Whitehaven

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, tec said:

Thanks for the clarification, so that's a yes then to my previous post and obviously not from clubs that are bust because that would be impossible as they wouldn't exist.

No, your assertion, which is common amongst some perennial lower division club fans, is that without their semi-pro club's existence, junior player production would stop. Not only is this plainly false, it also serves to falsely equate the community game and the semi professional game in a way that only ever seems to be of benefit to the latter.

[tec]

24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

No, your assertion, which is common amongst some perennial lower division club fans, is that without their semi-pro club's existence, junior player production would stop. Not only is this plainly false, it also serves to falsely equate the community game and the semi professional game in a way that only ever seems to be of benefit to the latter.

Your assumption is wrong. I realise all clubs from top to bottom have a part to play in the development  of players. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, tec said:

Your assumption is wrong. I realise all clubs from top to bottom have a part to play in the development  of players. 

Those that actually produce (and then subsequently train at an elite level) players playing the important parts of course.

[groundhopper]

This seems a negative thread.

The reality for most Championship 1 clubs that don’t own their ground is they need a backer. The figures shown for the unpaid wages indicate the average wage depending on the squad size to be c£250/300 per week even with a backer. To put your body on the line against full time players and to have to travel for hours on a coach, this is not a lot.,

My 17 year old has taken on a part time summer job and will be earning close to the lower of the above figures for making Ice cream

The main issue the club face long term is either too high wages which can be dismissed, or too little income. Cutting wages leads to poorer results and lower crowds.

Increasing income requires investment in facilities or the squad. Even if carried out the extra support may not equate to the win bonuses.

i don’t believe you can run a championship team on gates of under 1000 without the backer but as we have seen relying on the backer is dangerous.

I don’t think Whitehaven have done anything wrong and are right to try and avoid relegation, especially with fewer home matches being the result along with lower central funding and minimal away support.

Overall I would challenge those saying the club are badly run to draw up a successful business plan that results in the club making a profit and sustainable growth.

I have no idea of the answer as to how many clubs have a significant backer and would be in trouble without their financial input throughout the three divisions but I guess it is at best a significant minority

We cannot as a sport afford to lose Cumbria. 
There would be nowhere else in the UK that could replace it, 

[Keep The Faith]

3 hours ago, groundhopper said:

This seems a negative thread.

The reality for most Championship 1 clubs that don’t own their ground is they need a backer. The figures shown for the unpaid wages indicate the average wage depending on the squad size to be c£250/300 per week even with a backer. To put your body on the line against full time players and to have to travel for hours on a coach, this is not a lot.,

My 17 year old has taken on a part time summer job and will be earning close to the lower of the above figures for making Ice cream

The main issue the club face long term is either too high wages which can be dismissed, or too little income. Cutting wages leads to poorer results and lower crowds.

Increasing income requires investment in facilities or the squad. Even if carried out the extra support may not equate to the win bonuses.

i don’t believe you can run a championship team on gates of under 1000 without the backer but as we have seen relying on the backer is dangerous.

I don’t think Whitehaven have done anything wrong and are right to try and avoid relegation, especially with fewer home matches being the result along with lower central funding and minimal away support.

Overall I would challenge those saying the club are badly run to draw up a successful business plan that results in the club making a profit and sustainable growth.

I have no idea of the answer as to how many clubs have a significant backer and would be in trouble without their financial input throughout the three divisions but I guess it is at best a significant minority

We cannot as a sport afford to lose Cumbria. 
There would be nowhere else in the UK that could replace it, 

Workington must be going something right crowds over a 1000 this year 

no offence to league one you’d surely be watching the better standard of rugby… in the championship 

Are Whitehaven fans fed up of not been up there as they were in the past? 

[Marrafan]

30 minutes ago, Keep The Faith said:

Workington must be going something right crowds over a 1000 this year 

no offence to league one you’d surely be watching the better standard of rugby… in the championship 

Are Whitehaven fans fed up of not been up there as they were in the past? 

Think Sunday was the first crowd figure they’ve announced for 2 years.

[gittinsfan]

8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Didn't realise Whitehaven ran an academy that produced Super League players! Thanks for the info.

The poster did'nt suggest they did.But you knew that and still could'nt resist the sarcastic comment.

[Tommygilf]

7 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

The poster did'nt suggest they did.But you knew that and still could'nt resist the sarcastic comment.

No he suggested something far sillier that the community game, which produces players, is somehow dependent on the semi pro game and Super League will die without the latter because of this integral link.

Such delusional comments deserve sarcasm.

[dkw]

8 hours ago, Marrafan said:

Think Sunday was the first crowd figure they’ve announced for 2 years.

And?

[Roughyed Rats]

15 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

The vast majority do come from academies, and indeed a lot of those who "come from the championship and League 1" were in SL academies at some point.

And the vast majority are released and would be lost to the game if there wasn't any RL outside of SL. Tyler Dupree is a prime example when, ahead of his England debut, he publicly stated that if it wasn't for the opportunity to play at Oldham he would simply have left the game.  

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Roughyed Rats said:

And the vast majority are released and would be lost to the game if there wasn't any RL outside of SL. Tyler Dupree is a prime example when, ahead of his England debut, he publicly stated that if it wasn't for the opportunity to play at Oldham he would simply have left the game.  

This the same Tyler Dupree who returned to Super League to play for at the time the only club without an academy? Something in that isn't there.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Didn't realise Whitehaven ran an academy that produced Super League players! Thanks for the info.

You know what he means Tommy, no need to be so facetious.

If Championship/L1 clubs go to the wall no matter how big or small they are that is the focal point of the sport vanishing from the town, it won't happen immediately but the community game in those towns will be effected in due course because of it, all the lads who graduate to academies don't come from cities/towns who run academies, being a Leeds fan you should be well aware of that.

@tec is quite right, reducing funding to clubs such as Haven is cause for grave concern, but the likes of Leneghan who suggested a couple or three years ago (and I recall that you have concurred on occasion) that all the earned funding should be directed to SL, is either the words of someone who can't see the woods for the trees and envisage what the consequences could be, or someone who has no feeling whatsoever for the game as a whole just so long as "I'm alright Jack".

[Daft old hooker]

I have to say looking at the comments on this thread there seems to be a split between the fans of SL clubs and the leagues below them. 

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You know what he means Tommy, no need to be so facetious.

If Championship/L1 clubs go to the wall no matter how big or small they are that is the focal point of the sport vanishing from the town, it won't happen immediately but the community game in those towns will be effected in due course because of it, all the lads who graduate to academies don't come from cities/towns who run academies, being a Leeds fan you should be well aware of that.

@tec is quite right, reducing funding to clubs such as Haven is cause for grave concern, but the likes of Leneghan who suggested a couple or three years ago (and I recall that you have concurred on occasion) that all the earned funding should be directed to SL, is either the words of someone who can't see the woods for the trees and envisage what the consequences could be, or someone who has no feeling whatsoever for the game as a whole just so long as "I'm alright Jack".

Are they the focal point? Really? 

How many kids in the heavy woollen district run around in Super League club gear rather than Dewsbury or Batley? How many in Cumbria are the same? A lot I suspect given the club shop at Haven at the moment.

I'll accept that in outpost areas, and/or areas that haven't got a long deep rooted heritage in the game, professional clubs can be the focal point and often are what keeps the fledgling community game going. Its preposterous to say the same about semi pro clubs in established RL areas. It doesn't do justice to the community game in that area and frankly insults the hard work so many put in week to week whilst (semi) pro clubs play roulette that they are never going to win each year.

I've never said that all funding should go to Super League clubs.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Tommygilf

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Daft old hooker said:

I have to say looking at the comments on this thread there seems to be a split between the fans of SL clubs and the leagues below them. 

Tbf, the most anti Haven bucket collection poster on this thread is a York fan...

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, Daft old hooker said:

I have to say looking at the comments on this thread there seems to be a split between the fans of SL clubs and the leagues below them. 

I'm a fan of a SL club, albeit a new one this season.

[Roughyed Rats]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

This the same Tyler Dupree who returned to Super League to play for at the time the only club without an academy? Something in that isn't there.

And your point is? The reality is, without clubs outside SL, many talented young players would not get the opportunity to play and would be lost to the game. It's really no more complicated than that.

[Fevrover]

17 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You know what he means Tommy, no need to be so facetious.

If Championship/L1 clubs go to the wall no matter how big or small they are that is the focal point of the sport vanishing from the town, it won't happen immediately but the community game in those towns will be effected in due course because of it, all the lads who graduate to academies don't come from cities/towns who run academies, being a Leeds fan you should be well aware of that.

@tec is quite right, reducing funding to clubs such as Haven is cause for grave concern, but the likes of Leneghan who suggested a couple or three years ago (and I recall that you have concurred on occasion) that all the earned funding should be directed to SL, is either the words of someone who can't see the woods for the trees and envisage what the consequences could be, or someone who has no feeling whatsoever for the game as a whole just so long as "I'm alright Jack".

It's the Iam alright Jack attitude imo and he's not the only one.

 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Roughyed Rats said:

And your point is? The reality is, without clubs outside SL, many talented young players would not get the opportunity to play and would be lost to the game. It's really no more complicated than that.

I've never said that isn't the case. I'd rather not have those clubs be going bust on a delusion though or having a misplaced sense of importance...

[Roughyed Rats]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I've never said that isn't the case. I'd rather not have those clubs be going bust on a delusion though or having a misplaced sense of importance...

Wow. That comment sums up exactly what's wrong with our game. 

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Are they the focal point? Really? 

How many kids in the heavy woollen district run around in Super League club gear rather than Dewsbury or Batley? How many in Cumbria are the same? A lot I suspect given the club shop at Haven at the moment.

I'll accept that in outpost areas, and/or areas that haven't got a long deep rooted heritage in the game, professional clubs can be the focal point and often are what keeps the fledgling community game going. Its preposterous to say the same about semi pro clubs in established RL areas. It doesn't do justice to the community game in that area and frankly insults the hard work so many put in week to week whilst (semi) pro clubs play roulette that they are never going to win each year.

When Leigh were in the 'no man's land' of the Championship in the licencing years the club endeavoured to keep the interest of the young un's going by offering 3 free under 16's season tickets to every full season ticket holder, lots of those kids populated the junior sections of the community clubs in the town, if the pro club wasn't there doing that and no matter at what the level the pro player's where at who were idols for those kids I doubt that as many would have taken up the sport but found some other game/pastime to get involved with, take clubs out of towns and you are removing the initial interest in the sport, and those kids in the heavy woollens won't be wearing RL shirts of any description.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[RP London]

15 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Are they the focal point? Really? 

How many kids in the heavy woollen district run around in Super League club gear rather than Dewsbury or Batley? How many in Cumbria are the same? A lot I suspect given the club shop at Haven at the moment.

I'll accept that in outpost areas, and/or areas that haven't got a long deep rooted heritage in the game, professional clubs can be the focal point and often are what keeps the fledgling community game going. Its preposterous to say the same about semi pro clubs in established RL areas. It doesn't do justice to the community game in that area and frankly insults the hard work so many put in week to week whilst (semi) pro clubs play roulette that they are never going to win each year.

I've never said that all funding should go to Super League clubs.

I'm glad you posted this as I was about to comment with regards Sheffield and the fact that without the Eagles the fledgling junior set ups wouldnt even be fledgling and that seeps further south than here too (not sure quite how far south you could say though). 

Its great sitting here saying Cumbria would survive without Haven but how true is that really? how much does having Haven mean that the community game up there is strong. without being there and seeing the interaction I think it is very hard to judge how much you could lose quite a chunk of Cumbria with that one loss, and the knock on to that could be the end of Workington and the rest of Cumbria.. 

I agree with you about places like the heavy woollen district where the SL is right there but in other areas, those outpost areas, how much is it dependent on the semi pro teams being there as a focal point... we can speculate but only those involved up there could really tell us. 

Any club going bust is a loss to the game, how big a loss and what that impact is is hard to tell until it happens sadly.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Roughyed Rats said:

Wow. That comment sums up exactly what's wrong with our game. 

In short, yeah. Whitehaven are an equivalent 7th to 8th tier sized football club in a not very well off area and should be financially managed as such. Spaffing money up the wall on lost causes that then can't be paid for, instead of investing in the community level of the game, is exactly why the game is in the situation its in.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

When Leigh were in the 'no man's land' of the Championship in the licencing years the club endeavoured to keep the interest of the young un's going by offering 3 free under 16's season tickets to every full season ticket holder, lots of those kids populated the junior sections of the community clubs in the town, if the pro club wasn't there doing that and no matter at what the level of the pro player's where at who were idols for those kids I doubt that as many would have taken up the sport but found some other game/pastime to get involved with, take clubs out of towns and you are removing the initial interest in the sport, and those kids in the heavy woollens won't be wearing RL shirts of any description.

 

The fact that Leigh and Whitehaven are even in the same discussion highlights the major problem we have that I initially posted on this thread. They're on different planets.

We have a compressed pyramid that forces together clubs, particularly in the middle tier, who are on different planes of existence and ideally would be in separate leagues to account for that.

[Roughyed Rats]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

In short, yeah. Whitehaven are an equivalent 7th to 8th tier sized football club in a not very well off area and should be financially managed as such. Spaffing money up the wall on lost causes that then can't be paid for, instead of investing in the community level of the game, is exactly why the game is in the situation its in.

With the greatest of respect, I'd suggest that comments about clubs outside SL 'having a misplaced sense of importance' is symptomatic of the 'I'm alright Jack' mentality in our sport and that has contributed to a huge split in the game and loss of community......and that's exactly why the game is in the situation it's in.