England vs Samoa Series

[Mathius Hellwege]

28 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

A 5-team round robin would take them 5 weeks to play. A 4-team round robin takes only 3 weeks. There's no way they're going to extend the comp by another 2 weeks.

yes

our maximum dreams would be

1. one 4N in a WC Cycle (obviously always in the SH due to the 1:3 relationship). At least they could bump one ream down and have another 4N
2. one series against Australia in a WCcycle
3. one series against NZ in a WCcycle
4. WC

I do not beleive it will happen, but after we screwed Tonga up in the M62 corridor that is our only shor-term/SH realistical hope. We have to build up the NH

[BristolDevonCharlie]

6 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

I don't blame Samoa.

They looked at the Tonga series and saw the venues, attendances, weather, ref interpretations, and the overall mood. They feel that they are better served by playing Down Under.

I think Tonga v Samoa does more for the international game TBH.

I liked the Exiles concept. I hope England either go with that or a two-game series in France. A full-strength France are a good team.

Maybe logical from an English perspective but why would France opt out of qualifying for a World Cup just to give England a game?

[GeordieSaint]

The NH, particularly England and the RFL, need to realise the NRL don’t want or need England to be successful. Yet the RFL and England continue to chase the Australians. You can see it seeping out of the fan base on social media… Australia this, Australia that, who good was the Ashes etc etc. Times have changed. The RFL and NH RL needs to wake up before it is completely left in the abyss. 

[StandOffHalf]

11 minutes ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

Maybe logical from an English perspective but why would France opt out of qualifying for a World Cup just to give England a game?

France have to do what's best for them, but I think they should be in the World Cup without qualifying.

Hopefully they'll beat whoever they have to to secure their spot and then are free for an England series post-season in 2024.

[Damien]

6 hours ago, Mojo said:

Well said. The best way to sell the international game is watching a full stadium on TV. Like I said before on this forum Samoa vs Tonga is the biggest international match in the world. You can't go two years without organising a match between the two nations in front of a packed stadium. If we want origin to be the back burner we need the aussies to be beaten more often and the international games to be sold out and that's what Samoa vs Tonga can do.

The International rugby league board needs to organise at least a 3 game series for Samoa and Tonga in Auckland,  Wellington and Sydney in 2025. Those games will be sold out if not near sold out. It'll give the game a good look and not the half empty stadium that we saw in the final.

The thing is we should be doing both and matches like Tonga v Samoa should be happening mid season. The issue we see now are coming into play because the NRL wishes to condense the international game into 3 end of season games.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

20 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

France have to do what's best for them, but I think they should be in the World Cup without qualifying.

I think virtually everyone should have to qualify for the WC (barring host nation and holders). It would instantly provide us with many more meaningful international matches. England v France/Wales/Whoever would still be as one-sided as always, but at least the matches would count for something.

People love to compare RL to football when it comes to P&R, so why don't we try and take other lessons from football's world cup? They have cycles of qualifiers > major tournament > qualifiers > major tournament. It fills their non-tournament years with meaningful games. Why don't we do this? We could spin 2 years' worth of European internationals out in to WC qualifiers, with home and away games against the likes of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Greece. whoever. It wouldn't be the highest standard of game, but at least it would have meaning that the public could understand. It would be much easier to publicise games as well - advertising England v Italy as a World-Cup qualifier instantly gives it far more gravitas than a random one-off game.

[Mathius Hellwege]

four weeks, four games...that is why they are maing a 4Ntournament in 24

[londonrlfan]

Loads of comments about Fiji, PNG and France. But Fiji and PNG are in the Pacific Bowl and Fiji are hosting it, while France are in the WCQ and shouldn't be given automatic qualification just to give Eng a game. France need to start winning more games.

The only option is Lebanon, and I don't see how the RFL can think we're above playing them. Potentially one game in the Arabian gulf would be amazing, if doable? Otherwise it could potentially promote RL in this country to a new audience, ie Muslims and Arabic speakers. 

Knowing the RFL though, it will be two games v the All Stars at Leigh and Warrington. 

[londonrlfan]

If we didn't replace our second major international tournament, with outdated 3 test series, we wouldn't have had this problem. 

[Archie Gordon]

Does someone have the schedule for the WCQ games next Autumn? Or do we just have 'October/November'? Or even just '2024'?

[Mojo]

3 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

as a Samoa supporter were you wanting to play in pacific cup or tour England?

Turning down a Tier 1 nations invitation especially from a Tier 2 nation like samoa must've been tough but I also get why they did it.

Samoa vs Tonga needed to be done. Especially for both nations fan base. They both owe it to the fans.

I feel for England because they're a very good team and they would've given the Kiwis and Kangaroos a good run for there money.

But the pacific  cup is still new and it needs to grow and having all of the SH nations in it next year could take it to another level. We need the international game to be better then Origin, and playing in full stadiums with a huge atmosphere can take the international game to another level.

Personally I don't see the Samoa vs Tonga ever having a 3 game series because the nrl will be worried it'll overtake Origin and the kangaroos will definitely lose all of their heritage players.

Currently there's 45% of pacific islanders in the nrl and it's growing every year.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Does someone have the schedule for the WCQ games next Autumn? Or do we just have 'October/November'? Or even just '2024'?

I suspect it's just '2024' at this point. Maybe not even that...

[londonrlfan]

2 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Does someone have the schedule for the WCQ games next Autumn? Or do we just have 'October/November'? Or even just '2024'?

No they're not scheduled, but the World Series is in 2025, so when else would they be? A 10 team WC with 9 automatic qualifiers isn't a WC, but an invitational tournament. 

[londonrlfan]

Ideal scenario, would be something like this:

Year 1: World Cup

Year 2: Regional qualifiers for the Second Major international tournament, ie Intercontinental Cup 

Year 3: Intercontinental Cup - 8 teams from all regions

Year 4: World Cup qualifiers

Gives everyone meaningful games and has two big events every cycle to gear up to. Most major sports have World Champs and Olympics etc, football has the Euros, Cops America etc alongside the WC. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

Got all the talk here 

The absolute key question is 

What % of rugby league fans in this country care about internationals? 

Based on attendance I'd guess about 10% of those that care about club RL 

Like I said on an earlier post maybe club RL is our best chance of expansion....only started to feel like this recently but it makes sense for me now....I'm obviously playing catch up with the vast majority of RL fans 

[londonrlfan]

1 hour ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I think virtually everyone should have to qualify for the WC (barring host nation and holders). It would instantly provide us with many more meaningful international matches. England v France/Wales/Whoever would still be as one-sided as always, but at least the matches would count for something.

People love to compare RL to football when it comes to P&R, so why don't we try and take other lessons from football's world cup? They have cycles of qualifiers > major tournament > qualifiers > major tournament. It fills their non-tournament years with meaningful games. Why don't we do this? We could spin 2 years' worth of European internationals out in to WC qualifiers, with home and away games against the likes of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Greece. whoever. It wouldn't be the highest standard of game, but at least it would have meaning that the public could understand. It would be much easier to publicise games as well - advertising England v Italy as a World-Cup qualifier instantly gives it far more gravitas than a random one-off game.

Yep, the Pacific Cup/Bowl can even double up as qualifiers too. If we're only having 10 teams from now on, there shouldn't be any automatic qualifiers, except for the hosts. 

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

Loads of comments about Fiji, PNG and France. But Fiji and PNG are in the Pacific Bowl and Fiji are hosting it, while France are in the WCQ and shouldn't be given automatic qualification just to give Eng a game. France need to start winning more games.

The only option is Lebanon, and I don't see how the RFL can think we're above playing them. Potentially one game in the Arabian gulf would be amazing, if doable? Otherwise it could potentially promote RL in this country to a new audience, ie Muslims and Arabic speakers. 

Knowing the RFL though, it will be two games v the All Stars at Leigh and Warrington. 

Lebanon would be a loss maker, far fewer people would watch than have just watched the Tonga series. 

[Eddie]

36 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Does someone have the schedule for the WCQ games next Autumn? Or do we just have 'October/November'? Or even just '2024'?

If you asked the IRL that question I expect you’d get blank looks. 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

The absolute key question is 

What % of rugby league fans in this country care about internationals? 

Based on attendance I'd guess about 10% of those that care about club RL 

You're probably not far off with that estimation IMO, but we're talking 10% of a relatively small population.

For me the key question is how do we increase the total number of rugby league fans in this country, and unfortunately the club game just isn't going to engage many new supporters. It's the international game that captures the wider public's imagination. So either we become creative with our limited international options, or we give up on the international game, focus on the club game, but accept that we will gradually become less and less relevant to the rest of the country.

It's going to need a major case of ###### polishing, but I think England competing in world cup qualifiers would at least give us some meaningful games (albeit probably mostly one-sided). But these games would need to be marketed to the wider audience and not just aimed at the hardcore RL audience that is over-saturated with top level RL for 9 months a year.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Lebanon would be a loss maker, far fewer people would watch than have just watched the Tonga series. 

Every feasible option for England is likely to be a financial loss maker. Thought needs to be given to the non-monetary costs of England not playing games. And the RFL needs to be far more creative when staging games, and who they target their marketing at. If you played Lebanon, it would make sense to try and appeal to the circa 10k Lebanese ex-pats in London and staging a game down there.

[crashmon]

Hate to even ask this question

would it not be better to just accept England won't be playing any Internationals next year? Just write it off, and prepare for 2025 instead?

[londonrlfan]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Lebanon would be a loss maker, far fewer people would watch than have just watched the Tonga series. 

We don't know until we try

[jim_57]

PNG might be interested in being the replacement. I know they are meant to be in one of the Pacific comps but they will most likely not be promoted now because of Samoa’s decision (should be a playoff to decide, but there won’t be).

I could definitely understand them being somewhat dissatisfied with that and looking seriously at an offer to tour England, especially seeing as Fiji will be hosting so presumably no home games for them anyway. Playing 3 tests in England would be a tempting offer for them if the alternative is playing a half-strength Fiji and the Cook Islands again.

 

Alternatively I guess it’s going down and trying to find whatever games they can or inviting Lebanon over for a Northern Hemisphere 4N with France and Wales or Ireland.

Edited November 10, 2023 by jim_57

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, crashmon said:

Hate to even ask this question

would it not be better to just accept England won't be playing any Internationals next year? Just write it off, and prepare for 2025 instead?

Is 2025 definitely going to happen?...

[crashmon]

5 minutes ago, jim_57 said:

PNG might be interested in being the replacement. I know they are meant to be in one of the Pacific comps but they will most likely not be promoted now because of Samoa’s decision (should be a playoff to decide, but there won’t be).

I could definitely understand them being somewhat dissatisfied with that and looking seriously at an offer to tour England, especially seeing as Fiji will be hosting so presumably no home games for them anyway. Playing 3 tests in England would be a tempting offer for them if the alternative is playing a half-strength Fiji and the Cook Islands again.

 

Alternatively I guess it’s going down and trying to find whatever games they can or inviting Lebanon over for a Northern Hemisphere 4N with France and Wales or Ireland.

I think PNG mght be interested, but they probably would want England to tour them, rather than them coming over here