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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Well hasn't this forum turned into a doom and gloom fest!  It would appear after all that the cosy franchise system which the majority on here support due to having a club safely tucked inside it is to be no more.  Reading some of the comments on here though the franchise system was working and apparently the RFL are changing just to please a few disgruntled supporters like me, that's a kind of paranoia I have been accused of in the past.  Even when SL clubs themselves vote to end the ridiculous system some forum members still deny that it has been a complete failure.

 

It is amazing how the RFL so loyaly backed by many members on here are all of a sudden lunatics running an asylum.  How many times have I been called a doom merchant and accused of only caring about my own club.  Well just take a look at this forum it really is very sad how many hypercritical comments have been posted.  

 

I have really enjoyed Mr Sadler scurrying around peddling his propaganda garbage in his paper which only makes me even more happier that I decided to boycott his rag a long time ago. We also had had the Widnes chairman Mr O'Connor putting his weight behind franchising, no surprise really he milked the system for all it was putting a team out in the Championship that was not worthy of such a great club, just because he got the nod from the RFL that SL was his.  My favourite is probably Tony Smith's comments a few week back, here we have a good coach that was aided with the lack of P&R when he was learning his trade at Huddersfield.  His reasons though are priceless, apparently it will stop young British players players getting there chance in the first team because clubs will be under pressure to survive P&R, remind me how old there Warrington's Aussie full back is?  

 

I am personally really pleased with the recent developments and I feel like the RFL are finally going down the road of thinking about all member clubs again.  I really hope that the split into 3 leagues is voted through.  Either way I almost feel part of the game again and I am even starting to take an interest in the world cup.

 

Cheer up everyone, what goes around comes around  :tongue:

Licensing was working better than what was there before. The problem was they expanded Super League to 14 clubs too early and waved Salford and Crusaders into the competition largely on geographical grounds. Without genuine competition for licences the system was going to work as intended. When club's like Bradford and Wakefield broke the rules there was no one to replace them with.

It should be reiterated that British rugby league can only afford to finance one fully professional competition. There is absolutely no prospect of the Championship or Championship 1 becoming viable and sustaining as a professional spectator sport.

I sense a destructive glee in your posting. That is sad. Without the limited financial and playing resources being concentrated in one elite competition the British game will even further behind Australia. Promotion and relegation is not some sort of silver bullet will magically reinvigorate the sport again. Far from it. The costs of promotion and relegation far outweigh its benefits.

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This is where Duff Duffs argument falls flat. Inlike the NRL, we dont have 15 big cities or big city suburbs playing RL. The towns or clubs in SL are no bigger than some of their counterparts in the NLs. There is no chance of one medium sized towns fans migrating to anothers.

The NRL or its predecessor has never had 30 odd pro teams.

I do think that even the NRL might benefit from P&R to make the game even stronger around Oz (like football here). Anyway there are far less people in Oz than the UK so we can better cope with P&R

 

P&R would never work here in Australia.  After years of a club going up and down, from one division to another, fans lose patience.  They want to be in the top league and stay there.

Yet despite this, the NRL cannot expand into the rest of Australia or NZ, due to its closed shop.

The NRL is a bad example!

We need to find our own optimal growth mechanism. I would have preferred a 14 club SL (inc Toulouse) with 2 up 2 down (and the French exempt), and some rules on finance, budgeting for youth and marketing when promoted.

 

How is the NRL a closed shop?  They are looking at expansion after 2015.  They will be playing at Least 3 games in Perth from next year onwards.  Most likely they will have new teams in Perth and a second team in brisbane within the next 5 years.  Most likely this will be followed by a second NZ team and a team on the NSW central coast - which would be a reincarnation of the old North Sydney Bears. 

RL seems to have contracted in Sydney since the mergers and it certainly damaged the game, from which RU has definitley benefited and perhaps picked up fans. How do you know a P&R or conference system wouldnt be even better in Oz?

Can you name the 23 teams you mention? Brisbane never had a strong league like Sydney

 

Brisbane had a quite strong local League competition for many years, until the Broncos were formed and joined the NSWRL premiership in 1988.  In fact the 1986 Kangaroos had 5 players, including the captain, who played in the Brisbane competition, and another two - being Mal Meninga and Gary Belcher, who only left the year before.  

They shouldnt need to! We should find a solution that achieves heartland development and expansion - like football. I'm sick of hearing about the NRL. Btw how come RU could expand into Perth but the NRL failed (as it did in Adelaide and various other places)

Anybody with any knowledge of the game in Australia would know that Perth was under enormous financial stress due to the arrangements whereby they had to pay all the travel costs of visiting teams.  Even then they were attracting good crowds before they were sacrificed as part of the re-unification of the game after the Super League War. 

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 My favourite is probably Tony Smith's comments a few week back, here we have a good coach that was aided with the lack of P&R when he was learning his trade at Huddersfield.  His reasons though are priceless, apparently it will stop young British players players getting there chance in the first team because clubs will be under pressure to survive P&R, remind me how old there Warrington's Aussie full back is?  

 

You lost me at "a good coach that was aided with the lack of P&R when he was learning his trade at Huddersfield"

 

You're wrong.  Huddersfield were relegated in his first year as coach (although he almost scraped it, IIRC)

 

He knows the disruption that happens when a team gets relegated, how the best players leave instantly for no transfer fee, how the clubs systems have to be wound down overnight, how real people in real jobs have to be made redundant, how the fear of losing vast amounts of income at short notice means you can't spend on infrastructure, on youth development, on any of the back office stuff that a club actually runs on. 

 

He's been there, taken a massive paycut (so the rumours say) to stay on and then come back out of it.

 

I'd listen to him if I were you.  He knows more about this game, and more about the business of this game, than every poster on this site rolled up together.

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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What planet are you on?

 

I can't see how Catalans could survive the drop and bounce back.    They may continue in the French league, but I think it would be over for them as a top level club.  And with them, would go the game in France as any significant force in the future at international level.

 

I really cannot believe the stupidity that has been spewing out of the RFL in the past few months.

English, Irish, Brit, Yorkshire, European.  Citizen of the People's Republic of Yorkshire, the Republic of Ireland, the United Kingdom and the European Union.  Critical of all it.  Proud of all it.    

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Well hasn't this forum turned into a doom and gloom fest! It would appear after all that the cosy franchise system which the majority on here support due to having a club safely tucked inside it is to be no more. Reading some of the comments on here though the franchise system was working and apparently the RFL are changing just to please a few disgruntled supporters like me, that's a kind of paranoia I have been accused of in the past. Even when SL clubs themselves vote to end the ridiculous system some forum members still deny that it has been a complete failure.

It is amazing how the RFL so loyaly backed by many members on here are all of a sudden lunatics running an asylum. How many times have I been called a doom merchant and accused of only caring about my own club. Well just take a look at this forum it really is very sad how many hypercritical comments have been posted.

I have really enjoyed Mr Sadler scurrying around peddling his propaganda garbage in his paper which only makes me even more happier that I decided to boycott his rag a long time ago. We also had had the Widnes chairman Mr O'Connor putting his weight behind franchising, no surprise really he milked the system for all it was putting a team out in the Championship that was not worthy of such a great club, just because he got the nod from the RFL that SL was his. My favourite is probably Tony Smith's comments a few week back, here we have a good coach that was aided with the lack of P&R when he was learning his trade at Huddersfield. His reasons though are priceless, apparently it will stop young British players players getting there chance in the first team because clubs will be under pressure to survive P&R, remind me how old there Warrington's Aussie full back is?

I am personally really pleased with the recent developments and I feel like the RFL are finally going down the road of thinking about all member clubs again. I really hope that the split into 3 leagues is voted through. Either way I almost feel part of the game again and I am even starting to take an interest in the world cup.

Cheer up everyone, what goes around comes around :tongue:

There are many alienated supporters that feel like us - great post! Catalans and London have got the same opportunities as everyone else. It's finally a level playing field with winners and losers - that's real sport. Edited by sheddings69
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They also have strict criteria that clubs can be denied promotion under

I'm sure I read that promotions in the "new" leagues would be under the conditions of matching certain criteria

Which is neat since maybe only 1 or 2 Championship clubs will meet those criteria.

It's going to be like the old days of Super League with a club coming bottom then not knowing what league they'd be in next season...

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"I am personally really pleased with the recent developments and I feel like the RFL are finally going down the road of thinking about all member clubs again.  I really hope that the split into 3 leagues is voted through. "

 

I agree with this.......i like watching RL but i wouldn't call myself die hard....i like NFL and Football just as much.......i really hope the new 3 league split comes in because i think it will make the game more exciting across all the 3 divisions.

 

Looking in as a fan of different sports RL needs something to happen to liven things up.

 

I'm sure many RL nuts love the game as it is but it needs to start attracting more fans from other sports and not just appeal to it's own small captive audience.

england_identity2.jpg1921_button.jpg

 

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Whilst I'd love to see a return to P&R if it can be demonstrated to be good for the game and part of a long term strategy rather than a knee jerk reaction, it'd sadden me greatly if any proposed restructure was to the determent of London Broncos.

 

If Hughes can't make it work, I'd rather see an RFL controlled club carry on and if that means less for the northern teams in terms of TV revenue then so be it.

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Well hasn't this forum turned into a doom and gloom fest! It would appear after all that the cosy franchise system which the majority on here support due to having a club safely tucked inside it is to be no more. Reading some of the comments on here though the franchise system was working and apparently the RFL are changing just to please a few disgruntled supporters like me, that's a kind of paranoia I have been accused of in the past. Even when SL clubs themselves vote to end the ridiculous system some forum members still deny that it has been a complete failure.

It is amazing how the RFL so loyaly backed by many members on here are all of a sudden lunatics running an asylum. How many times have I been called a doom merchant and accused of only caring about my own club. Well just take a look at this forum it really is very sad how many hypercritical comments have been posted.

I have really enjoyed Mr Sadler scurrying around peddling his propaganda garbage in his paper which only makes me even more happier that I decided to boycott his rag a long time ago. We also had had the Widnes chairman Mr O'Connor putting his weight behind franchising, no surprise really he milked the system for all it was putting a team out in the Championship that was not worthy of such a great club, just because he got the nod from the RFL that SL was his. My favourite is probably Tony Smith's comments a few week back, here we have a good coach that was aided with the lack of P&R when he was learning his trade at Huddersfield. His reasons though are priceless, apparently it will stop young British players players getting there chance in the first team because clubs will be under pressure to survive P&R, remind me how old there Warrington's Aussie full back is?

I am personally really pleased with the recent developments and I feel like the RFL are finally going down the road of thinking about all member clubs again. I really hope that the split into 3 leagues is voted through. Either way I almost feel part of the game again and I am even starting to take an interest in the world cup.

Cheer up everyone, what goes around comes around :tongue:

There has been little actual criticism of the governing body: certainly not the decades if squealing and abuse they received from the backwoods men up until now

It's their job to do as they see fit

I would like to know how the issue that is bound to return of clubs being continuously promoted one year and relegated the next and the debilitating effect it had on the sport, the effect it would have on expansion... A very important issue for me and the return to a game played in a ghetto

The rfl have always thought if all member clubs and been supporting of them especially yours and for instance keighley cougars who wouldn't have a ground if it wasnt for the governing body

As a traditionalist I think this move goes against tradition and is a retrograde reactionary step, for reasons I and others have given

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

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French RU and English RU have P&R

It took legal action to get London welsh into the premiership because the premiership does not have it

Many clubs on the current and past incarnations of the championship otley for instance have stated that if they were offered it they would reject it

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

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 not just appeal to it's own small captive audience.

 

There's an irony in this being posted by someone who is giddy because the direction of the game is being decided by what's best for a small group of pre-existing part-time clubs.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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There's an irony in this being posted by someone who is giddy because the direction of the game is being decided by what's best for a small group of pre-existing part-time clubs.

Do you think that these clubs have any influence with the SL clubs and their decision to bring back P&R ?
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They also have strict criteria that clubs can be denied promotion under

I'm sure I read that promotions in the "new" leagues would be under the conditions of matching certain criteria

Which is neat since maybe only 1 or 2 Championship clubs will meet those criteria.

It's going to be like the old days of Super League with a club coming bottom then not knowing what league they'd be in next season...

I actually agree with this being the way promotion should be done, and this is as a fan of a club that has pogo`ed between leagues before. I know for a fact if my club were to gain promotion we would never be able to compete, we would never be able to manage it financially and it would probably do more harm than good. 

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Do you think that these clubs have any influence with the SL clubs and their decision to bring back P&R ?

 

One of the reasons I think this is all a fudge is that the RFL's current executive have decided to listen to who's doing the shouting.  That is, a handful of clubs in the Championship and their misery-fuelled supporters in the press.  Franchising is not visibly working and so there is no doubt typical RL pressure to 'do something' and the SL clubs have decided to leap in whatever direction suits the current mood.

 

What I think they're heading towards is the worst of all worlds: no slot in SL for a Championship club until 2017 at the very earliest (see my earlier post), expansion becoming contraction, no chance for development, no connection between all parts of the game.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Well, the nouveau flatcappers who want to continue to stifle our game with their silly licensing system have really got their knickers in a twist about this one.

 

What's the fuss?  This is just the SL clubs dropping 2 clubs from their ranks, something that needed to happen regardless of which system is used to decide the make up of the top division.

 

The big decision is yet to be made, you licensingistas need to wait a little longer before you become the new Sid and Doris.

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Well, the nouveau flatcappers who want to continue to stifle our game with their silly licensing system have really got their knickers in a twist about this one.

 

What's the fuss?  This is just the SL clubs dropping 2 clubs from their ranks, something that needed to happen regardless of which system is used to decide the make up of the top division.

 

The big decision is yet to be made, you licensingistas need to wait a little longer before you become the new Sid and Doris.

I'm not sure what a nouveau flat capper is or a licensingista for that matter

it's the consequeneces of what you describe that the discussion is about particulasrly regarding expansion of tghe game, which many people consider vital for its future.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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Then perhaps you are thinking RL is somehow in the same galaxy as those sports.? You love NFL? THE franchise sport? Yet RL needs to get rid of licensing? Football? The game where it takes a billion pounds to win the PL?

Don't tell me......that's real sport. :rolleyes:

IMO RL is more of a minority sport and as you say "not in the same Galaxy" as Football and NFL.

 

However i don't think it's very exciting so i think these changes will address that.

 

It's ridiculous to compare the franchising in NFL to how it's done in RL........Dallas Cowboys' catchment area alone is bigger than Britain.

 

Footballs the biggest sport in the world....the main reason for this is anyone can beat anyone on any given day......Wigan won the FA cup without Billions.......then they missed out on Millions by getting relegated........sport is up and downs........RL needs ups and downs cos it isn't as exciting without them.

 

There's too many people on here think like administrators instead of spectators..........let the RFL and clubs worry about finances.........just enjoy the games.........we have to let them run themselves and if they mess up so be it.........The way it is now with meeting criteria being more important than scoring points is no good.

england_identity2.jpg1921_button.jpg

 

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I'm not sure what a nouveau flat capper is or a licensingista for that matter

it's the consequeneces of what you describe that the discussion is about particulasrly regarding expansion of tghe game, which many people consider vital for its future.

 

We're never going to agree

 

You think licensing is the way forward, I think it's put us in intesive care.

 

I think the 3x8 is a bright new dawn for our game, nationwide.  You don't.

 

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.

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There's an irony in this being posted by someone who is giddy because the direction of the game is being decided by what's best for a small group of pre-existing part-time clubs.

It's silly to think and handful of championship fans have influenced this decision.......the fact is that ending franchising will probably make it harder for us to get promoted against the dropping SL teams....but it's more exciting and i'm looking forward to it.

england_identity2.jpg1921_button.jpg

 

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It took legal action to get London welsh into the premiership because the premiership does not have it

Many clubs on the current and past incarnations of the championship otley for instance have stated that if they were offered it they would reject it

 

It does have P and R - but it also has minumum standards for a club. The default position is that the team that wins the championship (or whatever it is called) will replace the team at the bottom of the premiership. Provided that the stadium of the lower club is up to scratch (I think that is it - there might be something esle).

 

This is the approach I like best - is it not similar for entrance into the football league?

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It does have P and R - but it also has minumum standards for a club. The default position is that the team that wins the championship (or whatever it is called) will replace the team at the bottom of the premiership. Provided that the stadium of the lower club is up to scratch (I think that is it - there might be something esle).

 

This is the approach I like best - is it not similar for entrance into the football league?

It's basically the system we had in place before licencing. And it was so successful that there was widespread agreement that it had to be changed. So, obviously, we're now going back to it.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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