Sat 2nd Nov: Men's International: England v Samoa KO 2.30pm (BBC One)

[Mojo]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Then we go down under, wouldn't it be good to be invited into the Pacific Tournament?

That would be awesome tbh I loved it when we had the 4 nations in the past when England came over. With Tonga at its peak too it should be 5 nations and put France in the bowl comp with Fiji, CI and PNG. That would be the perfect scenario 

[Harry Stottle]

13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I just don't see it.

If we could ever get to the profile and rivalry of Origin then maybe but that is a separate argument. 

What will happen in reality is that clubs will pull players out claiming injury and player welfare and the gane will be less intense than a Super league round and Wane will learn nothing about his players.

There is already loads of noise about how many games our players play... the best preparation for a Kangaroo series next year is for them to actually play less and be better prepared physically. 

Wasn't that said when the SoO was first mooted, it will never take off?

Secondly seemingly you are not in favour of midseason games against France if we are to play less and be better physically prepared?

Surprised that @NRLandSL gave you a like for that suggestion.

[Mojo]

https://x.com/NRL/status/1852981268088004792?t=QF111hi-T8_1vO26isOG2A&s=19

Surely this is a gee up. Kangaroos vs Tonga ain't the main event?? 

[StandOffHalf]

14 minutes ago, Mojo said:

https://x.com/NRL/status/1852981268088004792?t=QF111hi-T8_1vO26isOG2A&s=19

Surely this is a gee up. Kangaroos vs Tonga ain't the main event?? 

Seems a stupid order, but maybe they were watching Featherstone vs Toulouse following on from France vs England...

[gingerjon]

10 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Seems a stupid order, but maybe they were watching Featherstone vs Toulouse following on from France vs England...

The two Australia games follow each other.

[JohnM]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/29/black-athletes-genetically-superior-myth-sports

[JohnM]

I think Junior may have been carrying an injury (rib? diaphagm?)  late in the game. He certainly took some punishing gang tackles.

Completely incidentally, 6ft 4in Andy Farrell made his International debut Vs NZ at the age of 18, I think.

[Exiled Wiganer]

5 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

4-5 ? Tuivasa-Shock, Mariner, Talagi, Luai, Tago, May, Nanai, Blore, Leilua, Chan Kum Tong, and maybe Skelton, Tevaga and Molo. Majority of this side will play next year and in the future.

I agree, but I have some sympathy for the “wait until we field our strongest team!” responses. We all rationalise things in our own way.

[Dunbar]

4 hours ago, MattSantos said:

I've had time to reflect and i still think they played just ok. A good foundation, but a lot to work on. A lot. 

The back three were decent, though maybe lacked a bit of punch starting our sets. Forwards were definetly in the collision and laterally ok in defense, though lacking that desperation at times. My grudge is the halves and whilst their were obvious examples of skill, I wasn't impressed with their control or how little they squared their hips and ran the ball. Everything a bit too out the back which is nice when it's quick, but just needs a better balance. 

Context. Samoa weren't great at all and you could tell they were missing at least 4 starters. We should have been dominant in every facet as Australia will be next week. I expect them to absolutely pump Tonga, especially if Tonga play like they did yesterday.

 

I really can't agree about the halves - I thought both Smith and Williams engaged the line and squared up the defense really well in the shift plays and their execution consistently created space on the edges.  You can see this in the tries but they were doing it well all game.

Add the game management of the long kicking game (Smith in particular) and the repeat sets won and I don't think there is a lot to complain about with the performance of the two. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

I am not sure if this is the right place to mention this, but in the last 7 SL teams v NRL teams, we are 7 nil. Which doesn’t surprise me, as we produce plenty of of world class players. We would lose very little if we had Wardle in 4 and Minchella in 13 against the Aussies. I wonder whether that is in part through our talent pool being in a smaller number of teams. I suspect if the NRL had 11 Aussie teams the overall standard would be stratospheric, but I am happy with how we are developing talent. Who knows, if we make the most of what we have got after the next re structuring, we could finally begin to fulfil our potential as a game. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I really can't agree about the halves - I thought both Smith and Williams engaged the line and squared up the defense really well in the shift plays and their execution consistently created space on the edges.  You can see this in the tries but they were doing it well all game.

Add the game management of the long kicking game (Smith in particular) and the repeat sets won and I don't think there is a lot to complain about with the performance of the two. 

Re watching the game, the halves were even more effective than I noticed first time around. I am not sure what level the previous poster is looking for, but Williams and Smith so far have been the most impressive combination of the big 5. That’s not to say that the Aussie combination doesn’t have a higher ceiling, but I am very happy with what we’ve got across the park. 

[Damien]

8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I really can't agree about the halves - I thought both Smith and Williams engaged the line and squared up the defense really well in the shift plays and their execution consistently created space on the edges.  You can see this in the tries but they were doing it well all game.

Add the game management of the long kicking game (Smith in particular) and the repeat sets won and I don't think there is a lot to complain about with the performance of the two. 

I feel like I've said this a lot recently but there is a lot to be said for balance in the halves and both players complementing each other. I feel like we have that and as a combination Smith and Williams offer everything you need from your halves. It's very rare we've had that for England or GB in my time watching.

[WN83]

12 minutes ago, Damien said:

I feel like I've said this a lot recently but there is a lot to be said for balance in the halves and both players complementing each other. I feel like we have that and as a combination Smith and Williams offer everything you need from your halves. It's very rare we've had that for England or GB in my time watching.

Yeah, it's extremely well balanced and covers pretty much everything you could want. There will be talk in the season again about Harry Smith being replaced by Lewis for the Ashes and I understand it because Smith isn't as eye catching and it takes the biggest games to really make you realise how important Harry Smith is to a side (that plus he does lose concentration in run of the mill league fixtures). We're going to need his pressure relievers more than ever against the Aussies. 

[northamptoncougar]

The kicking game and composure between Smith and Lewis seems to edge it in Smiths favour.

Lewis is a better runner and individual but to suit England the Smith / Williams combo seems nailed on (said by a very big Lewis fan.)

[EagleEyePie]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I feel like I've said this a lot recently but there is a lot to be said for balance in the halves and both players complementing each other. I feel like we have that and as a combination Smith and Williams offer everything you need from your halves. It's very rare we've had that for England or GB in my time watching.

I think Lee Briers has also perfectly balanced their strengths and weaknesses through the way he's getting them to play. They actually play like a genuine combination rather than the more common split halves. The way they interact and move across the pitch with Williams coming over from the right edge on plays to be 2nd receiver on the left edge allows us to get the ball to Williams where he's at his most dangerous.

If Welsby can find his best form next year then it should make us even stronger, because when you have a halfback travelling from one edge to other it can tip defences off as to what you're going to do, which is where an intelligent fullback can make themselves a playmaking option on the other side and catch the defence out. Niall Evalds has been excellent at this for Rovers this year.

[NRLandSL]

15 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I think Lee Briers has also perfectly balanced their strengths and weaknesses through the way he's getting them to play. They actually play like a genuine combination rather than the more common split halves. The way they interact and move across the pitch with Williams coming over from the right edge on plays to be 2nd receiver on the left edge allows us to get the ball to Williams where he's at his most dangerous.

If Welsby can find his best form next year then it should make us even stronger, because when you have a halfback travelling from one edge to other it can tip defences off as to what you're going to do, which is where an intelligent fullback can make themselves a playmaking option on the other side and catch the defence out. Niall Evalds has been excellent at this for Rovers this year.

Welsby is one of the best fullbacks in the world. Hasn’t had the greatest year, definitely struggled a bit since that injury. Will hopefully come back to his best next year though. He is the best player in SL when on form. 

[Worzel]

16 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I think Lee Briers has also perfectly balanced their strengths and weaknesses through the way he's getting them to play. They actually play like a genuine combination rather than the more common split halves. The way they interact and move across the pitch with Williams coming over from the right edge on plays to be 2nd receiver on the left edge allows us to get the ball to Williams where he's at his most dangerous.

If Welsby can find his best form next year then it should make us even stronger, because when you have a halfback travelling from one edge to other it can tip defences off as to what you're going to do, which is where an intelligent fullback can make themselves a playmaking option on the other side and catch the defence out. Niall Evalds has been excellent at this for Rovers this year.

Agree with all of this. Briers has got the two halves working really well as a unit, and there’s upside in Welsby if we can get him into the attacking game more. 

[StandOffHalf]

20 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The two Australia games follow each other.

It would have been miles better to go Women's Play-off, Men's Play-off, Women's Final, Men's Final - W, M, W, M.

It would have been ordered more sensibly and reached the correct climax with Oz vs Tonga.

Going W, W, M, M reduces visibility of the two Women's games, making the Women's Cup Final into a precursor for the Men's Play-off. Playing the Kiwis vs Kumuls after the Cup Final isn't great.

[GeordieSaint]

2 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

Welsby is one of the best fullbacks in the world. Hasn’t had the greatest year, definitely struggled a bit since that injury. Will hopefully come back to his best next year though. He is the best player in SL when on form. 

Welsby didn’t play badly in this Series. He was not on top form but was solid. He’s been a bit like that all year. I think it was @bobbruce who said Welsby’s confidence looks low. I’d agree, particularly after a long, tough, and disrupted season for Saints. But he remains the best full back we have. Top quality player. 

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

It would have been miles better to go Women's Play-off, Men's Play-off, Women's Final, Men's Final - W, M, W, M.

It would have been ordered more sensibly and reached the correct climax with Oz vs Tonga.

Going W, W, M, M reduces visibility of the two Women's games, making the Women's Cup Final into a precursor for the Men's Play-off. Playing the Kiwis vs Kumuls after the Cup Final isn't great.

Playing all four games as a blockbuster quadruple header diminishes them all. It was always going to.

But they obviously expect most interest to be on the Australia games so the set up is for those.

[StandOffHalf]

2 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

Welsby is one of the best fullbacks in the world. Hasn’t had the greatest year, definitely struggled a bit since that injury. Will hopefully come back to his best next year though. He is the best player in SL when on form. 

I largely agree with this.

I would have given him time off and had a look at Evalds in the #1 jumper against Samoa.

[StandOffHalf]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Playing all four games as a blockbuster quadruple header diminishes them all. It was always going to.

But they obviously expect most interest to be on the Australia games so the set up is for those.

Closing with the two Australia games would have achieved that though, wouldn't it? The two play-off clashes leading into the two Finals...

I think it's strange to have the play-off after the Cup Final.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

Closing with the two Australia games would have achieved that though, wouldn't it? The two play-off clashes leading into the two Finals...

I think it's strange to have the play-off after the Cup Final.

I haven't checked the timings but presumably the two Australia games are at what they consider the prime time and the rest are wrapping around that.

[StandOffHalf]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Playing all four games as a blockbuster quadruple header diminishes them all. It was always going to.

But they obviously expect most interest to be on the Australia games so the set up is for those.

Don't you think it is a show of disrespect towards the Aussie and Kiwi women that their Cup Final is second up, preceding the Men's Promotion/Relegation game?

Wouldn't it have highlighted and showcased Women's sport to go W, M, W, M, with the two play-offs and Cup Finals?

[gingerjon]

Just now, StandOffHalf said:

Don't you think it is a show of disrespect towards the Aussie and Kiwi women that their Cup Final is second up, preceding the Men's Promotion/Relegation game?

Wouldn't it have highlighted and showcased Women's sport to go W, M, W, M, with the two play-offs and Cup Finals?

Direct your anger at whoever organised the fixtures. I'm just saying why I think they're in that order.