Is international Rugby League catching up the other code?

[George Watt]

13 hours ago, Charlie said:

Simple answer in no, it’s the pinnacle of union. I don’t care much for union but their international is so far ahead, although the NRL is by far a better league then any of there’s. 
 

 

Played Union for about 6 years in England and trained with a Sydney club side to keep fit when I came to Sydney in the late 60's.

Watched RL from the age of 7 and played the game for about 6 months when I started College in Hull before switching to RU. Went to one match at Twickenham and the only matches I have been to in Aus were to watch the British Lions play Aus in Sydney when they toured here. Last one was a belter in 2013 when they won 41-16 to win the series 2-1 before a crowd just short of 84K.

For trivia buffs the highest attendance in Aus for a RU match was in Sydney 1999 when nearly 110K watched Aus play NZ.at the newly built Olympic Stadium.

I went to the 1999 RL GF final at the above stadium with an attendance of 107.5K.

[sam4731]

14 hours ago, Ackroman said:

Of your list which countries play professional RU to a standard except NZ? The Scots are south African, the Welsh in disarray. Italy?? I ask you. Really? The All Blacks are not the best rugby players in NZ. The Kiwis are.

If you're going by your formula, you can't include many countries outside Australia, NZ and England, given the stacks of heritage players that turn our for most.

Also your question was which countries were ahead of RL in terms of standards.

Definitely Wales, definitely Scotland and yes definitely Italy, as they are professional.

[Hello]

20 hours ago, Ackroman said:

Portugal v Uraguay. The best talent on the planet. If only the size of the crowd made their nations rugby players world class. Give me a break. 

Regardless of code, there are only 3 European nations with world class rugby players of note. 1 African nation, NZ and Aus. 

If you went second tier then maybe Wales, Tonga, Samoa, PnG, Argentina.....

Scotland? Mmm

With this post you further undermine any credibility that you have in this discussion. Argentina second tier lol - they beat the All Blacks this year, play in front of large home crowds, and have reached three world cup semi finals including the last one. Wales second tier and no world class players? They are currently on a downer but still play to over seventy thousand and have professional clubs with home grown players and a history of winning the six nations. I could go on but these two cases alone blow your argument out of the water. (PNG second tier - wrong code)

Edited November 12, 2024 by Hello

[overtheborder]

On 11/11/2024 at 09:38, Dave W said:

It's interesting to note that RU manages to play internationals yet still have club cup fixtures on the same day.

Clubs seem happy to have weakened teams and lower crowds because the game exists for the internationals because that's where the money flows from. In RL that doesn't happen because parochial self-interest reigns: The NRL and SL club chairmen call the shots and internationals during the season are too often seen as an inconvenience. 

To be fair I think the club cup you're referring to is seen generally as a second-rate competition that's good for giving fringe players a game. I don't think you'd get the main club competitions playing on an international weekend, so I don't think there's much difference in the attitude of SL/NRL clubs as there is in any other sport to be honest.

That said, I definitely agree that international RU looks to be the main priority for them and that everything else (except maybe the European tournaments) seems to feed into it.

[Keith989]

18 minutes ago, overtheborder said:

To be fair I think the club cup you're referring to is seen generally as a second-rate competition that's good for giving fringe players a game. I don't think you'd get the main club competitions playing on an international weekend, so I don't think there's much difference in the attitude of SL/NRL clubs as there is in any other sport to be honest.

That said, I definitely agree that international RU looks to be the main priority for them and that everything else (except maybe the European tournaments) seems to feed into it.

The Top 14 plays league games during internationals and the URC plays a little while internationals are on. I wouldn't necessarily see it as a good thing.

[EggFace]

On 11/11/2024 at 09:38, Dave W said:

It's interesting to note that RU manages to play internationals yet still have club cup fixtures on the same day.

Clubs seem happy to have weakened teams and lower crowds because the game exists for the internationals because that's where the money flows from. In RL that doesn't happen because parochial self-interest reigns: The NRL and SL club chairmen call the shots and internationals during the season are too often seen as an inconvenience. 

I never unstand that as in my area you have local club Percy Park, Newcastle Falcons and then England 6 Nations games sometimes all playin g at 3pm so players, coaches alike of are missing out watching their national team.

[Ackroman]

3 hours ago, Hello said:

With this post you further undermine any credibility that you have in this discussion. Argentina second tier lol - they beat the All Blacks this year, play in front of large home crowds, and have reached three world cup semi finals including the last one. Wales second tier and no world class players? They are currently on a downer but still play to over seventy thousand and have professional clubs with home grown players and a history of winning the six nations. I could go on but these two cases alone blow your argument out of the water. (PNG second tier - wrong code)

I don't care how many toff's drink champers with their hampers at an RU game. Name one world class Argentinian rugby player and do your own credibility some justice.

As far as RL is concerned, we have a problem in riches on the park. The RFU are looking squarely in our direction. However, there is the Burgess factor (I hope). Who, in their right mind, would cross code to become the scapegoat? No matter how much is tabled? I wouldn't, I bet he wish he hadn't and hopefully, very loudly telling others not to.

You see you can't  name 1 Argentinian, Italian, Canadian, Spanish, Georgian, Scottish, Japanese, Romanian, Namibian,  Welsh even, RU player or where ever they ruck, who could lace Dom Youngs boots? Or Herby Farnworths tash? Or straighten George Williams nose, polish Liam Marshalls head or even tickle Danny's fancy? 

 

 

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, Ackroman said:

I don't care how many toff's drink champers with their hampers at an RU game. Name one world class Argentinian rugby player and do your own credibility some justice.

As far as RL is concerned, we have a problem in riches on the park. The RFU are looking squarely in our direction. However, there is the Burgess factor (I hope). Who, in their right mind, would cross code to become the scapegoat? No matter how much is tabled? I wouldn't, I bet he wish he hadn't and hopefully, very loudly telling others not to.

You see you can't  name 1 Argentinian, Italian, Canadian, Spanish, Georgian, Scottish, Japanese, Romanian, Namibian,  Welsh even, RU player or where ever they ruck, who could lace Dom Youngs boots? Or Herby Farnworths tash? Or straighten George Williams nose, polish Liam Marshalls head or even tickle Danny's fancy? 

 

 

Ange Capuozzo's highlight reel might interest you - just to name one current player from the countries you pick. RU is indisputably miles ahead of RL in all those countries, and there are good to great players from all of them.

Most of the Argentina squad are world class. They've beaten the Boks and NZ and absolutely walloped Australia. Pablo Matera is one of the best back-rowers and leaders in the game, to name one.

Edited November 13, 2024 by StandOffHalf

[Ackroman]

9 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

Ange Capuozzo's highlight reel might interest you - just to name one current player from the countries you pick. RU is indisputably miles ahead of RL in all those countries, and there are good to great players from all of them.

Most of the Argentina squad are world class. They've beaten the Boks and NZ and absolutely walloped Australia. Pablo Matera is one of the best back-rowers and leaders in the game, to name one.

I might check that out but I've happily avoided the autumn friendlies. However I bow to your knowledge of the game, my list probably should have included Argentina but from my perspective, rugby league players are far far superior in skill and athleticism, as we see in countries where there is an opportunity to compare. Therefore my argument about world class players is not from the perspective of prejudice.

[JM2010]

RL just needs a bit more of an organised calendar for all tiers. There’s the Pacific Cup and Bowl now which looks like it could grow into a major competition. I’d also like to see one weekend of mid season tests such as ANZAC test and Samoa vs Tonga etc.

A European competition needs running every year also with several tiers and p and r. 
For now England could stick to playing test series at the end of the season and a mid season test against the winners of the Euros. Other European nations could also pay a mid season test and I’d include Jamaica and maybe Nigeria in that. The winner of the Euros could also earn the right to play a test against the touring team before they play England.

Also play a regular African nations and Americas cup at the end of the season with new nations being added to a tiered system to get more countries playing regularly in these continents. 
 

They should also consider expanding the World Series to include more nations to give them a chance to play in a WC style tournament if they keep the WC at 10 teams

[Exiled Wiganer]

If only we had a forum in which all things rugby and Vichy could be discussed…

[Hello]

14 hours ago, Ackroman said:

I don't care how many toff's drink champers with their hampers at an RU game. Name one world class Argentinian rugby player and do your own credibility some justice.

As far as RL is concerned, we have a problem in riches on the park. The RFU are looking squarely in our direction. However, there is the Burgess factor (I hope). Who, in their right mind, would cross code to become the scapegoat? No matter how much is tabled? I wouldn't, I bet he wish he hadn't and hopefully, very loudly telling others not to.

You see you can't  name 1 Argentinian, Italian, Canadian, Spanish, Georgian, Scottish, Japanese, Romanian, Namibian,  Welsh even, RU player or where ever they ruck, who could lace Dom Youngs boots? Or Herby Farnworths tash? Or straighten George Williams nose, polish Liam Marshalls head or even tickle Danny's fancy? 

 

 

Lol you say I can´t name playyers from these teams, but you haven´t even asked me to. You seem to have a lot of anger that is manifesting itself in nonsense posts.  In this article you will find several world cup players from the current Argentinian team alone (for the record I´ve watched them play a number of times and am familiar with many of the names);-

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/argentina-player-ratings-pablo-materas-all-time-great-shift-inspires-los-pumas-to-a-famous-victory-over-the-all-blacks

Edited November 13, 2024 by Hello

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 minute ago, Hello said:

Lol you say I can´t name playyers from these teams, but you haven´t even asked me to. You seem to have a lot of anger that is manifesting itself in nonsense posts.  In this article you will find several world cup players from the current Argentinian team alone;-

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/argentina-player-ratings-pablo-materas-all-time-great-shift-inspires-los-pumas-to-a-famous-victory-over-the-all-blacks

Wtf is that doing on here? 

[Hello]

3 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Wtf is that doing on here? 

Good question.  I am not interested in banging on about Union (which I watch sometimes) on this board.   The problem is that this particular article invites a response, and compares the internation game of RL and RU.  People who have read my posts know that I am pro expansion domestically and internationally, and it is a source of disappointment to me that RL fails to spread itself effectively (with a couple of exceptions).  To claim that the international game is catching up with RU, though, invites ridicule, and I am just one of a few who are trying to point that out.  On these boards we should be focussing on what RL can do to further itself.  

Edited November 13, 2024 by Hello

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, Hello said:

Good question.  I am not interested in banging on about Union (which I watch sometimes) on this board.   The problem is that this particular article invites a response, and compares the internation game of RL and RU.  People who have read my posts know that I am pro expansion domestically and internationally, and it is a source of disappointment to me that RL fails to spread itself effectively (with a couple of exceptions).  To claim that the international game is catching up with RU, though, invites ridicule, and I am just one of a few who are trying to point that out.  On these boards we should be focussing on what RL can do to further itself.  

I see. Thanks for taking the time to clarify that. I have absolutely no interest in what the fatties do with their time, save I suppose where they turn athletes like RTS into has beens. Happily there is a place on here where people can discuss that sort of thing all day every day. 

As to helping ourselves, we are already the biggest sport in the South Pacific, and getting bigger by the year. The holy grail for our game is growth in France and Wales. Some day one day we will put some real resources into that. We are far bigger than the tiny short cult, and far smaller than association football, and will always remain so. 

[Martyn Sadler]

Thanks for all the responses.

The original question was not "have we caught up with the other code internationally", but are we catching up?

The point is that you can begin light years behind but still be gradually catching up.

If any of us ten years ago had looked forward to 2024 to see the state of the international game today, I think we would have been quite amazed at the progress that has been made in the southern hemisphere.

For example, I was talking recently to a New Zealander who has little interest in either code, but he said as a neutral observer that Rugby League is on the verge of overtaking union in that country in terms of its popularity as s spectator sport.

We now need to find a way to replicate that progress in the northern hemisphere.

First of all, we have to seriously want to do it.

[JM2010]

13 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Thanks for all the responses.

The original question was not "have we caught up with the other code internationally", but are we catching up?

The point is that you can begin light years behind but still be gradually catching up.

If any of us ten years ago had looked forward to 2024 to see the state of the international game today, I think we would have been quite amazed at the progress that has been made in the southern hemisphere.

For example, I was talking recently to a New Zealander who has little interest in either code, but he said as a neutral observer that Rugby League is on the verge of overtaking union in that country in terms of its popularity as s spectator sport.

We now need to find a way to replicate that progress in the northern hemisphere.

First of all, we have to seriously want to do it.

Do you think that is mainly down to the growth in popularity and revenue of the NRL?

We moan on here about the NRL being more important than international RL but I think for our sport having such a strong domestic competition like the NRL is the reason why the Pacific Cup can be so successful. 
RL in Oceania has got more money and a higher profile than it has ever had which it can now use to really push the growth of the sport in that region.

I think the only way the NH and can get a stronger game in Europe is for the SL to grow and become higher profile. 
If the SL can start to generate some good income then some of this can be invested into other areas of the game and a higher profile can help promote the game in Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France as well as the many different communities in the North of England and elsewhere 

[Londonbornirishbred]

On 11/11/2024 at 22:20, gingerjon said:

I think the answer is no and also that we should stop comparing to RU at every turn and get on with being the best that RL can be.

This. With bells on.

Last weekend, the 4 home nations saw 280,000 fans attend 4 games. Whilst the NRL have finally seen that Internationals are a great "filler" as well as expansion tool, until SL and France can catch up, it will remain the same in the north.

And nobody should underestimate the impact the Tongan fans have on this boom in International RL. They are the common denominator when it comes to fans at games. It is similar down here when they play 15s too.

 

[İzmir Rugby League]

I think it evidently is in the Australasian / South Pacific area. TV ratings are higher for League and there is increasing hype. 

With the rise of Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and even PNG, and the likely continued domination of NZ in Union against Australia, the only way is up for League. 

It is already the case that International League outrates International Union in Australia. 

The difficulty is that the Northern Hemisphere is an entirely different question. 

England can compete with the five top southern teams but that is it. France can't. 

The only realistic option is some form of Global six nations style tournament where there is a southern and northern second tier. If played every year it could help the NH. 

Top Tier

1. England 

2. Samoa

3. Tonga

4. NZ 

5. Australia 

6. Qualifier

 

2nd Tier South

Fiji 

PNG 

Cook Islands 

Lebanon ? (weird additiona I know but we all know they are mainly Sydney based)

 

2nd Tier North

Wales

France

Scotland

Ireland

 

The winner of the Southern 2nd Teir should play the winner of the Northern 2nd Teir. 

Winner proceeds into the 1st Tier. 

 

Anyway, one can dream. 


 

[overtheborder]

On 12/11/2024 at 20:03, Keith989 said:

The Top 14 plays league games during internationals and the URC plays a little while internationals are on. I wouldn't necessarily see it as a good thing.

Fair enough, I'm not massively well acquainted with RU - I watch England games but not much else ironically! Definitely agree, I don't see it as a good thing either. Ideally you don't want the club game diluting the quality of internationals in any sport and vice versa IMO.

Talking in RL terms, given that the international game isn't huge, it doesn't feel like that big a step to establish worldwide international windows - to be fair to the relevant authorities things seem to be heading in the right direction for that recently, albeit sometimes pretty slowly.

[Hopie]

Read this article about Scottish RU earlier today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cew2j8xnenwo

It is about huge losses but the detail that "ticket sales totalled £16.4m, down from £23.7m" the previous year shows how much money we could have as a game with a real international structure. Scotland has a smaller population than Yorkshire and the game is boring, so if England had a guaranteed 4 home games a year against top tier opposition that we could sell to the whole of England, as well as a trips elsewhere each year, we could have millions of pounds to spend on juniour development and grassroots rugby, its a long shot but I think its the only sustainable plan for growth.

[sam4731]

6 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Thanks for all the responses.

The original question was not "have we caught up with the other code internationally", but are we catching up?

The point is that you can begin light years behind but still be gradually catching up.

If any of us ten years ago had looked forward to 2024 to see the state of the international game today, I think we would have been quite amazed at the progress that has been made in the southern hemisphere.

For example, I was talking recently to a New Zealander who has little interest in either code, but he said as a neutral observer that Rugby League is on the verge of overtaking union in that country in terms of its popularity as s spectator sport.

We now need to find a way to replicate that progress in the northern hemisphere.

First of all, we have to seriously want to do it.

I think the improvements that have been made in the SH have actually been at a detriment to the NH. The NRL has rightly or wrongly decided to look after their own interests when it comes to international rugby league.

If the two hemispheres were legs, 10 years ago we had 2 fairly healthy legs. Now we've got a bionic leg and one that's withering away.

[17 stone giant]

To help us better understand the situation, I thought it would be useful to present things using IMG style gradings. Having done a few quick calculations, I arrived at the following:

2014

• International rugby union: 16.91 - A
• International rugby league: 5.75 - C 

2024

• International rugby union: 17.02 - A
• International rugby league: 8.07 - B

 

We can clearly see that while rugby union has only made a modest improvement, rugby league has improved significantly. The gap has undoubtedly closed, but remains considerable.

[gingerjon]

15 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

First of all, we have to seriously want to do it.

[JohnM]

How to grow international rugby league in 3 easy steps.

1. Have a plan.

2. Stick to it.

3. Win the Euromillions lottery three years in a row.