Sat 29th Jun: France Vs England. Stade Ernest-Wallon 17:00 BST (SL+)

[Hopie]

Didn't switching from GB to England secure Sport England funding? We need all the money we can get.

I've posted that France are not a genuine competitive opponent for England, I don't think the other home nations even approach the level France are at. There are no development areas or pathways approaching that, and it has been proven that the heritage players only turn up for world cup tournaments (or when they fall out with their own national coaches). I fully support the European cups and regular fixtures for the other European nations (and it appears the shoddy running of the world cup qualifying has messed that up this season) but England can't learn or grow by playing European teams.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

GB&I had/has the potential to be one of those potential playing opportunities, so could have formed a piece of the jigsaw. But please don't take one element of a much larger post out of context and misrepresent it.

You quoted me and I quoted you in your entirety so I misrepresented nothing. As I said nothing you posted has nothing to do with GB existing or not.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Hopie said:

Didn't switching from GB to England secure Sport England funding? We need all the money we can get.

I've posted that France are not a genuine competitive opponent for England, I don't think the other home nations even approach the level France are at. There are no development areas or pathways approaching that, and it has been proven that the heritage players only turn up for world cup tournaments (or when they fall out with their own national coaches). I fully support the European cups and regular fixtures for the other European nations (and it appears the shoddy running of the world cup qualifying has messed that up this season) but England can't learn or grow by playing European teams.

The last time England played Ireland they won 42-0 with Ireland having their Aussies too. England also beat Scotland easily the only time they've played them too. To think that England playing England C or D, which frankly are what Ireland and Scotland are, is going to be better than France to any meaningful degree is just fantasy.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

You make some fair points there. Correct, no investment from the NRL into Tonga or Samoa has really improved their performances. Migration to Aus east coast and the profile of the NRL itself on the east coast has been the main reason.

Put into context though, heritage filled Irish and Scottish teams have historically performed ok and should the platform for those two nations to play in have been both regular enough and of enough prestige, then there is no reason why those two nations couldn’t have for the time being enticed more heritage players to play competitive fixtures against England more often in the same way Samoa and Tonga do in the Pacific.

They have done though. I watched Scotland plenty of times with lads born in the North of England. And I'm supportive of heritage players as a tool, no issues there. But there are two big things that make a huge difference. 

Firstly, the Pacific players are of a higher quality. Ireland and Scotland don't get access to NRL players too much because of funding really. 

Secondly, there is no fanbase. We've seen the freak situation where Tonga in some cities in NZ are a bigger draw than NZ themselves are. 

We could probably do a better job of tapping into some of these populations, but the heritage teams of Scotland and Ireland are completely different to Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc. 

Edited June 30, 2024 by Dave T

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

18 minutes ago, Damien said:

You quoted me and I quoted you in your entirety so I misrepresented nothing. As I said nothing you posted has nothing to do with GB existing or not.

Ok whatever

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

They have done though. I watched Scotland plenty of times with lads born in the North of England. And I'm supportive of heritage players as a tool, no issues there. But there are two big things that make a huge difference. 

Firstly, the Pacific players are of a higher quality. Ireland and Scotland don't get access to NRL players too much because of funding really. 

Secondly, there is no fanbase. We've seen the freak situation where Tonga in some cities in NZ are a bigger draw than NZ themselves are. 

We could probably do a better job of tapping into some of these populations, but the heritage teams of Scotland and Ireland are completely different to Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc. 

Heritage teams have done nothing to develop the sport in Ireland or Scotland. Both are in the same place or worse than years ago, nigh on 30 years in Ireland's case. No matter how much some people on here try and equate these to the PI nations they are nothing alike as rightly you say.

Similarly when people say Irish people support Ireland at Football it completely ignores how big Football actually is in Ireland, the level of interest and support Football has and that these players compliment Irish lads. It's not a sham team and they could easily raise a team without heritage players.

The simple fact is Irish and Scottish people have zero affinity to teams like this in a sport that no one plays. People on here try and pretend that is not the case for just because reasons but Irish person after Irish person has said it on these forums. The facts speak for themselves if nothing else. It's akin to expecting me, or anyone on here, to become mad about an England AFL team made up of Aussies in an AFL World Cup.

I'm not even against heritage teams but it's not a one size fits all and it's clear that the PI nations and their strength is unique and cannot be replicated (it's also ignored that RL is far stronger in those places than either Ireland or Scotland too). In most places, and certainly in the case of Ireland and Scotland, it needs to be followed through with domestic development, players and teams. That is the only way that people from those places will have any interest or affinity.

Edited June 30, 2024 by Damien

[moorside roughyed]

Just read an article about this fixture on Union site "rugbypass". Just in case anyone's wants to read it. 

[Dave T]

44 minutes ago, Damien said:

Heritage teams have done nothing to develop the sport in Ireland or Scotland. Both are in the same place or worse than years ago, nigh on 30 years in Ireland's case. No matter how much some people on here try and equate these to the PI nations they are nothing alike as rightly you say.

Similarly when people say Irish people support Ireland at Football it completely ignores how big Football actually is in Ireland, the level of interest and support Football has and that these players compliment Irish lads. It's not a sham team and they could easily raise a team without heritage players.

The simple fact is Irish and Scottish people have zero affinity to teams like this in a sport that no one plays. People on here try and pretend that is not the case for just because reasons but Irish person after Irish person has said it on these forums. The facts speak for themselves if nothing else. It's akin to expecting me, or anyone on here, to become mad about an AFL team made up of English people in a World Cup.

I'm not even against heritage teams but it's not a one size fits all and it's clear that the PI nations and their strength is unique and cannot be replicated (it's also ignored that RL is far stronger in those places than either Ireland or Scotland too). In most places, and certainly in the case of Ireland and Scotland, it needs to be followed through with domestic development, players and teams. That is the only way that people from those places will have any interest or affinity.

They can be a useful cherry on top, but it can't be everything. It's our everything. 

Agree totally. 

We had 100% heritage teams 30 years ago. You can't do it again now. It's a blunt reminder that you haven't done any development in between. 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, moorside roughyed said:

Just read an article about this fixture on Union site "rugbypass". Just in case anyone's wants to read it. 

I wasn't going to but I thought I'd take a look. The trouble is you cant even defend anything about the game. It is weird though just doing an article like that on Rugby League to have a dig.

[moorside roughyed]

18 minutes ago, Damien said:

I wasn't going to but I thought I'd take a look. The trouble is you cant even defend anything about the game. It is weird though just doing an article like that on Rugby League to have a dig.

They're not wrong are they? That's the problem.

[Zilla Budgie]

Does any one know of any highlights of the men's game. Been on OurLeague and there is of the women's one, but can't find anything else.

[dealwithit]

FFRXIII is amateur run compared to successful sporting bodies. If England wants a competitive and profitable mid year event, it’s not enough to just turn up. 
1) share marketing resources 

2) promote the game in community in the lead up

3) provide coaching and player development support. The depth of coaching is shallow in France.

 

Regarding the scoreline, two things stuck out for me. The french effort dropped away after 20 mins. Even if the team wasn’t as strong, the only excuse for poor effort is the coach and failure to motivate/inspire. 
Similarly, the coach left the starting front row on until the 26 minute. He should have rotated after England scored their second try. They were gassed. He persisted and England scored a third. Bonkers. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, dealwithit said:

FFRXIII is amateur run compared to successful sporting bodies. If England wants a competitive and profitable mid year event, it’s not enough to just turn up. 
1) share marketing resources 

2) promote the game in community in the lead up

3) provide coaching and player development support. The depth of coaching is shallow in France.

 

Regarding the scoreline, two things stuck out for me. The french effort dropped away after 20 mins. Even if the team wasn’t as strong, the only excuse for poor effort is the coach and failure to motivate/inspire. 
Similarly, the coach left the starting front row on until the 26 minute. He should have rotated after England scored their second try. They were gassed. He persisted and England scored a third. Bonkers. 

The FFRXIII may be amateur run compared to successful sporting bodies but how is it compared to the RFL?

[Worzel]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

A very good post @Worzel, except for the xenophobic part which was nonsense in itself. I don’t think there is any deluded self-congratulations going on for years and years of activity, but the NRL must be congratulated for seeing the opportunity for what it is and running with it.

You are right on the number of migrants to Aus and UK, but as I commented to Dave above, Scotland and Ireland were actually doing ok with heritage players (I suspect neither had the best of their heritage players on the pitch at the last WC) and would have proven suitable opposition for England over the last 10-15 years had that been sustained and in turn kept the profile of the international game in the NH much higher than the capitulation it has turned into.

Every man and his dog saw right through the plastic Scots, Irish and some extent Welsh sides. They were a negative, not a positive. For whatever reason, but probably a combination of ethnicity and greater physical difference, people don’t see the pacific nations (similarly made up of 1st and 2nd generation expatriates) in the same light, and so those “nations” have more credibility. It is what it is.

By the way, the xenophobia is real. I’ve lost count of the number of Aussies I’ve spoken to who think the NRL has pulled off a strategic master stroke “building” pacific rugby league, and look down on northern hemisphere rugby league. 

[Damien]

Mmmm:

[Damien]

And the big event :

 

[dealwithit]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

The FFRXIII may be amateur run compared to successful sporting bodies but how is it compared to the RFL?

How many FTE does the RFL and RLC have? They may not be the best in the world, but England has resources France can only dream of.  

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, dealwithit said:

How many FTE does the RFL and RLC have? They may not be the best in the world, but England has resources France can only dream of.  

 I would say FFRXIII are amateurs running it like amateurs.  RFL are professionals running it at semi pro standard.

[Damien]

6 hours ago, dealwithit said:

How many FTE does the RFL and RLC have? They may not be the best in the world, but England has resources France can only dream of.  

Whoosh

[crashmon]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

Mmmm:

Thats pretty good attendance for a Championship warm up fixture.   Why are people complaining. 

[sam4731]

11 hours ago, moorside roughyed said:

Just read an article about this fixture on Union site "rugbypass". Just in case anyone's wants to read it. 

Nothing much changes does it?

[Tommygilf]

13 hours ago, Damien said:

England also beat Scotland easily the only time they've played them too

England had the toughest game against NH opposition in the past 20 years against Scotland that day, who were leading till the 36th minute.

Our history with the Northern Hemisphere is littered with failed non attempts and missed opportunities, all in a vainglorious desire to play Australia (and maybe NZ if the Aussies were too busy to answer our calls). We're now left with nearly enough sod all to play, and haven't even built up playing anyone else NH or SH to compensate for the Aussies and Kiwis not being interested in touring here for over half a decade.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

England had the toughest game against NH opposition in the past 20 years against Scotland that day, who were leading till the 36th minute.

Our history with the Northern Hemisphere is littered with failed non attempts and missed opportunities, all in a vainglorious desire to play Australia (and maybe NZ if the Aussies were too busy to answer our calls). We're now left with nearly enough sod all to play, and haven't even built up playing anyone else NH or SH to compensate for the Aussies and Kiwis not being interested in touring here for over half a decade.

The key problem is now that we're at the "Well, I wouldn't start from here" stage.

There's nothing to work with - and no money or time to work with that nothing.

And, and I think this is the most important bit really, seemingly, no inclination from anyone in charge to actually make it work.

[DoubleD]

10 hours ago, Zilla Budgie said:

Does any one know of any highlights of the men's game. Been on OurLeague and there is of the women's one, but can't find anything else.

I would like to know this too. The full game is available on super league plus but is locked so you have to pay 

[Harry Stottle]

13 hours ago, Dave T said:

We had 100% heritage teams 30 years ago. You can't do it again now. It's a blunt reminder that you haven't done any development in between. 

And that development is literally here at home Dave, to qualify for an heritage team there has to be lads who play the game here in the 'heartlands', we just don't develop enough players these days.