What would your plan for Wales, Ireland and Scotland be?

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, jim_57 said:

It’s not Wales, Ireland or Scotland but in regards to improving NH opponents I think France with England’s backing should lobby together to get the residency rule changed back to 3 years, but for tier 2 nations only. 5 years still for tier 1 to prevent/delay a repeat of Radradra.

Just a simple thing that could help them improve and it helps combat the heritage factor other nations have used to launch above them. Doesn’t really change much for any nation other than France and could help them improve which can only be good for International RL.

Not sure who fits the bill currently but they’ve had the likes of Greenshields and Kheirallah in the past. If it only meant another 1-2 professional players available it would be a pretty simple win. Wales would also get the occasional player become eligible through Crusaders for that matter.

I'm afraid I disagree with this.

I find heritage rules understandable - If I had one French parent and one British parent, I would be equally French and British. With grandparents - just one generation removed from that, you are likely to have a personal link to a heritage culture, even if you are just one quarter (for example) French.

As someone with four British grandparents, if I were to get a job in France and live there for three or five years, I would not be French - I would just live there. A British, Australian, New Zealander player who gets a three year contract playing for Catalans is still a foreigner living in France for work.

I can understand someone who has moved to another country as a child considering that to be their home country or a refugee who eventually identifies with a new country if there is no opportunity to return home. But three, even five, years (essentially the length of a work contract for a player) doesn't sit right with me.

If you can convince me that there is a good reason why three years should be considered a good time to establish a real link to a new country, then I'll happily reconsider. But what is the justification for reducing the time to three years for tier two?

If it is simply to help the French national team, then that is not a good basis to change a rule - we shouldn't set rules to aid any one team or nation. Why do you think it only takes three years to establish a link with a tier two nation (eg, to 'become French') whereas it takes five years of residency to 'become' English or Australian?

Edited November 7, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Barley Mow]

The one thing I would change about the residency rule is that once you have obtained residency status, you shouldn't lose it if you move out of that country.

If you have 'become French' you don't stop being French by moving out of France.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Big Picture]

46 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

The one thing I would change about the residency rule is that once you have obtained residency status, you shouldn't lose it if you move out of that country.

If you have 'become French' you don't stop being French by moving out of France.

That would only work when it's permanent resident status though.

[Barley Mow]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

That would only work when it's permanent resident status though.

The current rules accept that someone would become French for the purposes of international rugby league by living in France for five years.

I don't see why someone who has been accepted as French by the IRL loses that status if they move elsewhere.

Mikołaj Olędzki is considered English because of the amount of time he has lived here. If he gets a contract with a club in the NRL and moves to Australia, that doesn't make him any more or less English - but under the current rules as I understand them, he would then be ineligible to play for England because he is no longer resident.

That rule could be changed without the need for anything else changing.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Barley Mow

[jim_57]

9 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

I'm afraid I disagree with this.

I find heritage rules understandable - If I had one French parent and one British parent, I would be equally French and British. With grandparents - just one generation removed from that, you are likely to have a personal link to a heritage culture, even if you are just one quarter (for example) French.

As someone with four British grandparents, if I were to get a job in France and live there for three or five years, I would not be French - I would just live there. A British, Australian, New Zealander player who gets a three year contract playing for Catalans is still a foreigner living in France for work.

I can understand someone who has moved to another country as a child considering that to be their home country or a refugee who eventually identifies with a new country if there is no opportunity to return home. But three, even five, years (essentially the length of a work contract for a player) doesn't sit right with me.

If you can convince me that there is a good reason why three years should be considered a good time to establish a real link to a new country, then I'll happily reconsider. But what is the justification for reducing the time to three years for tier two?

If it is simply to help the French national team, then that is not a good basis to change a rule - we shouldn't set rules to aid any one team or nation. Why do you think it only takes three years to establish a link with a tier two nation (eg, to 'become French') whereas it takes five years of residency to 'become' English or Australian?

To be quite honest I don’t have a grand argument that would convince you residency players could establish a “real link” it would simply be to help tier 2 nations who have established RL presence in their countries. France would be the main beneficiary currently, maybe in time others will benefit.

Plenty would have a reasonably strong connection with that place after living and working there for 3 years which is a fair chunk of a playing career. The rule used to be 3 years and I don’t remember much jumping up and down until tier 1 nations starting using it (Fa’asavalu, Radradra etc). I’m pretty sure it remains 3 years for other sports as well. 

On that note the Kangaroos are technically still using it for players like Nanai, they tried it for Mulitalo and it would have worked if not for the Origin age, this a guy who looked the most passionate kiwi you could meet in the recent games. Don’t be too surprised if they make a play for someone like Kikau one of these years.

I am personally past the point of caring too much about the rights and wrongs in this kind of things, at this point a bit of selfishness wouldn’t hurt. No I wouldn’t feel French if I lived there for 3 years but if we’re going to go down that path how many in the Italian World Cup side feel Italian? How many of the Cook Islands Team? The bar is pretty low already in that regard. Having France run out with a residency player or 2 won’t make a world of difference.

Edited November 7, 2023 by jim_57

[WelshpoolMarauder]

On 06/11/2023 at 13:00, gogledd said:

Wales don't ave any full time staff as far as I know.

I know Ian very well and agree he is passionate about Rugby League in Wales and as a journalist has raised the profile of all variations of the game. But I know Ian will be the first to say, hes not a player, coach or manager, he's not a development officer and although he works his sock off, he's limited in his influence outside the press box.

We do have some passionate and dedicated people in Wales Rugby League such as Mark Jones the current CEO, Steve Jones the Wales Wheelchair Development Officer - but they're working within severe financial constraints; the WRL really doesn't have any money and needs help from the RFL and others to ensure Wales remains a viable competitive RL nation.

That's all very true, sadly. Isn't it sad that a country with a proud and storied history in the game, that has produced some of the great names of the game, doesn't have any full time staff?

Even sadder, I'm not sure what can be done about it.

Wales isn't inherently an anti-RL country, despite the official position  for a long time (I never came across a player who didn't have the utmost respect for the game when I was playing union and espoused my love for the game,many even talked about how they followed the likes of Wigan and Saints). A more visible Welsh team, playing regularly, can help the game grow in Wales, regardless of who they play and what the score is.

[Tommygilf]

There's a clear difference between Wales and Scotland/Ireland here.

Wales have the structures in place but not the finances. To me they should be guaranteed a match against England annually, perhaps in a mid/pre season series with France (and potentially A.N. Other). Ideally you'd want the WRL to run it, but for the short term, perhaps RFL hosted (and underwritten) matches make more sense. To me its an ideal England match to host in the South West, Birmingham or even London. Whether the RFL would be willing to underwrite an ENG V WAL game in Wales I'm not sure, but if they could to start with it would be awesome.

Scotland were on the field the NH's Tonga for a brief while, the only NH side to take points from the big 3 in a four nations (indeed the only 4th nation to do so), and they provided England the strongest test I have seen from a NH side in my lifetime, bar maybe Lebanon more recently. They really do feel like an opportunity squandered.

Ireland are an interesting side. Despite comments there are foundational works going on, there just remains this tension between heritage and non-heritage players in the system. IMO Ireland have the capability to be as competitive on field as France or Lebanon for example, and for England would provide a decent test against a publicly recognised if paper thin nation.

Ultimately, to get the likes of the BBC and media attention, England, and therefore the RFL, have to be involved in raising the profile of these nations. They would benefit from it massively as would, mid to long term, the RFL and England. 

Our major problem with this is twofold:

1. Myopia and lack of imagination from the RFL. (I was going to say competence but I'm in a good mood). See the recent Tonga test series, World Cup, and every squandered opportunity for international RL over the past 15 or so years. They would look a gift horse in the mouth and seem determined to do events and series poorly. 

2. The RFL are skint. Partially due to reason 1., the RFL likely don't have the money to do this. We've just seen the national team sponsored by a small 2nd tier University a week out from a test series. The RFL seem incapable if maintaining and retaining sponsors save for those already personally connected with the sport in some way. Again partially due to reason 1., they are incapable of committing to anything that they think won't instantly make lots of money and therefore have taken the cut back and retreat approach.

[Damien]

8 hours ago, WelshpoolMarauder said:

That's all very true, sadly. Isn't it sad that a country with a proud and storied history in the game, that has produced some of the great names of the game, doesn't have any full time staff?

Even sadder, I'm not sure what can be done about it.

Wales isn't inherently an anti-RL country, despite the official position  for a long time (I never came across a player who didn't have the utmost respect for the game when I was playing union and espoused my love for the game,many even talked about how they followed the likes of Wigan and Saints). A more visible Welsh team, playing regularly, can help the game grow in Wales, regardless of who they play and what the score is.

Wales have done an amazing job to be where they are with no/little resources. I can only imagine how strong Wales could be if any real attempt had been made to develop the game in Wales by the RFL. Even if the original SL plan of a Cardiff team would have been really exciting at that time with the players Wales had at their disposal.

[JT RL]

On 06/11/2023 at 22:18, Eddie said:

Who’s going to give the French a few million? 

Sell the tv rights - 10 year horizon

Private equity - 10 year competition rights

Super League 

The French municipality 

Regional fund

 

 

 

[clwydianrange]

11 hours ago, Damien said:

Wales have done an amazing job to be where they are with no/little resources. I can only imagine how strong Wales could be if any real attempt had been made to develop the game in Wales by the RFL. Even if the original SL plan of a Cardiff team would have been really exciting at that time with the players Wales had at their disposal.

League needs a team in South Wales as that’s where the population and the players are. Young players are taken on board by super league clubs on a regular basis. If there was a dedicated pathway to play league professionally in the area more lads would switch from union  and the game of league overall would benefit.

[Midlands hobo]

18 minutes ago, clwydianrange said:

League needs a team in South Wales as that’s where the population and the players are. Young players are taken on board by super league clubs on a regular basis. If there was a dedicated pathway to play league professionally in the area more lads would switch from union  and the game of league overall would benefit.

Some of the crusaders lads are just winding down their careers or have recently retired. Hardly anyone (Grace maybe) have come out of the south Wales in the last decade. The crusaders produced in a few years a number of players. Just think about what has been lost in the last 10 years.

[ghost crayfish]

My plan:

1. Shorten Super League season to create room 

2. Mid-year 4 nations tournament - 3 weeks plus final - this is played on stand-alone weekends in the middle of the season. 

3. Post-season - Great Britain & Ireland plays against southern hemisphere teams, either home or away 

4. Post-season - bottom ranked 4N team plays the team that missed out for the right to participate next season

5. Post-season - France plays a game against southern hemisphere tourists.

They need to back this up with a number of actions at Super League level, such as committing to Toulouse and Catalans in the top tier, making it compulsory for every English club to have a junior pathway program with either Wales, Scotland or Ireland, and maybe an 'on the road' round of Challenge Cup matches to promote the game.

To do the 'on the road' element, they could seek bids from councils in Wales, Scotland, or Ireland - host one international that year, and also host one SL/CC game earlier to promote it - similar to the way the 2013 RLWC worked, get those host councils to promote the games (might be better to do double headers), and in return you can hopefully offer them the tourism boost of a few thousand SL fans visiting their town for the weekend.

I doubt SL clubs would agree to losing more home games, so that's why I suggest Challenge Cup - it may have the added bonus of promoting the cup.

Edited November 9, 2023 by ghost crayfish

[2blackrooks]

When the RFL supported central funding  for development officers Scotland actually had a blossoming domestic league, and it’s no coincidence when this stopped the league slowly disintegrated. We currently have 3 definite teams in Edinburgh Forth Valley and Glasgow, all run by enthusiastic volunteers who regularly get 20+ down to training, Aberdeen have been long participants of the league but unsure if they will appear in 2024 and Fife struggled last year but hopefully they may be back. Strathmore again a regular participant a union club who did really well in the league have been absent recently, so it’s pretty much in the air at the moment and the SRL are not the best at keeping anyone informed, or promoting the game up here.
There is a new structure in place at the top and are keen to get the ‘A’ Team back playing internationals and they have been working hard at the U19 U16 level and Wheelchair Rugby. 
Edinburgh have always done well, even winning the NERL championship over the border but how long can they last playing in a 3 team league each year, before folk get bored at the lack of games. 
we need a regular well attended league with the A Team going out and playing the likes of the Ireland Wales A teams Netherlands Czech rep Serbia. 8 plus games a year so it gives an incentive to local players to look at RL as an alternative. I know for a fact many Union players love RL up here and are fed up of the SRU destroying there beloved game.

I’ve always thought our clubs linking up with our Cumbrian cousins, creating a pathway for our players and, linking in to all that experience.

But we have no cash, the will is there but no means to move forward.

As for the other home nations I’d put a lot of effort into Wales and France, established leagues and history, and is the closest thing locally to a strong opposition. Yeah it’s going to take years to build them up but in the long run it would pay off. A missed trick not getting Tonga to play warm ups against Wales and France, maybe just maybe Tonga would have pushed England more. Also bring back Yorkshire Lancashire Cumbria matches

[Gomersall]

3 minutes ago, 2blackrooks said:

When the RFL supported central funding  for development officers Scotland actually had a blossoming domestic league, and it’s no coincidence when this stopped the league slowly disintegrated. We currently have 3 definite teams in Edinburgh Forth Valley and Glasgow, all run by enthusiastic volunteers who regularly get 20+ down to training, Aberdeen have been long participants of the league but unsure if they will appear in 2024 and Fife struggled last year but hopefully they may be back. Strathmore again a regular participant a union club who did really well in the league have been absent recently, so it’s pretty much in the air at the moment and the SRL are not the best at keeping anyone informed, or promoting the game up here.
There is a new structure in place at the top and are keen to get the ‘A’ Team back playing internationals and they have been working hard at the U19 U16 level and Wheelchair Rugby. 
Edinburgh have always done well, even winning the NERL championship over the border but how long can they last playing in a 3 team league each year, before folk get bored at the lack of games. 
we need a regular well attended league with the A Team going out and playing the likes of the Ireland Wales A teams Netherlands Czech rep Serbia. 8 plus games a year so it gives an incentive to local players to look at RL as an alternative. I know for a fact many Union players love RL up here and are fed up of the SRU destroying there beloved game.

I’ve always thought our clubs linking up with our Cumbrian cousins, creating a pathway for our players and, linking in to all that experience.

But we have no cash, the will is there but no means to move forward.

As for the other home nations I’d put a lot of effort into Wales and France, established leagues and history, and is the closest thing locally to a strong opposition. Yeah it’s going to take years to build them up but in the long run it would pay off. A missed trick not getting Tonga to play warm ups against Wales and France, maybe just maybe Tonga would have pushed England more. Also bring back Yorkshire Lancashire Cumbria matches

I don’t think there has been any activity in Aberdeen since the Warriors made a fleeting comeback in 2021.

[2blackrooks]

Aberdeen were all set to play last year but pulled out due to some concerns with the organisation and safety. They are active on social media to an extent but time will tell if they join this year 

[JM2010]

The irony of this thread is that the nations mentioned in the OP will probably be playing in a European competition next year whereas England don’t have anything planned 

[langpark]

1 hour ago, 2blackrooks said:

We need a regular well attended league with the A Team going out and playing the likes of the Ireland Wales A teams Netherlands Czech rep Serbia. 8 plus games a year so it gives an incentive to local players to look at RL as an alternative. 

Agree with you on the Cumbria idea. And I almost agree with you on this. Except for one minor (major) detail. Why must it be Scotland A? Give these homegrown lads full international honours and their moment in the spotlight that they deserve. There is absolutely no shame in playing against those minnow nations you mention (and even possibly losing to some), the important thing is that it will kickstart some excitement back in Scotland. These players will no longer feel like they are the "background characters", but the main stars, and the momentum will build from there. 

Case in point. Greece do this regularly and the game is steadily on the rise over there. 

2019 they beat Serbia 82-6 as they had a majority heritage team. Now, in May 2023, they fielded an all-domestic team and lost to Serbia 40-6. They probably know full well that that would happen but there was no talk of "Greece A" or anything like that. It will was full international. It also attracted 1000+ spectators. 

So my opinion is, keep treating them as 2nd class citizens and they will likely treat you the same way, and give priority to their local union team over their local RL team.