How to restore the magic of the Challenge Cup

[Martyn Sadler]

https://www.totalrl.com/talking-rugby-league-ten-point-plan-to-restore-the-magic-of-the-challenge-cup/

[Tommygilf]

Its certainly one solution, there are elements to like too. 

I don't think anything changes the fact that one off knock out games (barring finals) don't sell as well with the RL audience as they used to. I also think Leeds or Wigan B team beating Workington or Hunslet in the opening rounds would get old pretty quickly.

[Damien]

The most notable change is the date. Obviously there is a strong potential for people just to choose the Grand Final and not bother with the Challenge Cup at all or vice versa and we could be far worse off overall. Also an October Challenge Cup date will come with worse weather and could well be less appealing for people who still see the Challenge Cup as a day trip/weekend away to London. I can't see that working.

Bigger clubs joining a round earlier is something I'd be up for but joining too early as in a couple of these proposals just has the potential for farcical mismatches and increases the workload for the bigger clubs. Limiting quota players too seems detrimental, fans want to see the top stars likes Field and French.

The rest, in particular all the announcements is all a little meh and will do nothing to get more people going to the final.

Edited April 26 by Damien

[The Blues Ox]

Open draw and as many teams in from the top 3 divisions is a must in my opinion. At the moment its basically a SL competition that 4 Championship teams get the opportunity to play in. The end result will be the same that you will get two SL teams in the final barring a miracle but surely the magic of the cup is an opportunity for amateur teams/lower league teams to draw SL teams. 

[burningmuscles]

How about raise the standard of playing within every club bar the top six or eight clubs?

It's ridiculous how fans just accept that 80% of all RL teams that exist will be permanently ######. 

Rugby League is a pretty unforgiving sport, and it only really excels when you have elite or comparable clubs going toe-to-toe. It's not as in Football (soccer), where you can employ negative or defensive strategies. But at the same time - the cures for the Challenge Cup are for the wrong disease. It's the sport itself that's broken, and lack of competitiveness within the entire structure.

You might as well implement a handicapping system, where if Hunslet played Wigan - you'd give Hunslet an automatic 52pt start. Much easier than actually attempting to raise the quality of Hunslet, and other teams in League 1/Championship.

[Click]

30 minutes ago, burningmuscles said:

How about raise the standard of playing within every club bar the top six or eight clubs?

It's ridiculous how fans just accept that 80% of all RL teams that exist will be permanently ######. 

Rugby League is a pretty unforgiving sport, and it only really excels when you have elite or comparable clubs going toe-to-toe. It's not as in Football (soccer), where you can employ negative or defensive strategies. But at the same time - the cures for the Challenge Cup are for the wrong disease. It's the sport itself that's broken, and lack of competitiveness within the entire structure.

You might as well implement a handicapping system, where if Hunslet played Wigan - you'd give Hunslet an automatic 52pt start. Much easier than actually attempting to raise the quality of Hunslet, and other teams in League 1/Championship.

So are you advocating for raising the standard of every club (bar 6/8 clubs)? Or are you saying that it is too hard to do so?

I am not sure how fans are just accepting that 80% of RL teams are ####, not sure what RL fans are supposed to even do about that.

[phiggins]

I think moving the CC final to a week before the Grand Final is a complete non-starter. If a club were to reach both, it would be too big an ask for both the club and the fans to play both finals in successive weekends. I also wouldn't be setting the schedule of the cup to accomodate Magic Weekend. In fact, I would scrap Magic Weekend altogether.

I wouldn't be against a group system in the early rounds. As @Tommygilf has already suggested, early rounds of cup competitions don't really capture the imagination. Early rounds of the FA Cup and League cup would probably support that. Maybe have 4 groups of 5, with SL clubs joined by 8 teams to progress from outside SL. Replace loop fixtures and have the games counted on memberships / season tickets. I imagine there would be challenges with the Championship and 1895 cup calendar to be worked through, but should be possible.

 

[sam4731]

Two points:

How can you play the final in the middle of the play offs? What about teams that are in both?

For me the Challenge Cup needs amateur teams, it's just too big a tradition to lose.

I do like the open draw element though so I'd keep the format but I'd have SL and Champ teams enter in Round 1 but be joined by 8 teams that have come through qualifying. League 1 teams would enter at final round of qualifying.

[graveyard johnny]

the magic hasnt just evaporated from the CC its steadily drained out of modern society as a whole as the internet and 7895 TV channels pin people to their couches and throw sport at them like fish to penguins  - its xmas everyday for those who want to be entertained nowadays

[RigbyLuger]

37 minutes ago, graveyard johnny said:

the magic hasnt just evaporated from the CC its steadily drained out of modern society as a whole as the internet and 7895 TV channels pin people to their couches and throw sport at them like fish to penguins  - its xmas everyday for those who want to be entertained nowadays

Very true. And a chance to wave at a Adrian Morley, for example, and a celebration of the RFL Roll of Honour, of which who really knows what it is outside those who care, aren't going to sell tickets.

[graveyard johnny]

concerning attachment to the game-do kids even have a childhood "hero" anymore?  by the time they have read a players fact file in the matchday programme they will have signed for another club anyway 

[sentoffagain2]

    Ban Super League teams then we might get an exciting Challenge Cup.Would have to move the Final  though.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

The most notable change is the date. Obviously there is a strong potential for people just to choose the Grand Final and not bother with the Challenge Cup at all or vice versa and we could be far worse off overall. Also an October Challenge Cup date will come with worse weather and could well be less appealing for people who still see the Challenge Cup as a day trip/weekend away to London. I can't see that working.

Bigger clubs joining a round earlier is something I'd be up for but joining too early as in a couple of these proposals just has the potential for farcical mismatches and increases the workload for the bigger clubs. Limiting quota players too seems detrimental, fans want to see the top stars likes Field and French.

The rest, in particular all the announcements is all a little meh and will do nothing to get more people going to the final.

Pretty much my sentiments. Having our 2 biggest events back to back in October will dilute both. When we require many neutral fans to fill these grounds, putting both showcase events on back-to-back is forcing fans to choose. 

SL clubs joining the cup at the round of 32 rather than round of 16 is an obvious improvement (how it was about 10 or so years ago). I'd be tempted to give the SL champions a bye so they have a free weekend for the WCC. But eliminating all the other clubs below L1 is doing more to damage the ethos of the cup than any of the ideas mentioned at the end of the piece. It's our FA Cup, not our League Cup. It needs to include as many as possible within the pyramid and unite the rugby league community. 

The quota idea puzzles me. Why restrict our selling points? Seems a bit gimmicky (in a negative way).

And as nice as the other ideas are to build an event, they're not really selling points that are going to add bums to seats.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, sentoffagain2 said:

    Ban Super League teams then we might get an exciting Challenge Cup.Would have to move the Final  though.

This post is for a thread about recreating the magic of the 1895 Cup.

[JT RL]

The Challenge Cup winner should play the Division 1 (super league) winner in the Grand Final. Best cup team v best league team.

Creates a meaning for the Challenge Cup.

Play the early rounds in January & Feb

Final rounds in Match - terrestrial tv will pick up these games

Final at Easter 

 

 

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

5 hours ago, phiggins said:

I also wouldn't be setting the schedule of the cup to accomodate Magic Weekend. In fact, I would scrap Magic Weekend altogether.

Merge them.

Magic Weekend every round. Give it an identity. Spread the game. You'd need a 30k combined crowd for each event to at least match what we have now. Some regularity of each round might even build it.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

4 minutes ago, JT RL said:

The Challenge Cup winner should play the Division 1 (super league) winner in the Grand Final. Best cup team v best league team.

Creates a meaning for the Challenge Cup.

Play the early rounds in January & Feb

Final rounds in Match - terrestrial tv will pick up these games

Final at Easter 

 

 

 

If you did that, one team (the cup winners) essentially has no reason to perform in the league for the rest of the season because they'll already be in the final.

[JT RL]

Would ambitious teams not aim for the double or even the treble .. a chance to place in history

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:

concerning attachment to the game-do kids even have a childhood "hero" anymore?  by the time they have read a players fact file in the matchday programme they will have signed for another club anyway 

Yeah, if anything the attachment to individuals is even greater than that to clubs amongst youngsters and beyond across all sports.

[burningmuscles]

8 hours ago, Click said:

So are you advocating for raising the standard of every club (bar 6/8 clubs)? Or are you saying that it is too hard to do so?

I am not sure how fans are just accepting that 80% of RL teams are ####, not sure what RL fans are supposed to even do about that.

Well, it seems to me from a casual observance of this forum, and other places - that tinkering with formats, fixtures, structures, and dates occupy thoughts more than raising the number of quality teams. As if any of these changes would magically revive the sport.

As the saying goes, the two best times to plant a tree - the first is forty years ago, the second is now. There are no other solutions. I'm just sick of the sport - in general - rearranging deckchairs.

Edited April 26 by burningmuscles

[Sports Prophet]

I haven’t put my finger on how it could be done fairly but I like the idea of the Challenge Cup incorporating inter county rivalry. I think the old Lanc’s and York’s identities still have meaning and there are certain tools which can be used to give the old rivalry a bit of oomph again.

Maybe at an amateur level, the early rounds are played between clubs within their own counties before being whittled down to say four or eight clubs who contest their own Magic style KO round over a weekend of Yorkshire v Lancashire match ups.

And continue/or introduce the Lanc’s and York’s rivalry through to the introduction of the professional clubs, making a big deal of any Lanc’s v York’s draw. Perhaps only Lanc’s v York’s ties are televised on BBC.

Audaciously, you could actually divide the competition purely on a Lanc’s to the west v York’s to the east and have the final contested by Yorkshire and Lancashire champions. If that means excluding some clubs like Catalans and London, or giving definition of why they fit in either east or west camp, then so be it.

I don’t think contesting the CC final a week before the SL final is the answer. I just don’t see why you would have two major events back to back. I think it would dilute and devalue each event too much.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, burningmuscles said:

Well, it seems to me from a casual observance of this forum, and other places - that tinkering with formats, fixtures, structures, and dates occupy thoughts more than raising the number of quality teams. As if any of these changes would magically revive the sport.

As the saying goes, the two best times to plant a tree - the first is forty years ago, the second is now. There are no other solutions. I'm just sick of the sport - in general - rearranging deckchairs.

Makes his first appearance in December 2018 and then boom, 15 posts later he comes out with this piece.

There’s a lot of truth to what you say.

[Dunbar]

I don't know why we stress about this over and over.

Martin O'Neill has said in a Telegraph article that the demise of the FA Cup is the worst thing that has happened to football in his lifetime.  But again, this is just evolution. 

20 or 30 years ago, the Cup (in RL or football) had a special place.  In essence, your club's games, which you attended live, were your only real view of the league (apart from a once a week highlights show) and so the Cup stood out as a chance to see wider teams live on tv and a tournament culmination in a big event that was relevant to the whole sport.

But as soon as we start to get wall to wall live games from the top division, this inevitably became the focus of media and fan attention.  The Premier League did this to the FA Cup and the Super League did it to the Challenge Cup... but doubly so because Super League culminated in the Grand Final that became the sports big annual event.

I say don't lament this, take it as a success that the premier competition keeps us enthralled all year and the Grand Final is a huge success (this was no guarantee when it was launched).

But the Cup final still delivers one of the highest domestic attendances of the year (sometimes the highest) and the largest TV audience of the year.

I say recognise it for what it is and enjoy it.

Edited April 27 by Dunbar

[bobbruce]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I don't know why we stress about this over and over.

Martin O'Neill has said in a Telegraph article that the demise of the FA Cup is the worst thing that has happened to football in his lifetime.  But again, this is just evolution. 

20 or 30 years ago, the Cup (in RL or football) had a special place.  In essence, your club's games, which you attended live, were your only real view of the league (apart from a once a week highlights show) and so the Cup stood out as a chance to see wider teams live on tv and a tournament culmination in a big event that was relevant to the whole sport.

But as soon as we start to get wall to wall live games from the top division, this inevitably became the focus of media and fan attention.  The Premier League did this to the FA Cup and the Super League did it to the Challenge Cup... but doubly so because Super League culminated in the Grand Final that became the sports big annual event.

I say don't lament this, take it as a success that the premier competition keeps us enthralled all year and the Grand Final is a huge success (this was no guarantee when it was launched).

But the Cup final still delivers one of the highest domestic attendances of the year (sometimes the highest) and the largest TV audience of the year.

I say recognise it for what it is and enjoy it.

Also we are in a bit of a golden age for the cup with all SL clubs bar the promoted team having been in the final in the last 7 years. I wonder if that’s every happened in a shorter period. 

[gingerjon]

7 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Also we are in a bit of a golden age for the cup ...

We're a professional sport. Our golden age should be worth a bit more than these truly awful figures:#

What is the prize money on offer?

Depending on how far you get in the cup, you receive a losing prize money fund for each round, according to documentation seen by Love Rugby League which is sent to clubs. That figure is as follows:

• 1st round losers: £0
• 2nd round losers: £500
• 3rd round losers: £750
• 4th round losers: £1,000
• 5th round losers: £1,250
• 6th round losers: £1,500
• QF losers: £8,000
• SF losers: £18,000
• Runners-up: £35,000
• Winners: £100,000