War of the Roses (Again)

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5 minutes ago, Hopie said:

I just watched England v Samoa, for me it would be like saying nobody cared about that because the English players are all British.

 

Are you comparing Pride in being English and Pride in being from Lancashire?

[JM2010]

Who do the Cumbrian players (Morgan Knowles) play for?

For players outside of Yorkshire and Lancashire should it be where they started their SL career or could any players from Cumbria, London and other areas be placed in a draft.

Alternatively Cumbria could play London/SE

[Barley Mow]

9 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Who do the Cumbrian players (Morgan Knowles) play for?

For players outside of Yorkshire and Lancashire should it be where they started their SL career or could any players from Cumbria, London and other areas be placed in a draft.

Alternatively Cumbria could play London/SE

Morgan Knowles was born in Barrow, so traditional Lancashire in exactly the same way as somewhere north of the Mersey in Greater Manchester, (ceremonial) Cheshire or Merseyside is.

I'd agree that anyone born outside of the two traditional counties it would be sensible for them to play for the county where their first pro-club (or a club important to them) is based. Or where they grew up if that was in Yorks/Lancs.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Barley Mow

[Gerrumonside ref]

When questioned about this is Shaun Wane’s own assertion wrong that WotR would be a better preparation game than playing England-France?

That seems to be the strongest argument for bringing it back that I’ve seen as he is surely better placed than anyone to judge?

We do need a plan for France, Wales and the rest of the international game though in Europe to run in tandem with this if it came back.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[JonM]

I suppose Yorkshire v the rest of the country is probably better than Yorkshire vs any place where you watched Granada, Border, Tyne Tees or Thames Television when you were a kid, although even the latter is probably pushing it for most of today's players. 

[Barley Mow]

6 minutes ago, JonM said:

I suppose Yorkshire v the rest of the country is probably better than Yorkshire vs any place where you watched Granada, Border, Tyne Tees or Thames Television when you were a kid, although even the latter is probably pushing it for most of today's players. 

There are a number of legitimate negatives to WoR, but I don't think this is one of them - There is only really Mike McMeeken who would be selected at the moment who was neither born or brought up in Yorkshire or Lancashire.

Even the likes of Ethan Havard and Mikołaj Olędzki who were born abroad have obvious links to one county or the other. The NRL players wouldn't be involved mid-season, but if the were, even Victor Radley's heritage is a father from Yorkshire rather than elsewhere in England.

McMeeken has played most of his rugby for Castleford and will be at Wakefield next season, so would slot in with Yorkshire. Any other non-Yorks/Lancs born/brought up player in the future is also likely to have similar club connections.

[Damien]

16 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

When questioned about this is Shaun Wane’s own assertion wrong that WotR would be a better preparation game than playing England-France?

That seems to be the strongest argument for bringing it back that I’ve seen as he is surely better placed than anyone to judge?

We do need a plan for France, Wales and the rest of the international game though in Europe to run in tandem with this if it came back.

It was pretty much what I'd have  expected Shaun Wane to say based on the type of stuff he comes out with.

He also said about it can be a success if we get a top line sponsor on board, either is wishful to say the least, and the same lazy comparisons with SOO.

[Archie Gordon]

Squishing all players to fit into Yorkshire or Lancashire is perhaps fine if you don't ever plan to expand the series beyond those two counties. But it seems backward looking, parochial and limiting to me.

I would instead hope that we might not be far off seeing Cumbria, South Wales and London/SE as rep teams in their own right. 

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Squishing all players to fit into Yorkshire or Lancashire is perhaps fine if you don't ever plan to expand the series beyond those two counties. But it seems backward looking, parochial and limiting to me.

I would instead hope that we might not be far off seeing Cumbria, South Wales and London/SE as rep teams in their own right. 

I think that's the least of the concerns really. We are decades away from any of those being competitive. Even that would require a major change in the way we go about things.

[Barley Mow]

12 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Squishing all players to fit into Yorkshire or Lancashire is perhaps fine if you don't ever plan to expand the series beyond those two counties. But it seems backward looking, parochial and limiting to me.

I would instead hope that we might not be far off seeing Cumbria, South Wales and London/SE as rep teams in their own right. 

Long term, subject to them being competitive that'd be great (although if it's Cumbria rather than Cumberland there's some kind of battle over who people from Furness play for!)

A primary objective here though (as expressed by Wane) is to give the players who will represent England the best competitive representative preparation for international matches. Short term that means Yorkshire v Lancashire rather than a GB wide regional competition.

From that point of view if we're including other 'regions' who aren't competitive, they might as well stick with what they are doing at present.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Barley Mow

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think that's the least of the concerns really. We are decades away from any of those being competitive. Even that would require a major change in the way we go about things.

We are not much farther away from Cumbria, South Wales and London being competitive in the UK as we are with PNG, Fiji and the Cook Islands in the Pacific.

[up the robins]

How about a multi team comp looking at building the international teams of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France along side Cumbria and north east, London and south east aswell as Yorkshire and Lancashire.

You could run two divisions with promotion and relegation, may not be the best suggestion but hopefully might help the international teams get some competitive action and who knows countries like the Netherlands and Spain may show interest in entering in the future.

[Just Browny]

All the references to the 'County Palatine', Ridings and 1974 border changes show exactly who this appeals to: members of the Dull Men's Club who have got a knitted balaclava in a drawer somewhere. 

Nothing wrong with that - I think I meet both criteria - but we massively overestimate how much the wider public care about the Yorkshire and (especially) Lancashire identities, which is why these things have always been poorly supported in the past.

If it is an England 'selection exercise', let Shaun Wane take the squad on a 10-day camp mid season and let him play a training match behind closed doors. But at the end of the year, his selections are going to be based on who are the best players in form at the end of the SL/NRL seasons, it won't be based on anything that happens in June.

[Archie Gordon]

3 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

...

A primary objective here though (as expressed by Wane) is to give the players who will represent England the best competitive representative preparation for international matches. Short term that means Yorkshire v Lancashire rather than a GB wide regional competition.

Well, if that's the objective, Yorkshire vs Lancashire is actually a worse option than Wane's England vs [somebody else]'s England. I imagine an England team made up of overlooked players would give Wane's England a good run.

Then again, I don't think what the England coach wants should be the prime consideration for the game's mid-season rep offering.

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, up the robins said:

How about a multi team comp looking at building the international teams of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France along side Cumbria and north east, London and south east aswell as Yorkshire and Lancashire.

You could run two divisions with promotion and relegation, may not be the best suggestion but hopefully might help the international teams get some competitive action and who knows countries like the Netherlands and Spain may show interest in entering in the future.

I think having international teams playing against areas of England devalues international RL (although for some of those countries you could argue there isn't a great deal to devalue at the moment).

My suggestion for mid-season would be that all of the European nations play two matches on consecutive weekends - Away against the team below them in the IRL rankings and then at home against the team above them.

This would leave England (being top ranked in Europe) without a home match. That first weekend I would have a Roses Match, before the squad come together to prepare for France away the following week.

[Chrispmartha]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

 

He also said about it can be a success if we get a top line sponsor on board, either is wishful to say the least, and the same lazy comparisons with SOO.

Rodstock and Ellgren?

Betfred and Oxen already rubbing their hands at the prospect 

[JM2010]

6 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

We are not much farther away from Cumbria, South Wales and London being competitive in the UK as we are with PNG, Fiji and the Cook Islands in the Pacific.

For now Yorkshire vs Lancashire can sit at the top then maybe have a Cumbria, London, South Wales playing each other below that. A bit like the Pacific Cup and bowl but without p and r.

[Archie Gordon]

1 minute ago, JM2010 said:

For now Yorkshire vs Lancashire can sit at the top then maybe have a Cumbria, London, South Wales playing each other below that. A bit like the Pacific Cup and bowl but without p and r.

TBH, I would run something pretty much like the Pacific Champs, inc. P&R. 

[JM2010]

5 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

TBH, I would run something pretty much like the Pacific Champs, inc. P&R. 

You could have p and r but I  think at the moment the promotion play off would be pretty one sided

[Damien]

17 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

We are not much farther away from Cumbria, South Wales and London being competitive in the UK as we are with PNG, Fiji and the Cook Islands in the Pacific.

You can't be serious. PNG and Fiji can field pretty much full time professional teams which is a damn sight closer than the regions you cite. I'm not sure citing the Cook Islands is much of an argument for anything either. Either way it's a pretty lame argument to go down the road you suggest.

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

You could have p and r but I  think at the moment the promotion play off would be pretty one sided

That wouldn't worry me particularly. I'm expecting NZ to take care of PNG on Sunday morning but I would rather they put that game on than not.

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

You can't be serious. PNG and Fiji can field pretty much full time professional teams which is a damn sight closer than the regions you cite. I'm not sure citing the Cook Islands is much of an argument for anything either. Either way it's a pretty lame argument to go down the road you suggest.

Each to their own. But you do like to be dramatic.

[Bongo1]

Would an international mid season be more beneficial than having Lancs v Yorks?

Full England international and England Knights playing a home nation on the same day, a full week England camp has got to be better prep than the WotR tripe

[Barley Mow]

16 minutes ago, Bongo1 said:

Would an international mid season be more beneficial than having Lancs v Yorks?

Full England international and England Knights playing a home nation on the same day, a full week England camp has got to be better prep than the WotR tripe

WoR has come up again this weekend because it seems Wane may prefer that as preparation for next year's Ashes to the mid-season international we have had with France the last two seasons. Based on the lacklustre attempt that was made of the France game this year, there's at least an argument that he's correct - but France are the most competitive nation available that time of year.

From a 'benefit to England' point of view, the only other thing I can see (with SH teams not playing mid-season) is a Combined Nations team - which was tried for the two seasons before France (2021 & 2022).

 

Edited November 4, 2024 by Barley Mow

[The British Lion]

I personally hate the idea of Lancs V Yorkshire as a match. Parochial, yesterdays news, and limiting in terms of vision.

 

at the very worst - and why they ditched it I don’t know, have The Exiles provide the mid season test in the short term.

 

in the meantime - develop the euro nations with a long term plan