England vs Samoa Series

[Just Browny]

Let's not walk away from this debacle thinking it would have worked out fine if the games had been in London or if the teams had been announced on Wednesday instead of Friday.

Bilateral series just don't excite many people. You need genuine rivalry and genuine beef. A few away fans don't do harm either. We just don't have that with a country with fewer inhabitants than Hull, located 15,000km away. Australia yes, NZ barely, Samoa and Tonga no.

Only competition rugby is going to revive the international game, supported by good promotion, consistency and scheduling. The organisers have got just about everything wrong here with a Sunday game, comical ticketing and some 'safe' venues, but the product just isn't one that people are after. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Let's not walk away from this debacle thinking it would have worked out fine if the games had been in London or if the teams had been announced on Wednesday instead of Friday.

Bilateral series just don't excite many people. You need genuine rivalry and genuine beef. A few away fans don't do harm either. We just don't have that with a country with fewer inhabitants than Hull, located 15,000km away. Australia yes, NZ barely, Samoa and Tonga no.

Only competition rugby is going to revive the international game, supported by good promotion, consistency and scheduling. The organisers have got just about everything wrong here with a Sunday game, comical ticketing and some 'safe' venues, but the product just isn't one that people are after. 

I pretty much agree. Even in this version though we should be aiming for 20k, putting on a brilliant event and growing from there.

The kind of crowds we are likely to get are not dissimilar to eng v nz tests over the years.

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Let's not walk away from this debacle thinking it would have worked out fine if the games had been in London or if the teams had been announced on Wednesday instead of Friday.

Bilateral series just don't excite many people. You need genuine rivalry and genuine beef. A few away fans don't do harm either. We just don't have that with a country with fewer inhabitants than Hull, located 15,000km away. Australia yes, NZ barely, Samoa and Tonga no.

Only competition rugby is going to revive the international game, supported by good promotion, consistency and scheduling. The organisers have got just about everything wrong here with a Sunday game, comical ticketing and some 'safe' venues, but the product just isn't one that people are after. 

We looked at this already. There's no evidence that test series aren't as popular as a 3- or 4-nations.

[Archie Gordon]

Just now, Dave T said:

...

The kind of crowds we are likely to get are not dissimilar to eng v nz tests over the years.

Now it's my turn for a list.

You mean 37k, 67k, 44k?

 

[WN83]

Samoa fart ar*ing about coming over hasn't helped IMO. It's not even the short notice to put tickets on sale that I think is an issue but more the fact that even Samoa (and I say that with all due respect) don't seem overly enthused by the prospect of playing in the UK. Only 5 or 6 years ago it felt like it would be a huge honour for them to come here and be part of a two team series, rather than being tagged on to a 4 nations or whatever but as it is, we had to wait and wait for confirmation, then a game was cut so one of their star players could have his wedding and then him and a couple of his mates decided not to bother. It doesn't exactly scream out 'you don't want to miss this' in regards to fans attending. 

All that being said we should still be doing better in terms of organising 'an event' and then publicising it and there should be enough interest in the series to get a 20k plus crowd on in a hotbed of Rugby League like Wigan. 

[Mojo]

So when do the final line ups get announced? Is it today or on game day?

[WN83]

1 minute ago, Mojo said:

So when do the final line ups get announced? Is it today or on game day?

Hour or so before kick off now I'd imagine. 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Now it's my turn for a list.

You mean 37k, 67k, 44k?

 

From 1990 - 36k, 15k, 16k, 18.5k, 27.5k, 13.2k, 16k, 23k, 22k, 20k, 23k, 16k, 19k, 17k, 20k, 21k, 19k, 23k, 67k, 23k, 45k, 24k, 18k, 26k, 32k.

8 matches under 20k.

12 between 20-30k.

3 over 30k.

 

[Archie Gordon]

Just now, Dave T said:

From 1990 - 36k, 15k, 16k, 18.5k, 27.5k, 13.2k, 16k, 23k, 22k, 20k, 23k, 16k, 19k, 17k, 20k, 21k, 19k, 23k, 67k, 23k, 45k, 24k, 18k, 26k, 32k.

8 matches under 20k.

12 between 20-30k.

3 over 30k.

 

And the 3 of 23 over 30k were in London at premium stadiums. That is pretty much the point I'm making.

And I am guessing some of the 20-30k were at football grounds. The last two I recognise - 26k and 32k were at Anfield and Elland Road.

So not at NW SL grounds.

[Click]

Why are so many people suddenly surprised about how the team list is released in the week before a game in the UK? 

People acting like not having an exact 1-17 stifles discussion is crazy to me. When you have a 19 man squad and you can actually have a discussion about who in that 19 you think/would be played on the day, it is a key discussion point. 

The fact this thread is 94 pages and since the 19 man squad has been released I think I have only read perhaps 4 or 5 posts about the actual potential make up of the team - Makes me think it is just another thing to complain about, when there is so many other things I don't know why this has been picked up.

 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

And the 3 of 23 over 30k were in London at premium stadiums. That is pretty much the point I'm making.

And I am guessing some of the 20-30k were at football grounds. The last two I recognise - 26k and 32k were at Anfield and Elland Road.

So not at NW SL grounds.

Well no, the point you were making, which started this was that you suggested that NW SL grounds deliver poor crowds, despite Wigan's history of delivering decent crowds.

Nobody has ever argued that London don't deliver strong crowds. I've made that argument many times on this thread.

Wigan is a perfectly reasonable ground for this game, even if not a personal preference.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Dave T

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Click said:

Why are so many people suddenly surprised about how the team list is released in the week before a game in the UK? 

People acting like not having an exact 1-17 stifles discussion is crazy to me. When you have a 19 man squad and you can actually have a discussion about who in that 19 you think/would be played on the day, it is a key discussion point. 

The fact this thread is 94 pages and since the 19 man squad has been released I think I have only read perhaps 4 or 5 posts about the actual potential make up of the team - Makes me think it is just another thing to complain about, when there is so many other things I don't know why this has been picked up.

 

Yup. Major football matches only have the teams confirmed with an hour or so to go. Part of their build up is the speculation on selections etc. If people want to discuss players, battles etc. they can.

[N2022]

2 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

I'm with you.

As someone who uses cash and doesn't have a smartphone, I much prefer cash on the turnstile.

I get people liking cash on a tutnstile, especially if not big on phone tech.

But surely you and other people in that boat - as I was until not that long ago - understand that seats do get prebooked and might sell out before you make the journey. And the point the poster made about people wanting to join you on the day isn't a smartphone v printed ticket thing. It assumes sections of the ground aren't presold which could lead to a lot of disappointed supporters on the day

[EagleEyePie]

Outside of games against Australia and New Zealand, international RL isn't massively well supported. Even when we were drawing decent crowds against Australia and New Zealand in Four Nations tournaments we would see pretty poor crowds for the 'fourth nation' involved. The only exception was a 20k crowd against Scotland in Coventry with a shed load of freebies and heavily discounted tickets.

I can't remember the last time a tournament or series (outside of world cups) began at a venue outside the heartlands. Hull, Huddersfield, St Helens and Leigh have been typical opening venues in the last couple of decades. New Zealand tours would generally attract 20k+ attendances in the usual Super League areas.

Looking at past attendances, it seems Australia and New Zealand are the big draws. Tonga and Samoa don't have the same pulling power, just as the Home Nations and France don't.

[Dunbar]

46 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Let's not walk away from this debacle thinking it would have worked out fine if the games had been in London or if the teams had been announced on Wednesday instead of Friday.

Bilateral series just don't excite many people. You need genuine rivalry and genuine beef. A few away fans don't do harm either. We just don't have that with a country with fewer inhabitants than Hull, located 15,000km away. Australia yes, NZ barely, Samoa and Tonga no.

Only competition rugby is going to revive the international game, supported by good promotion, consistency and scheduling. The organisers have got just about everything wrong here with a Sunday game, comical ticketing and some 'safe' venues, but the product just isn't one that people are after. 

Completely disagree with this.

When France fell away from being competitive, and we were left with 3 nations able to give each other a decent game, we would have killed for a Samoan or Fifi or Tongan team with some world class talent to boost the international game.

If we are now saying it isn't enough, and not an appealing prospect then that is a travesty. 

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Completely disagree with this.

When France fell away from being competitive, and we were left with 3 nations able to give each other a decent game, we would have killed for a Samoan or Fifi or Tongan team with some world class talent to boost the international game.

If we are now saying it isn't enough, and not an appealing prospect then that is a travesty. 

I think there is a piece on managing one's own expectations. And I don't mean this to suggest a lack of ambition, but I think people are getting ahead of themselves. A couple of 18-20k crowds would be pretty solid. 

We haven't done the groundwork. We've never played series like this. The only history we have on stuff like this is shocking crowds against France, PNG and disappointing crowds last year versus Tonga.

I know people don't like to hear it, but this is the groundwork. Getting decent crowds in and getting fans into watching England and enjoying it is important. 

I do agree with the jist of JB's post that I agree we don't have huge interest for England v Samoa. That's not to say we never will, I've watched us play the Kiwis with 13k in. I think it's ok to admit that this series isn't as attractive as the Kiwis for example.

What we can't accept is outright incompetence in organising from pretty much all involved.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Dave T

[Click]

12 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

Outside of games against Australia and New Zealand, international RL isn't massively well supported. Even when we were drawing decent crowds against Australia and New Zealand in Four Nations tournaments we would see pretty poor crowds for the 'fourth nation' involved. The only exception was a 20k crowd against Scotland in Coventry with a shed load of freebies and heavily discounted tickets.

I can't remember the last time a tournament or series (outside of world cups) began at a venue outside the heartlands. Hull, Huddersfield, St Helens and Leigh have been typical opening venues in the last couple of decades. New Zealand tours would generally attract 20k+ attendances in the usual Super League areas.

Looking at past attendances, it seems Australia and New Zealand are the big draws. Tonga and Samoa don't have the same pulling power, just as the Home Nations and France don't.

Yeah, that is some of our points about how small time the RFL has been.

How can people have enough data to say that Tonga and Samoa don't have the same pulling power? 

The opposition doesn't even need to be the pull, the fact that England are actually playing a competitive game should be the draw.

[Just Browny]

13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Completely disagree with this.

When France fell away from being competitive, and we were left with 3 nations able to give each other a decent game, we would have killed for a Samoan or Fifi or Tongan team with some world class talent to boost the international game.

If we are now saying it isn't enough, and not an appealing prospect then that is a travesty. 

You can disagree but it won't create a buzz that doesn't exist. I'll be there at Headingley, with a very 6 year old very excited to see George Williams and Matty Ashton playing. But it's not just a few dozen of us on TRL who can dictate whether it's an exciting prospect or not - it's the people out there who decide whether to buy tickets or not.

I went to the Tonga games last year and it was as flat as anything, a deflating experience. I hope for better this time.

[Dave T]

As a bit of a reference point.

Australia have played Samoa 3 times at home in their history, all in the last 10 years.

18k, 13k 18k

The Kiwis have played Samoa 4 times at home in their history:

12k, 17k, 18k, 23k

These are places with large Samoan support.

I'll be disappointed if/when we fall short of 20k, but a bit of context/perspective is helpful imo.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

As a bit of a reference point.

Australia have played Samoa 3 times at home in their history, all in the last 10 years.

18k, 13k 18k

The Kiwis have played Samoa 4 times at home in their history:

12k, 17k, 18k, 23k

These are places with large Samoan support.

I'll be disappointed if/when we fall short of 20k, but a bit of context/perspective is helpful imo.

That certainly puts it into context. Australia and NZ, bar the 23k, getting those crowds against Samoa is really poor.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

That certainly puts it into context. Australia and NZ, bar the 23k, getting those crowds against Samoa is really poor.

There is a reason they aren't playing series' like this.

[Mojo]

43 minutes ago, Click said:

Why are so many people suddenly surprised about how the team list is released in the week before a game in the UK? 

People acting like not having an exact 1-17 stifles discussion is crazy to me. When you have a 19 man squad and you can actually have a discussion about who in that 19 you think/would be played on the day, it is a key discussion point. 

The fact this thread is 94 pages and since the 19 man squad has been released I think I have only read perhaps 4 or 5 posts about the actual potential make up of the team - Makes me think it is just another thing to complain about, when there is so many other things I don't know why this has been picked up.

 

In nz and Aus team list comes out 4 days before kick off and then it gets finalized on game day. I've said it in a previous post. It helps with the build up of the game. Fans will know there fav players are playing and what the make up if their team will look like.

You guys must be used to doing it that way I guess. But the fans here get pretty hyped when they see how there team lines up during the week to create a bit of excitement if whats to come on game day. Naming a 19 man squad without a clue on whos playing on game day is frustrating. Fans wants to get excited during the the week on which player will be facing who on the opposite side of the field. 

[sam4731]

We'd probably kill for a crowd of 19,320 this time.

Time for Denver?

[Mojo]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

That certainly puts it into context. Australia and NZ, bar the 23k, getting those crowds against Samoa is really poor.

You can't really compare those previous crowd numbers to the recent ones. You have to remember this samoan team came of age after the world cup. Next year they'll be in a tournament with the Kiwis and Tonga and I won't be surprised if every game out of those 3 nations gets sold out. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Mojo said:

You can't really compare those previous crowd numbers to the recent ones. You have to remember this samoan team came of age after the world cup. Next year they'll be in a tournament with the Kiwis and Tonga and I won't be surprised if every game out of those 3 nations gets sold out. 

Samoa have been playing and bubbling along for decade with NRL players. The 18k v Australia was last year. These crowds are very valid when we are looking to what expectations should be for a test match in England with a fraction of the Samoan support to call on.