How to restore the magic of the Challenge Cup (Merged Threads)

[Tommygilf]

35 minutes ago, Black Country Wire said:

That sounds like the Cup games are LESS appealing suggesting that if you are going to have loop fixtures they will have more appeal as league games.

Cup games are less appealing currently, evidently???

[Sports Prophet]

I shared a thought some time ago around NRL memberships in addition to club memberships.

For those calling on CC tickets to be included in season tickets, what about a different perspective.

What if the RFL had a season ticket membership. For the sake of discussion, let’s just say this season ticket is £50. That ticket will then entitle the holder to:

- £5 GA tickets and heavily discounted reserved seating tickets for all Challenge Cup fixtures from the last 32.

- In partnership with all SL clubs, £5 GA tickets at all SL fixtures. First come first served.

- Discounted England merch.

- £10 limited GA tickets to SL semi finals.

- £10 limited GA tickets to representative fixtures.

I think this idea will:

- create a new revenue stream for the RFL.

- make the CC more enticing and accessible to more people more often.

- attract larger away crowds at SL fixtures.

- attract neutral RL fans to more CC and SL fixtures.

Edited May 2 by Sports Prophet

[RigbyLuger]

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Cup games are less appealing currently, evidently???

And the same goes for football as well.

[Black Country Wire]

41 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Cup games are less appealing currently, evidently???

Thought that was my point.

[gingerjon]

A direct comparison between a Cup match and a League match featuring the same opponents.

Now, how would a parade at the final increase the Cup attendance?

 

[Anita Bath]

Might as well scrap it as opposed to further tinkering around in ways that only further detract from the purpose and value of the cup.

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A direct comparison between a Cup match and a League match featuring the same opponents.

Now, how would a parade at the final increase the Cup attendance?

 

How much healthier would the cup look and feel if matches were included on season tickets??

[Fevrover]

53 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

How much healthier would the cup look and feel if matches were included on season tickets??

They would probably have to put the prices of the s/t up but it would already be paid for so surely they would attend ?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I keep saying it, just make it a Magic event each round. At least it's different and the overall attendance will be likely more than the combined attendance in 8/4/2 grounds. Save on costs and spread the game.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Fevrover said:

They would probably have to put the prices of the s/t up but it would already be paid for so surely they would attend ?

Correct, People attend fixtures they have already paid for on season tickets regardless of stature, "meaning" or opponent in far greater numbers than they attend paid for matches.

[redjonn]

On 02/05/2024 at 13:37, Tommygilf said:

Cup games are less appealing currently, evidently???

I would agree but using your often quoted example of the Leeds v Saints cup game...

A more worrying concern should be the relatively lack of interest in attending a RL game featuring two of the biggest clubs and after a particular good game of RL the week before between them.

Plus I wonder how many season tickets holders paid to watch the cup game as distinct from non season tickets holders not bothering.  I have no idea but just maybe the one's that attended were mainly season ticket holders thus negating the argument that season tickets holders would only turn up if they have already paid.

 

[Archie Gordon]

Maybe a new sponsor with an unexpected bit of coin to spend would add a bit of colour? Is now the wrong time to unveil the P&O Cup?

[Tommygilf]

44 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I would agree but using your often quoted example of the Leeds v Saints cup game...

A more worrying concern should be the relatively lack of interest in attending a RL game featuring two of the biggest clubs and after a particular good game of RL the week before between them.

Plus I wonder how many season tickets holders paid to watch the cup game as distinct from non season tickets holders not bothering.  I have no idea but just maybe the one's that attended were mainly season ticket holders thus negating the argument that season tickets holders would only turn up if they have already paid.

 

Look at Widnes vs Donny or literally any other comparison mate.

I agree the lack of interest is poor, but reflected in the fact that more people turn out to Season Ticketed games rather than one off match purchases. There's no reason Leeds vs London last Friday also got thousands more people to it than the cup tie too other than that imo.

I think there is a drop across the board. Its impossible to deny a drop of over half and say its negated

[Dunbar]

10 hours ago, gingerjon said:

A direct comparison between a Cup match and a League match featuring the same opponents.

Now, how would a parade ato the final increase the Cup attendance?

 

This is quite a deceptive view though. 

For a long time, the Challenge Cup was a bigger match attraction than league games.  Is that something the clubs would prefer today?

Take Widnes.  In 1983/94, they played two Challenge Cup games at home - against second division Dewsbury (in Round 1) where they got 4,005 and against HKR (Round 3) where they got 8,017.

That 8,017 was their biggest home attendance of the year and well above their average league attendance of the year which was 4,528 (15 games).

The focus of fans has moved from cup to league and now league games outdraw cup games - is that really a bad thing?

What I find amazing is that Widnes are getting 2,936 in the second division while in the 80's - an era people consider bumper for our sport they were averaging 4,528 in the top division.

As I have said previously on this thread, the shift in popularity from cup to league is a welcome one for our sport overall.

Edited May 6 by Dunbar

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The focus of fans has moved from cup to league and now league and now league games outdraw cup games - is that really a bad thing?

We've built up a consumer base on one model, over 30 years, and wonder why adopting a totally different approach for one off games delivers worse results with our customer base.

[Dunbar]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

We've built up a consumer base on one model, over 30 years, and wonder why adopting a totally different approach for one off games delivers worse results with our customer base.

Not just a consumer base, a particularly successful one.

Season ticket sales and the growth in attendances for league games is very useful for clubs. 

The season tickets provide excellent cash flow while the higher attendances are valuable for sponsorship and in stadia sales.

I would take that business model over a draw to see if I can get a couple of home cup games a year every day of the week.

[Damien]

There were that many things that were different 40 odd years ago and that makes comparisons difficult as it's far from comparing like for like.

Season tickets weren't really a thing like they are now. Just walking up and paying at the turnstile was very much the norm. As such there felt little distinction between going to a cup and league game, you were just going to another game and walking up and paying as you normally would. Fan behaviour was very much different as a result.

Cup competitions, in their various guises with 4 cups, were an established part of the season with clubs at times playing cup rounds in consecutive weeks and very often only ever playing 2 or 3 league games before another cup game. A successful team could play 15+ Cup matches a season.

We also had a 16 team league and for teams just middling along the cups provided a welcome opportunity to win silverware or boost the coffers. Teams playing approaching 50 games a season very much meant fans would pick and choose what they paid to attend. A cup run was often more exciting than another run of the mill league game. 16 teams meant more matches against smaller, unattractive teams too and should be considered when looking at averages.

The combination of these things saw a very different mentality with a little more balance. It was a very different era that just doesnt exist now. Maurice Lindsay himself said at the outset of SL that he wanted to devalue the cup to make SL the pinnacle and this is exactly what happened.

Edited May 6 by Damien

[Dunbar]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

There were that many things that were different 40 odd years ago and that makes comparisons difficult as it's far from comparing like for like.

Season tickets weren't really a thing like they are now. Just walking up and paying at the turnstile was very much the norm. As such there felt little distinction between going to a cup and league game, you were just going to another game and walking up and paying as you normally would. Fan behaviour was very much different as a result.

Cup competitions, in their various guises with 4 cups, were an established part of the season with clubs at times playing cup rounds in consecutive weeks and very often only ever playing 2 or 3 league games before another cup game. A successful team could play 15+ Cup matches a season.

We also had a 16 team league and for teams just middling along the cups provided a welcome opportunity to win silverware or boost the coffers. Teams playing approaching 50 games a season very much meant fans would pick and choose what they paid to attend. A cup run was often more exciting than another run of the mill league game. 16 teams meant more matches against smaller, unattractive teams too and should be considered when looking at averages.

The combination of these things saw a very different mentality with a little more balance. It was a very different era that just doesnt exist now. Maurice Lindsay himself said at the outset of SL that he wanted to devalue the cup to make SL the pinnacle and this is exactly what happened.

This post feels a little contradictory.  You start by saying 'there felt little distinction between going to a cup and league game' and then two paragraphs later you say that 'a cup run was often more exciting than another run of the mill league game.'

[Damien]

36 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

This post feels a little contradictory.  You start by saying 'there felt little distinction between going to a cup and league game' and then two paragraphs later you say that 'a cup run was often more exciting than another run of the mill league game.'

Only if you choose to ignore the 2 sentences before it and pretty much the entire paragraph. I thought it was clear I was talking about the act of paying as most people were walk ups without season tickets.

Edited May 6 by Damien

[Dunbar]

37 minutes ago, Damien said:

Only if you choose to ignore the 2 sentences before it and pretty much the entire paragraph. I thought it was clear I was talking about the act of paying as most people were walk ups without season tickets.

In that case, I agree with you.  Season tickets and the shift of focus to the league has been beneficial for the sport.

I just got thrown off by you saying the cup games were more exciting than run of the mill league games.

[ATLANTISMAN]

I understand that many on here have an emotional attachment to the CC (I used to) however in the modern world its well passed its sell by date.

Time to move on the parrot is dead its ceased to be its an EX PARROT:)

[Dunbar]

4 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I understand that many on here have an emotional attachment to the CC (I used to) however in the modern world its well passed its sell by date.

Time to move on the parrot is dead its ceased to be its an EX PARROT:)

I would call it the competition that delivers the most free to air coverage and the highest television audience of the year for our sport.  Binning it off would be a massive own goal.

The shift to the league for our sport is great for week to week coverage and attendances but we have to remember that this is behind a pay wall for the vast majority of games.  The cup is a great way to reach an audience with a recognised brand.

I am not a big fan of removing the game with the biggest audience we have... it would be like Apple discontinuing the iPhone. 

[Damien]

43 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

I understand that many on here have an emotional attachment to the CC (I used to) however in the modern world its well passed its sell by date.

Time to move on the parrot is dead its ceased to be its an EX PARROT:)

It's not though. It still gets some good attendances at various stages and still provides our 2nd highest crowd of the season. It also provides FTA coverage on the BBC. I can't think of any other comparable sport in this country that just has a league competition and nothing else.

[redjonn]

On 06/05/2024 at 11:36, Tommygilf said:

Look at Widnes vs Donny or literally any other comparison mate.

I agree the lack of interest is poor, but reflected in the fact that more people turn out to Season Ticketed games rather than one off match purchases. There's no reason Leeds vs London last Friday also got thousands more people to it than the cup tie too other than that imo.

I think there is a drop across the board. Its impossible to deny a drop of over half and say its negated

You may be right, although Leeds last game had lots of free tickets for dancers and their families...  13000 plus gate surprised me given the season tickets are less than 10000 and limited travelling fans from London.

Although a separate subject do the free tickets get classed as attendance in IMG world versus season ticket holders that don't turn up not being counted.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, redjonn said:

You may be right, although Leeds last game had lots of free tickets for dancers and their families...  13000 plus gate surprised me given the season tickets are less than 10000 and limited travelling fans from London.

Although a separate subject do the free tickets get classed as attendance in IMG world versus season ticket holders that don't turn up not being counted.

Even if they were 1000, even 2000 freebies, that would still mean over 4000 more than attended the cup game!

Not 100% sure re IMG. If I remember correctly it is measured on people in the stadium (so they would count). Obviously counter measure to this is that freebies cost money and investment, which is also something IMG monitor. I don't think there's a way to fudge it too much really.