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74 members have voted

  1. 1. War of the Roses.. Yes or No

    • Bring it back.
      31
    • Leave it in the past.
      43


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Posted
44 minutes ago, yipyee said:

They do, but not in big numbers, to make this a success then the current fans need to be on board AND then appeal to the wider Lancastrians (who won't see themselves as lancastrians)

Die hard RL fans will get on board but that's about it. 

With the cricket it's always been there and therfore accepted. 

This will be in all essence of the modern era , a new venture.

the marketable identity does not need to be overly Lancashire/Yorkshire centric. I really liked the idea presented earlier of Lancashire being Red and White and Yorkshire being White and Blue to form the red, white and blue of an England jumper.

The identity of this fixture can be more focused on the Red Rose v White Rose rather than Lanc's v Yorks' and there can be an underlying story around the two houses for those who need to know the history.

For those that just want to watch awesome RL with great skills and players smash each other with a national jersey on the line for all participants, well they get that as well.

  • Like 2

Posted
21 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

But then where would the Roses fit in once you've hopefully created that second international window? Presumably just dumped like most thing in rugby league seem to be.

Surely if it's being brought back, it should be with the view of building it up as our equivalent of Aussie Origin. There has to be a long term commitment to playing it and making it a success.

I'm not in favour of bringing back the Roses as a stop gap until we hopefully persuade Australia etc. of the need for a second international window. If that's the main aim, let's play France and Wales. They might be one sided, but we're at least demonstrating our desire for a second international window.

Expecting it to be our equivalent of Origin is a fools errand, and it should be used for what is best for the overall game. If it becomes a money spinner then it can be played every year, but it could be less regular than that, it could be at a different point in the season if a better option occurs, like a mid season top level international option. 

If it was 1975 or 1995 we could play Wales, but they barely exist in 2024, and I think you need to go back further to make France a match that tests England. 

  • Like 1
Posted
9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

I am not saying that we should expect the world to go bananas for a WotR event, but what I am saying is that a competitive, well executed RL event should get enough of a following locally before gradually gaining interest beyond. 

 

I appreciate your optimism but it really wouldn’t, your juxtaposition of English rugby league with the NFL just doesn’t work. 

  • Like 1
Posted
7 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think though your plan for a Greater Manchester rugby league team is infinitely more prosperous as NOBODY, repeat NOBODY, outside the city of Manchester self identifies as a Greater Mancunian.

In fact there’s outright hostility to the concept.

Whatever the weaknesses of ‘Lancashire’ it is still going to sell more tickets than ‘Greater Manchester’ or ‘Merseyside’ ever would which was the proposal that I was replying to of yours.

Absolutely. I'm no fan of the concept but if it were to happen it has to be Lancashire, anything else is just daft.

I personally think whether people care about Lancashire or not is only a small part of the issue. I just don't think enough people care about a match or concept like this full stop. I'm not even convinced that people on the Yorkshire side care that much more about this either.

The far bigger failing is that it will not be a higher tier of competition and will be devoid of many of the stars that light up SL.

Posted
17 minutes ago, Damien said:

Absolutely. I'm no fan of the concept but if it were to happen it has to be Lancashire, anything else is just daft.

I personally think whether people care about Lancashire or not is only a small part of the issue. I just don't think enough people care about a match or concept like this full stop. I'm not even convinced that people on the Yorkshire side care that much more about this either.

The far bigger failing is that it will not be a higher tier of competition and will be devoid of many of the stars that light up SL.

How about Yorkshire v ‘Merseyside, Greater Manchester and parts of Cumbria and Cheshire that all used to be in Lancashire’? 

Posted
1 hour ago, Damien said:

I'm not even convinced that people on the Yorkshire side care that much more about this either.

Yorkshire v Lancashire means something at cricket. It's a little smirk about 'auld enemy' for anything else.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted
8 hours ago, Hopie said:

Expecting it to be our equivalent of Origin is a fools errand, and it should be used for what is best for the overall game. If it becomes a money spinner then it can be played every year, but it could be less regular than that, it could be at a different point in the season if a better option occurs, like a mid season top level international option. 

If it was 1975 or 1995 we could play Wales, but they barely exist in 2024, and I think you need to go back further to make France a match that tests England. 

I understand and I do agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think my concern is that I don't want to see something else introduced (be it Roses, England vs Exiles again) that is done half-heartedly and without any real attempt at making it something long term.

From my perspective, there has been too much of that from rugby league over the years. Ashes series that don't happen for 20 years. Tri-Nations and then Four Nations that get quietly dropped. World Cups that haven't always been regular, and even recently we lost the established 4 year WC cycle as soon as the first difficult situation came along. Other sports managed to get things back on track - football didn't delay its Euros until 2025. The Olympics went ahead this year, even though it had last been held in 2021. I'm not sure about all other sports, but rugby league is the one I know of that felt the need to wait four years instead of three (which would have kept the original cycle).

Let's also not forget (because it's very important to remember this) that we're talking here about something that the sport wants fans to buy into - pay their money and come and watch, watch it on tv, maybe buy some merchandise etc.

I can only give you my own thoughts, but if the message from the sport is "well, we're playing the Roses this year because it suits us, but we might not play next year, or we might play at a different time or whatever" my reaction is fine, you get on with it, and I'll go and see if there's any cricket on the other channel. Because I don't want to invest my time in something that will be gone next year.

If Shaun Wane and the RFL want to arrange a behind closed doors Yorkshire v Lancashire match because they think it will help the England team, they can sort that out anytime they want. They don't need to trouble any of us with that. Just get on with it. But if you're asking fans to invest their time and money in something, please have a plan for what you're going to do with it long term.

  • Like 2
Posted

In the end, anything county wise has to be Yorkshire v Lancashire anything else won't work. In the last it used to really be "Yorkshire League v Lancashire League". 

There are ways and means to get this sort of thing back but it would take some reorganising. You could bring back the Yorkshire League or cup and Lancashire League or cup to replace loop fixtures. If you really wanted to (not saying you should, far from it) which would allow supporters to see which "county" they are aligned to etc. but it gets a touch complicated.. and probably not worth it.

And, for the avoidance of doubt, my comment about the shirts was a joke.... It would not, at all, help. 

Posted
9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

the marketable identity does not need to be overly Lancashire/Yorkshire centric. I really liked the idea presented earlier of Lancashire being Red and White and Yorkshire being White and Blue to form the red, white and blue of an England jumper.

The identity of this fixture can be more focused on the Red Rose v White Rose rather than Lanc's v Yorks' and there can be an underlying story around the two houses for those who need to know the history.

For those that just want to watch awesome RL with great skills and players smash each other with a national jersey on the line for all participants, well they get that as well.

I think this is right. I'm not a particular fan of War of the Roses (please let's not use the horrible County of Origin), but if we are going to do it, using the names Lancs and Yorks but with real pushes on a nickname brand which allows people to find their team without it having to be Lancashire or Yorkshire. 

But I think we probably are talking about really minor, if we want different results to what we've seen before, we need to go big. As in Hundred-type promotion big. We need a great venue, a broadcast partner who'll give it prominence, sponsors who will push it, big names coaches, large promotional launch activities, and the event needs to look good, have entertainment, be polished and all that other good stuff.

We have a choice here. We can either go down the tried and tested route and have a modest match each year with 7-12k in, or we can take a gamble, go big, invest money and aim for a series that can attract 20-30k per match. Maybe more long term.

There is a choice here, but one costs a lot more, but the rewards are substantially more too.

  • Like 3
Posted

Yorkshire and Lancashire have a history in Rugby older than Rugby League itself, I firmly believe that one of the big factors in the 1895 split was that Lancashire and Yorkshire were winning every Country Championship between them and the southerners were trying to push that talent out of the game.

Posted

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted

I feel that it is more imporort that the England squad play together as a team in preparation for upcoming internationals than it is for the Engand players to test each other out in a Roses game. Thus an England vs Everyone or Anyone Else, even if played behind closed doors is in my view preferable, even if uncompetitive.  The benefit comes fom developing patterns of play and structures that work and that bring out the effectiveness of players as a team.  They just don't play together enough, I feel.

Sure, there'd be no Farnworth, Young etc release by their clubs, but work needs doing on geting  Welsby, Lewis, Newman etc to know each other and to play together.

Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I feel that it is more imporort that the England squad play together as a team in preparation for upcoming internationals than it is for the Engand players to test each other out in a Roses game. Thus an England vs Everyone or Anyone Else, even if played behind closed doors is in my view preferable, even if uncompetitive.  The benefit comes fom developing patterns of play and structures that work and that bring out the effectiveness of players as a team.  They just don't play together enough, I feel.

Sure, there'd be no Farnworth, Young etc release by their clubs, but work needs doing on geting  Welsby, Lewis, Newman etc to know each other and to play together.

I reckon Kristian Woolf would allow Farnworth to travel over you know, with him being famed for his backing of the English national side. 

Edited by WN83
  • Haha 1
Posted
6 minutes ago, Click said:

Once?

We tried it once, but we only gave it 107 years to work, and in fairness the crowds did rise a bit from the 700 who watched it at Central Park Wigan in 1975, the 1222 at Castleford in 1981 or 1738 at Leigh in 1982. It even managed to almost break five figures when it was played at Headingley (9283) in 2002 and at Odsal (8258) in 2003 before the plug was pulled. 

Posted
35 minutes ago, WN83 said:

I reckon Kristian Woolf would allow Farnworth to travel over you know, with him being famed for his backing of the English national side. 

 Not a chance

Posted

The last game can be seen here:

You can see how seriously the Lancashire team took it, with that well known Lancastrian Brian Carney and Geordie Yorkshireman, Chris Thorman bringing the do-or-die state of origin level of intensity.

Posted
1 hour ago, MatthewWoody said:

@Hopie having a so rich and important history can be something to build on. 

We're not inventing them right now. 

It's not like that at all. We are to all intents and purposes inventing them and starting from scratch. To most that history is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to this concept coming back.

Posted
1 hour ago, Dave T said:

As in Hundred-type promotion big.

The RFL can't afford to lose that kind of money.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Posted
11 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

 Not a chance

Just a friendly jibe at Woolf. This was a man who did his best to stop some of his Saints players travelling 12 miles for mid season games, let alone 12,000. More chance of seeing Herbie the racing car in a Lancashire shirt. 

  • Haha 1

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