Applications to League 1 Open

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Toby Chopra said:

I wish anyone trying to grow the game the best of luck, but the guy's quote says:

"There's so much rugby talent in the region; in East Anglia there is definitely enough talent in the region to support a team entering that... level of the professional game." (L1)

That's just patently untrue. There are not enough L1 standard rugby league players in East Anglia unless you dumb down the standard so much to make it meaningless.

We know how this will go and this sort of delusion doesn't help anyone.

I've no idea why the RFL are encouraging it.

Or maybe League 1 should be made up of teams like this so they can develop together and compete with teams of a similar standard.

[Archie Gordon]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Or maybe League 1 should be made up of teams like this so they can develop together and compete with teams of a similar standard.

That wouldn't be L1 as we know it though. Far better to grow the SCL IMO.

[Toby Chopra]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Or maybe League 1 should be made up of teams like this so they can develop together and compete with teams of a similar standard.

Well, yes, but then it's not L1 as we know it. 

Non-heartland rugby league development would be better served by supporting these teams to grow in the SCL than throwing them in ill-prepared to L1. We know how that will end.

[Toby Chopra]

4 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

That wouldn't be L1 as we know it though. Far better to grow the SCL IMO.

Lol, great minds etc 

[Archie Gordon]

12 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I wish anyone trying to grow the game the best of luck, but the guy's quote says:

"There's so much rugby talent in the region; in East Anglia there is definitely enough talent in the region to support a team entering that... level of the professional game." (L1)

That's just patently untrue. There are not enough L1 standard rugby league players in East Anglia unless you dumb down the standard so much to make it meaningless.

We know how this will go and this sort of delusion doesn't help anyone.

I've no idea why the RFL are encouraging it.

 

I agree.

I don't think I'd advise either Vipers or Tigers to go for this. It seems like the quickest way to kill off what has been carefully built up at community level would be to enter a team into L1. 

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well, yes, but then it's not L1 as we know it. 

Non-heartland rugby league development would be better served by supporting these teams to grow in the SCL than throwing them in ill-prepared to L1. We know how that will end.

SCL should just be 1 of various "League 2"/Step 4 level Leagues IMO.

[Damien]

28 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Well, yes, but then it's not L1 as we know it. 

Non-heartland rugby league development would be better served by supporting these teams to grow in the SCL than throwing them in ill-prepared to L1. We know how that will end.

Practically half the teams in League 1 are development teams as is. We don't have enough heartland teams for the League 1 you want.

Edited June 1, 2024 by Damien

[newbe]

League1 was meant to a development league when first started, but changed when they dropped championship teams down to even the leagues up.

[Toby Chopra]

34 minutes ago, Damien said:

Practically half the teams in League 1 are development teams as is. We don't have enough heartland teams for the League 1 you want.

I'm not wedded to having L1 at all. It's always seemed obvious to me that the tasks of sustaining the historic northern clubs, and developing rugby league elsewhere, require different solutions. 

L1 doesn't really seem to serve either group, because its an outcome not driven by examining the needs of the clubs, it's just catch all bucket to dump teams in.

The only teams that have ever developed in L1 are ones those that have bought their way out of it, so we could look at things differently.

Lots of ways that you could do it - my solution would be to put the northern clubs into the Championship and build up the SCL for more sustainable development - but I'm open to whatever works. Design a system that delivers the teams' goals, at the moment it's the wrong way round, we're fitting teams into a system that looks nice on a piece of paper.

 

[Damien]

12 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'm not wedded to having L1 at all. It's always seemed obvious to me that the tasks of sustaining the historic northern clubs, and developing rugby league elsewhere, require different solutions. 

L1 doesn't really seem to serve either group, because its an outcome not driven by examining the needs of the clubs, it's just catch all bucket to dump teams in.

The only teams that have ever developed in L1 are ones those that have bought their way out of it, so we could look at things differently.

Lots of ways that you could do it - my solution would be to put the northern clubs into the Championship and build up the SCL for more sustainable development - but I'm open to whatever works. Design a system that delivers the teams' goals, at the moment it's the wrong way round, we're fitting teams into a system that looks nice on a piece of paper.

I am all for established northern clubs stepping up to an enlarged Championship (and consequently SL) if they don't want to accept traveling in a development type League 1. That is exactly what I would do.

You need a better standard for clubs than the SCL. League 1 without the heartland clubs (or with those if they are happy to travel) is perfect for it. A semi professional carrot is important to attract players and there is a lot of competition from RU clubs that pay something even at low levels. We just need more clubs and it's certainly easier to bring 12 similar clubs along together than throwing them in with heartland clubs in a league that suits neither. The SCL is then a stepping stone to that.

Edited June 1, 2024 by Damien

[OriginalMrC]

2 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

I wish anyone trying to grow the game the best of luck, but the guy's quote says:

"There's so much rugby talent in the region; in East Anglia there is definitely enough talent in the region to support a team entering that... level of the professional game." (L1)

That's just patently untrue. There are not enough L1 standard rugby league players in East Anglia unless you dumb down the standard so much to make it meaningless.

We know how this will go and this sort of delusion doesn't help anyone.

I've no idea why the RFL are encouraging it.

 

Completely agree. When I see quotes like that it makes me realise that people just have no idea of what's required to be competitive in league 1.

[Toby Chopra]

45 minutes ago, Damien said:

I am all for established northern clubs stepping up to an enlarged Championship (and consequently SL) if they don't want to accept traveling in a development type League 1. That is exactly what I would do.

You need a better standard for clubs than the SCL. League 1 without the heartland clubs (or with those if they are happy to travel) is perfect for it. A semi professional carrot is important to attract players and there is a lot of competition from RU clubs that pay something even at low levels. We just need more clubs and it's certainly easier to bring 12 similar clubs along together than throwing them in with heartland clubs in a league that suits neither. The SCL is then a stepping stone to that.

Your semi-pro point is a good one, but I still reckon you could do that in a regional context. The tier 7 union players that are getting cash aren't desperate to start travelling nationwide when they can get bonuses in regional leagues, and I reckon the same applies to our players too.

Frankly unless you're a full time professional, I'm not sure any player in any sport wants to do more than 2-3 long distance trips a year if they don't have to.

[Hello]

4 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

I wish anyone trying to grow the game the best of luck, but the guy's quote says:

"There's so much rugby talent in the region; in East Anglia there is definitely enough talent in the region to support a team entering that... level of the professional game." (L1)

That's just patently untrue. There are not enough L1 standard rugby league players in East Anglia unless you dumb down the standard so much to make it meaningless.

We know how this will go and this sort of delusion doesn't help anyone.

I've no idea why the RFL are encouraging it.

 

I understand your concerns and it does seem an unlikely one. However, I wait with interest to see what develops.

[Archie Gordon]

I would still love to see the RFL's review into Champ/L1. I'm not certain a L1 makes sense any longer. Decent semi-pro clubs could play in a bigger Champ. Speculative semi-pro clubs just aren't needed.

Below the Champ - with a completely different set of aims, responsibilities, activity - should sit the community game. Community clubs shouldn't aspire to be semi-pro clubs - they should aspire to be the biggest community club they can be.

[del capo]

Really entertaining debate.

My views on some of the later points:

IMG have no interest below SL . They have not been commissioned to expand club numbers , simply the product for monetizing it. All clubs received a grading guidance just to resolve the pecking order. Moving from B's to A's is their sole brief.  C's are the grade for all other clubs at all other levels.The RFL remain responsible for everybody and everything else.

League 1 is not and never has been a Development league. It is semi professional and the clubs in there need at least 200k each year to sustain themselves. There are no existing outfits outside League 1   in our game that can continue to finance their current activities and find at the same time the finance and staffing to step up. The status / structure of that level of our competition  perhaps needs to change - to being simply 'Open'

Non heartland amateur leagues have for the last 30 years at least in various formats failed to deliver a level  of performance  that might have justified promotion of a club.  Most  became a disaster, with foundations on sand. New thinking was always to be encouraged but reality , as now , trumps everything.

We once ( 2003 ) had 100+ clubs outside the traditional  areas, from Aberdeen to the South Coast , who flourished but then faded largely because of lack of RFL priority investment. Certainly do not expect it now.

 Whether the NCL is a Benchmark   or a blockage - a historical nuisance - is  moot- but what is certain is that unless an Applicant  can show it can  better  Tier  4 standards ( and I am not taking SCL levels here ) and be genuine Tier 3 then entertaining such a club will have an inevitable result.

The 2 clubs mentioned here quite frankly do not have anything like the squad ,facilities , finances or back room staff . They would be brand new entrants to , at this level ,a pretty ruthless attritional sport. Not at all sure that would be either good for them or the Game in general......

.

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I would still love to see the RFL's review into Champ/L1. I'm not certain a L1 makes sense any longer. Decent semi-pro clubs could play in a bigger Champ. Speculative semi-pro clubs just aren't needed.

Below the Champ - with a completely different set of aims, responsibilities, activity - should sit the community game. Community clubs shouldn't aspire to be semi-pro clubs - they should aspire to be the biggest community club they can be.

If Super League displayed the same attitude you'd be in uproar.

[Archie Gordon]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

If Super League displayed the same attitude you'd be in uproar.

I'm not following.

[OriginalMrC]

16 minutes ago, del capo said:

Really entertaining debate.

My views on some of the later points:

IMG have no interest below SL . They have not been commissioned to expand club numbers , simply the product for monetizing it. All clubs received a grading guidance just to resolve the pecking order. Moving from B's to A's is their sole brief.  C's are the grade for all other clubs at all other levels.The RFL remain responsible for everybody and everything else.

League 1 is not and never has been a Development league. It is semi professional and the clubs in there need at least 200k each year to sustain themselves. There are no existing outfits outside League 1   in our game that can continue to finance their current activities and find at the same time the finance and staffing to step up. The status / structure of that level of our competition  perhaps needs to change - to being simply 'Open'

Non heartland amateur leagues have for the last 30 years at least in various formats failed to deliver a level  of performance  that might have justified promotion of a club.  Most  became a disaster, with foundations on sand. New thinking was always to be encouraged but reality , as now , trumps everything.

We once ( 2003 ) had 100+ clubs outside the traditional  areas, from Aberdeen to the South Coast , who flourished but then faded largely because of lack of RFL priority investment. Certainly do not expect it now.

 Whether the NCL is a Benchmark   or a blockage - a historical nuisance - is  moot- but what is certain is that unless an Applicant  can show it can  better  Tier  4 standards ( and I am not taking SCL levels here ) and be genuine Tier 3 then entertaining such a club will have an inevitable result.

The 2 clubs mentioned here quite frankly do not have anything like the squad ,facilities , finances or back room staff . They would be brand new entrants to , at this level ,a pretty ruthless attritional sport. Not at all sure that would be either good for them or the Game in general......

.

Completely spot on. I don't blame these clubs for wanting to give it a go but the RFL need to be honest with them. The RFL continues to invite new clubs and drops them into the league with zero support. 

[Leyther_Matt]

5 hours ago, newbe said:

League1 was meant to a development league when first started, but changed when they dropped championship teams down to even the leagues up.

I wouldn’t say that was the case when you look at when the NFP split in to NL1 and NL2. The development league at that stage was NL3, which made absolute sense and still would within that structure. 

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, del capo said:

We once ( 2003 ) had 100+ clubs outside the traditional  areas, from Aberdeen to the South Coast , who flourished but then faded largely because of lack of RFL priority investment.

All it needed was another five years of investment (in my view) and you would have seen enough clubs put down roots to justify the expenditure. There has been no greater act of self sabotage in the game's history. Our current, contracted, diminishing, state is entirely down to losing the money and then throwing what little we had elsewhere at dead ends instead.

And, back to this, I can't see anything from any of the clubs putting their names forward - kudos for doing so nevertheless - to say it'll be anything other than disastrous for them.

[del capo]

26 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I wouldn’t say that was the case when you look at when the NFP split in to NL1 and NL2. The development league at that stage was NL3, which made absolute sense and still would within that structure. 

They never got it right , and still won't.

'How do you solve a problem like Maria ?' ' Maria ' is and remains the NCL but the RFL would not at the time allow any of them to move up.

  Yes that NL3 was a development  concept but was also  supposed to be the bottom rung of the ladder until they realised that to implement it would have to involve in some way the NCL  clubsi standing on  that the ladder ..

Promotion / Relegation throughout the game just on results of on field performance then abandoned by the RFL., horrified at the prospect of existing members  being challenged locally.

Not a  development club in the country could  then overcome the Heartlands standards at community level ( that includes NWML and YML ) and to be brutally honest still can't.

So yes I still say that whilst NCL standards are a blockage to new clubs , allowing new entrants unless they can show   better should be resisted.

Sugar daddies not hiding behind company accounts however always welcome ! Perez no longer by the way  a person of significant interest in Cornwall I see, with a deficit of 300k on last lodged accounts.  League 1 so clearly attractive.......

 

[yipyee]

On 30/05/2024 at 10:08, Anita Bath said:

Has anyone considered the game might not be able to support 36 professional teams? 

The game or the same small pot..

Presuming the idea is to expand to create a larger pool/ pot so its all supported.

If the game was looking to add in the same old fails or teams on each others doorsteps then I would agree but this looks different.

[yipyee]

5 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I would still love to see the RFL's review into Champ/L1. I'm not certain a L1 makes sense any longer. Decent semi-pro clubs could play in a bigger Champ. Speculative semi-pro clubs just aren't needed.

Below the Champ - with a completely different set of aims, responsibilities, activity - should sit the community game. Community clubs shouldn't aspire to be semi-pro clubs - they should aspire to be the biggest community club they can be.

Whats wrong with being semi pro AND a community club, why either or..

[Archie Gordon]

6 hours ago, yipyee said:

Whats wrong with being semi pro AND a community club, why either or..

The two types of club have completely different functions with limited or no overlap in personnel, skillsets, finances, facilities, or expertise required. You can't grow a community club into a professional outfit - you'd have to start almost everything from scratch.

And nor, I think, should you want to. One of the biggest threats to community clubs is overreach. Unless you are bringing in a whole new set of people and £££, the people currently running the community side will find themselves overwhelmed - and if you are bringing in a completely new set of people, let them set up a new entity that is separate from the community club.

[Gomersall]

7 hours ago, yipyee said:

Presuming the idea is to expand to create a larger pool/ pot so its all supported.

I don’t see how adding one team to League 1 is going to grow the pot?