Sat 29th Jun: France Vs England. Stade Ernest-Wallon 17:00 BST (SL+)

[Click]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And that development is literally here at home Dave, to qualify for an heritage team there has to be lads who play the game here in the 'heartlands', we just don't develop enough players these days.

So players outside the heartlands who have roots in Scotland/Wales etc can't play for heritage teams? 

[Dave T]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And that development is literally here at home Dave, to qualify for an heritage team there has to be lads who play the game here in the 'heartlands', we just don't develop enough players these days.

Development can happen anywhere we put focus and attention on. 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Click said:

So players outside the heartlands who have roots in Scotland/Wales etc can't play for heritage teams? 

Yes of course they can Click as shows with antipodean origin players, but where would you expect the majority of 'heritage' players to come from to represent Scotland/Wales/Ireland, if it is as it used to be they would hail from Cumbria/Lancashire/Yorkshire.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

England had the toughest game against NH opposition in the past 20 years against Scotland that day, who were leading till the 36th minute.

Our history with the Northern Hemisphere is littered with failed non attempts and missed opportunities, all in a vainglorious desire to play Australia (and maybe NZ if the Aussies were too busy to answer our calls). We're now left with nearly enough sod all to play, and haven't even built up playing anyone else NH or SH to compensate for the Aussies and Kiwis not being interested in touring here for over half a decade.

There is no reason not to play Aus and NZ. We absolutely should be. Union haven't abandoned playing the big teams in the name of development. I'm not sure why playing the very top level of internationals is met with this sniping. 

Again, I'll go in to bat for the RFL here with history. 

The RFL drove the lesser nations, firstly to be in World Cups at all. Then expanding those WCs to get more teams in. Then supportibg Euro Nations, plus 20 years ago we had the likes of Tonga nipping over to okay our A teams etc. We then expanded the Tri Nations to bring in Scotland, Wales, France, Samoa and PNG. 

The RFL, on a shoestring have absolutely been a key driver of smaller nations being integrated into the world game. 

As we've seen though whenever England play France, Wales, Tonga etc you can't just switch out the Aussies for Ireland and crack on. People just don't want that. It's a dumb idea and I'm stunned people even give it a second thought. 

We needed a governing body that would fund real development in these nations and we need credible tournaments that bring these into the mix. 

We were doing the second part, that's why we played Scotland in front of 19k (iirc) and a couple of million viewers on the BBC. Nobody bothered with the actual development though, meaning that Scotland RK was no more than a blue kit. 

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Development can happen anywhere we put focus and attention on. 

You are talking my language Dave, but we as a sport are simply not doing enough if it, for people of my age who have spent a good number of years in the sport, the comparisons from then to now in your stated *30 years ago in the community side of the sport is alarming, but it is not just RL suffering in playing numbers I believe most sports are effected even football.

*Those heritage representative players of 30 years ago would have been kids 40/45 years ago.

[Dave T]

8 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes of course they can Click as shows with antipodean origin players, but where would you expect the majority of 'heritage' players to come from to represent Scotland/Wales/Ireland, if it is as it used to be they would hail from Cumbria/Lancashire/Yorkshire.

Well I think the real challenge here is that 30 years after they featured in the emerging WC there should have been some grassroots development of note in those countries. 

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Well I think the real challenge here is that 30 years after they featured in the emerging WC there should have been some grassroots development of note in those countries. 

Yes I agree but that is a whole different ball game Dave, we are talking about the qualification of heritage players, what you are suggesting is developing the sport, even if you had a pro team in those countries there are so many barriers to break down, for example Toronto Wolfpack I may be wrong but didn't their presence just increase the numbers playing union?

[Tommygilf]

39 minutes ago, Dave T said:

There is no reason not to play Aus and NZ. We absolutely should be. Union haven't abandoned playing the big teams in the name of development. I'm not sure why playing the very top level of internationals is met with this sniping. 

Again, I'll go in to bat for the RFL here with history. 

The RFL drove the lesser nations, firstly to be in World Cups at all. Then expanding those WCs to get more teams in. Then supportibg Euro Nations, plus 20 years ago we had the likes of Tonga nipping over to okay our A teams etc. We then expanded the Tri Nations to bring in Scotland, Wales, France, Samoa and PNG. 

The RFL, on a shoestring have absolutely been a key driver of smaller nations being integrated into the world game. 

As we've seen though whenever England play France, Wales, Tonga etc you can't just switch out the Aussies for Ireland and crack on. People just don't want that. It's a dumb idea and I'm stunned people even give it a second thought. 

We needed a governing body that would fund real development in these nations and we need credible tournaments that bring these into the mix. 

We were doing the second part, that's why we played Scotland in front of 19k (iirc) and a couple of million viewers on the BBC. Nobody bothered with the actual development though, meaning that Scotland RK was no more than a blue kit. 

Absolutely, nobody would be suggesting that we replace Australia and NZ with other nations, but we have totally failed to build up any credible alternatives, nor have we anticipated the obvious change in attitude from down under.

I agree the development point has always been a farce. It's hard work and I don't think we are up for it.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

England had the toughest game against NH opposition in the past 20 years against Scotland that day, who were leading till the 36th minute.

Our history with the Northern Hemisphere is littered with failed non attempts and missed opportunities, all in a vainglorious desire to play Australia (and maybe NZ if the Aussies were too busy to answer our calls). We're now left with nearly enough sod all to play, and haven't even built up playing anyone else NH or SH to compensate for the Aussies and Kiwis not being interested in touring here for over half a decade.

It was one of those we are playing a much lower ranked team kind of performances that we often see against France. Low intensity, low standard stuff because the England players know that's all they need to do.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The key problem is now that we're at the "Well, I wouldn't start from here" stage.

There's nothing to work with - and no money or time to work with that nothing.

And, and I think this is the most important bit really, seemingly, no inclination from anyone in charge to actually make it work.

This is the problem isn't it? July now and we are well on the way to another season done. Yet we've eve still not got a clue what is happening at the end of the season in the southern hemisphere. No idea what's happening next year. No idea with the World Cup. All of this could be announced and sorted now, nothing is going to radically change in the world of RL. We only have one body calling the shots for goodness sake. The trouble is they don't give a toss.

[Barley Mow]

2 hours ago, DoubleD said:

I would like to know this too. The full game is available on super league plus but is locked so you have to pay 

I had other commitments on Saturday, but thought I'd be able to watch the full match back later on SL+ for free. I have been able to do this for other free live games.

I was disappointed to discover that it was free live, but required the subscription to watch later.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Barley Mow

[Damien]

29 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I had other commitments on Saturday, but thought I'd be able to watch the full match back later on SL+ for free. I have been able to do this for other free live games.

I was disappointed to discover that it was free live, but required the subscription to watch later.

That's the opposite way way round of every subscription model I've seen. You normally pay a premium to watch live then its made available free later.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Damien

[17 stone giant]

Had to laugh when I scrolled down and saw the ages of some of the England players on England (rugby-league.com) . Quite a few 54 year olds in the squad, apparently.

Obviously just a bit of admin not yet fully updated, but so typical of rugby league.

[Dave T]

16 hours ago, Worzel said:

Every man and his dog saw right through the plastic Scots, Irish and some extent Welsh sides. They were a negative, not a positive. For whatever reason, but probably a combination of ethnicity and greater physical difference, people don’t see the pacific nations (similarly made up of 1st and 2nd generation expatriates) in the same light, and so those “nations” have more credibility. It is what it is.

By the way, the xenophobia is real. I’ve lost count of the number of Aussies I’ve spoken to who think the NRL has pulled off a strategic master stroke “building” pacific rugby league, and look down on northern hemisphere rugby league. 

I'll challenge this somewhat Worzel, I don't agree with your conclusions here, although I have some sympathy with the ultimate point you're making. 

I think Ireland and Scotland have been received pretty well, and tbh that surprised me a lot, I would have expected the response to them to be much more like you describe. People were broadly supportive of these heritage nations, of course there will always be people who are vocal against these things, but the media, broadcasters etc. were actually pretty positive in how they presented these teams. There was an acceptance that RL was a tiny developing sport in these countries and that this was a means to an end. 

And that is where the problem comes in. It's become clear that this isn't a means to an end at all - this in effect is the end game. It has become no more than a vanity project (I say this as a Scotland fan). The arguments for heritage players are that it is the top of the pyramid, staging internationals at a decent level, playing in World Cups etc that can then be used as a flag for development, offering incentive to young players, but also raising awareness of the fact that Scotland even play RL. The problem is, that they don't. And they are no closer to being a nation that plays RL now. 

There is probably no better representation of how RL does things than this. Creating shell teams just so we can stage a larger World Cup, but not have any real development objectives beneath it. 

But despite all the above being clear for quite a while now, some people are still championing these nations, and the likes of the BBC would absolutely still show games against them and some fans would turn up. 

Where it is disappointing is that there have been some green shoots here that suggest that there could be interest. I've watched Scotland play in Glasgow and Edinburgh in front of hundreds of fans, and in Galashiels in front of c1500 fans on a miserable Friday night in Oct/Nov. And the locals warmly embraced and enjoyed it. But then what? There is nowt. No more games, no club games of note, nothing really going on in schools, colleges, universities. There may be a training camp at Robin Park, Wigan or something.

We could get away with the above for a few years, but keep embarking on these vanity projects is harmful.

[Click]

Well they have finally uploaded a 3 minute highlights package almost 24 hours afterwards. 

Also, there is a certain YouTube page that people could watch the full game without paying. ... Shaun .. Something. I'm sure you can find it if you really want to watch it.

[graveyard johnny]

2 hours ago, Click said:

Well they have finally uploaded a 3 minute highlights package almost 24 hours afterwards. 

Also, there is a certain YouTube page that people could watch the full game without paying. ... Shaun .. Something. I'm sure you can find it if you really want to watch it.

am going to try to watch it as it was broadcast on Saturday to make it authentic - Am gonna dig out an old vintage pye  tv - cover the screen in grease - turn the sound off  and not tell any one else around that its on 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

And that is where the problem comes in. It's become clear that this isn't a means to an end at all - this in effect is the end game. It has become no more than a vanity project

This is a great point. It completely mirrors the thinking employed when admitting those expansion teams in to League 1 10 or so years ago - admit the teams to enable the RFL to stick some pins in a map and claim that the game was expanding, despite the clubs being built on sand and there being next-to-no infrastructure to support their development. The strategic thinking (or lack of) seems exactly the same.

When the RFL made the decision to split GB&I into the 4 home nations, I don't believe they had any plan or idea as to how those home nations would actually develop. If the rumours about Sport England funding are correct, then the decision was probably made with primarily that in mind, with the perceived bonus of then ending up with 4 international teams instead of just 1. But as you say, they've just ended up as hollow vanity projects (edit - Wales don't deserve to be lumped in with Scotland and Ireland).

Edited July 1, 2024 by RugbyLeagueGeek

[JM2010]

Would Wales vs France be a better option at the moment? They’re the only 2 outside of England with some decent infrastructure and maybe could build a rivalry and help each other improve 

[eal]

Heritage teams have been a failure simply because nothing happens between World Cups. Scotland and Ireland have essentially been built as a month-long project and then shut down again for another 4 (or more) years. And they have negatively impacted legitimate RL nations like France who have missed out on QF spots as they have had to overcome a team of Australians playing for Lebanon or a team of Englishmen and Australians playing for Ireland.

Edited July 2, 2024 by eal

[Damien]

10 hours ago, JM2010 said:

Would Wales vs France be a better option at the moment? They’re the only 2 outside of England with some decent infrastructure and maybe could build a rivalry and help each other improve 

Wales and France did play 6 times in the 2010s in some decent games. 4 wins for France and 2 for Wales is competitive enough too.

A couple of 5 figure crowds in France too, with crowds of 11,278 and 10,413. Even the worst was 4,055 and no worse than last week. Crowds in Wales poor but that's reflective of the venues and fact Wales hardly play.

These two nations should absolutely be playing more often.

[The Future is League]

Tom Johnstones thoughts on the England display

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/28863337/tom-johnstone-england-france-rugby-league-shaun-wane/

[Harry Stottle]

5 hours ago, eal said:

Heritage teams have been a failure simply because nothing happens between World Cups. Scotland and Ireland have essentially been built as a month-long project and then shut down again for another 4 (or more) years. And they have negatively impacted legitimate RL nations like France who have missed out on QF spots as they have had to overcome a team of Australians playing for Lebanon or a team of Englishmen and Australians playing for Ireland.

What do you reckon the score on Saturday would have been had England had a full strength team to put out?

[Harry Stottle]

53 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Tom Johnstones thoughts on the England display

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/28863337/tom-johnstone-england-france-rugby-league-shaun-wane/

Only watched the highlights that have been posted on this thread, I honestly do not see the point of these fixtures that do England any good whatsoever it is like a big Under 15's side playing a small U13's such is the gulf between the two, and observing from these highlights the ease that England scored those tries, they must have played pretty bloody awful inbetween the touchdowns not to have scored a panful.

[ATLANTISMAN]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Only watched the highlights that have been posted on this thread, I honestly do not see the point of these fixtures that do England any good whatsoever it is like a big Under 15's side playing a small U13's such is the gulf between the two, and observing from these highlights the ease that England scored those tries, they must have played pretty bloody awful inbetween the touchdowns not to have scored a panful.

Way forward for France is to play Wales home and away every year problem is the cost Harry 30K approx a match the WRL need funding.

[Harry Stottle]

24 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Way forward for France is to play Wales home and away every year problem is the cost Harry 30K approx a match the WRL need funding.

 

3 hours ago, Damien said:

Wales and France did play 6 times in the 2010s in some decent games. 4 wins for France and 2 for Wales is competitive enough too.

A couple of 5 figure crowds in France too, with crowds of 11,278 and 10,413. Even the worst was 4,055 and no worse than last week. Crowds in Wales poor but that's reflective of the venues and fact Wales hardly play.

These two nations should absolutely be playing more often.

As Atlantisman says above Damien the cost to stage these games would most probably be off putting.

Realistically though from the time you quote when there was 6 fixtures what has happened in the two countries as far as fielding International teams, without really delving into it and seeing a list of those available for selection (leaving out Antipodeans who may make themselves available in WC's) I would say that Wales is probably much weaker now, and a full France team will be much stronger (that is if the players can get themselves up for it) than they were previously.

Where would you suggest these games be played that would generate any money to eat into the initial costs of staging the games, in Wales somewhere would probably be a none starter, and if the French public can't get themselves up for a game against England then a Welsh fixture may not be a very attractive proposition, OK change the venue to somewhere other than Toulouse where RL is popular, initially there may be some interest but if the scores are lopsided in Frances favour then that may have an adverse effect on future attendances.