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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Leigh, as a town, is important to Rugby League. Leigh Centurions, as a club, are not. The same could be said of any number of towns in the north of England.

All clubs are important to rugby league. Some may be more strategically important than others. But all clubs are important. Thank god not everyone has your attitude towards the game.
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All clubs are important to rugby league. Some may be more strategically important than others. But all clubs are important. Thank god not everyone has your attitude towards the game.

No, you're right. I shouldn't have said not important. But they are way, way down they pecking order And we should not be making strategic decisions on the future of the sport based around them and clubs like them.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Leigh Centurions are completely irrelevant to the future of Rugby League.

According to lobby they are potentially a big part of the future of rugby union.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I didn't compare it, I said they have it. You say sport needs ups and downs yet the NFL are exempt from it in your view.

The only clubs that will win the PL (not lower divisions or the now derided FA cup) is Man United. ..possibly Chelsea...maybe Man City and Arsenal. Wow, that's really exciting

 

Of course they are......they don't have leagues.......where can they get relegated to........you have the NFL......and below that college football....it's completely different to how we do things and not relevant to RL Franchising

 

If you don't like football fair enough but you're in a minority........and like it or not the general public compare other sports to it's model or P&R

england_identity2.jpg1921_button.jpg

 

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P&R really is a quaint notion that belongs in the history books. It would only ever work if every team in every division had the same finances, same resources, so that in effect there is a completely level playing field across all divisions. The only factor that would then determine a teams future is their talent. What pure fantasy!

From reading some posts on here, it seems some get their jollies more from seeing teams go from one division to another, rather than watching quality teams battle it out at the top of the table. I suppose it takes all sorts.

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Next week our company has a load of tickets to the Golf Open in Muirfield. I got offered a ticket to any day, including the Sunday - rather than picking this slot, I went for a Friday, as that is work time rather than eating into too much of my home and family time.

I'm interested in purchasing whatever it is your company sells/builds etc.

Can I come?

People called Romans they go the house

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P&R really is a quaint notion that belongs in the history books. It would only ever work if every team in every division had the same finances, same resources, so that in effect there is a completely level playing field across all divisions. The only factor that would then determine a teams future is their talent. What pure fantasy!

From reading some posts on here, it seems some get their jollies more from seeing teams go from one division to another, rather than watching quality teams battle it out at the top of the table. I suppose it takes all sorts.

It works between the Football Conference and League 3. Which would be similar to the bottom of SL and the Championship.
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It works between the Football Conference and League 3. Which would be similar to the bottom of SL and the Championship.

 

Not really.

 

The clubs on either side of the divide are all of similar size and budget.

 

And all full-time professionals already.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Only in the minority in SL. You're referring to a generation ago.

 

The rest of the leagues made that move (as you well know I suspect) to grab the headlines when football wasn't playing and they've stuck to that decision in the summer era because their fan base is used to it. I don't believe it has any strategic advantage over other sports or even a trip to B&Q.

They made the decision because of the decline in crowds, this was the early-mid sixties them wot days. In 1963 324 people turned up at Odsal to see the dying Bradford play Barrow.

During those days Featherstone Rovers were quite a progressive club...playing in Ireland, and even advocating summer Rugby-a far cry from the mid nineties. They were also advocates of Sunday Rugby. It was a valid response to the changeing habits of society, with Saturdays being devoted to other activities. It had nothing to do with grabbing headlines.

it was a progressive move, but one which didn't address all the issues and attendances fell again towards the early seventies. The next attempt was the creation of two(gerrymandered several times including a move to three divisions) divisions with promotion and relegation between the two, this was also discredited for reasons that have been discussed many times over.

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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Of course they are......they don't have leagues.......where can they get relegated to........you have the NFL......and below that college football....it's completely different to how we do things and not relevant to RL Franchising

 

If you don't like football fair enough but you're in a minority........and like it or not the general public compare other sports to it's model or P&R

A fairer comparison would be of rugby league in England to rugby union in Wales.  Early 2000s they decided they couldn't afford their P&R setup and went to a fully franchised model of merged clubs.  They later had the good fortune of being able to eventually shrink their professional league to the current 4 while pitching in with the Irish (4 clubs) and Scots (2 clubs) who did the same to create a single fully-pro sustainable league.

 

That has also allowed two Italian clubs to come into the fold without upsetting anyone greatly with the benefits to Italy of this increased level of competitive domestic level sport.

 

Finally, the teams that didn't make it to the franchised table in Wales, Scotland and Ireland were essentially told to lump it and they have with quite good grace after a few years to settle into the model once the likes of Leighton Samuel moved on.  Professional sport in those countries has improved substantially in the last decade while allowing the host nations to concentrate resources on the wider game, recognising that it really can take a decade or more for the full fruit of a strategic reorganisation to mature.  It was quite a brave move, especially in Scotland and Wales but it has paid off handsomely in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately, rugby league just doesn't have the neighbouring leagues to shrink into a fully competitive league.  I'd quite happily sign up to a model of 12 clubs in a fully franchised, not licensed, pro league now, abandoning P&R permanently.  I'd also have it written into the franchise constitution that there is an option to increase to 14 clubs if a 2nd French team meets proven criteria and a further expansion side with the same criteria.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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It works between the Football Conference and League 3. Which would be similar to the bottom of SL and the Championship.

Exactly...the bottom of superleague. I take it you'll be happy seeing the same few teams go from one division to the other ad nauseum?

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Exactly...the bottom of superleague. I take it you'll be happy seeing the same few teams go from one division to the other ad nauseum?

I am happy that winning on the field can lead to a move to a higher and eventually the highest league. Where the value of having a good scrum half is just as important as having a good CEO.
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so what will happen if Crystal Palace turn out to have the top goalscorer next year? Will he stay with them? Will he balls. Why? Because Man City, Utd etc all have much better CEOs.

So how is it not a very important factor in sport today and how would it benefit RL to pretend otherwise?

I don't really know what point you are making? Edited by a.n Other
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No they aren't. Not all the clubs in the conference are full time.

 

Genuine question as I thought they were: which ones aren't.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Are they? How much is Koukash worth - I have looked and can't find anything - I know Moran makes some of the Time Rich Lists with a fortune of over £200m, not sure about Koukash though.

He is an international man of mystery is Dr Koukash. All of his UK based companies had very small turnovers and have gone bust or been liquidated (including a hotel in Liverpool which recently went pop owing £300k), and did not generate any kind of serious wealth. He claims to make most of his money from a company called EuroMa Tech but there is no record of this company being registered or filing accounts in any country according to the worldwide Privco database. A complete mystery really......

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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£11.1m over a 5 year period is £2.2m per year.

 

50 development staff at £30k costs per year is £1.5m - that is nothing. We can't spend money we don;t have.

 

The Development Officers were in place previously when the numbers went down, so maybe it wasn;t the right thing to do, although I don't believe that.

 

Maybe the onus needs to be on the clubs to support this more.

Which club is going to support youth and junior development in Leicester? Northampton? Bristol?

I would have thought that the RFL should expect Leeds, Wigan, Bradford, Hull etc. to do the bulk of the work in their areas and focus on the areas where that support just isn't available.

By the way, 2013-2017 is a 4 year cycle as it does April 2013 - April 2017.

"I am the avenging angel; I come with wings unfurled, I come with claws extended from halfway round the world. I am the God Almighty, I am the howling wind. I care not for your family; I care not for your kin. I come in search of terror, though terror is my own; I come in search of vengeance for crimes and crimes unknown. I care not for your children, I care not for your wives, I care not for your country, I care not for your lives." - (c) Jim Boyes - "The Avenging Angel"

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Genuine question as I thought they were: which ones aren't.

From talking to a collegue who's a Chester City season ticket holder and involved in a fair bit of there off-field comings and goings I believe they'll be part-time next season after being promoted last season.  From what she says it sounds like they'll have a tiny budget to operate on compared to some of the more established sides in the division, it'll be interesting to see how they go.

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A fairer comparison would be of rugby league in England to rugby union in Wales.  Early 2000s they decided they couldn't afford their P&R setup and went to a fully franchised model of merged clubs.  They later had the good fortune of being able to eventually shrink their professional league to the current 4 while pitching in with the Irish (4 clubs) and Scots (2 clubs) who did the same to create a single fully-pro sustainable league.

 

That has also allowed two Italian clubs to come into the fold without upsetting anyone greatly with the benefits to Italy of this increased level of competitive domestic level sport.

 

Finally, the teams that didn't make it to the franchised table in Wales, Scotland and Ireland were essentially told to lump it and they have with quite good grace after a few years to settle into the model once the likes of Leighton Samuel moved on.  Professional sport in those countries has improved substantially in the last decade while allowing the host nations to concentrate resources on the wider game, recognising that it really can take a decade or more for the full fruit of a strategic reorganisation to mature.  It was quite a brave move, especially in Scotland and Wales but it has paid off handsomely in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately, rugby league just doesn't have the neighbouring leagues to shrink into a fully competitive league.  I'd quite happily sign up to a model of 12 clubs in a fully franchised, not licensed, pro league now, abandoning P&R permanently.  I'd also have it written into the franchise constitution that there is an option to increase to 14 clubs if a 2nd French team meets proven criteria and a further expansion side with the same criteria.

Cracking post. The only thing I'd change is that Toulouse would be one of the 12.

"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."

Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959

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Everything you have said there is completely wrong. The NSWRL team in Sydney were piled on top of each other. Wests, Balmain, St George, Newtown, Souths, Easts and Canterbury were all within spitting distance of each other. In the fully professional era they were completely unsustainable and of that lot only Souths, Easts and Canterbury survive as stand alone clubs. It is exactly the same as Castleford, Featherstone and Wakefield.

 

Also the figures show that supporters do migrate to the bigger and more successful clubs. The crowd figures show that since the 1980s the big clubs like Wigan and Leeds have increased their crowds significantly and the support for second tier clubs has declined both proportionally and absolutely. If you put a high quality product on the field supporters will forget their petty parochialism and go and watch the nearest Super League club. Wests Tigers and St George Illawarra have thrived since their mergers. 

 

Also before the expansion of the NSWRL there were loads of first grade rugby league clubs in Australia. In 1987 there were 23 first grade rugby league clubs in Sydney and Brisbane alone. To create a national competition sacrifices had to be made. The BRL had to be sacrificed and 6 of the NSWRL's founding clubs had to merge or go semi pro. Clubs that had a much greater history of success and importance to the game than the small town clubs in the UK. 

 

The thing the NSWRL realised is that to grow it had to change and not bow down to the vested self interests of its smaller and economically unviable clubs. 

 

Good post. The current NRL sides do have fluctuating attendances with 10K an absolute bottom end average for a very small few (Penrith and Cronulla in recent times) as opposed to a long-term average. Most generally sit nearer to 20K average projected over the last 8 years or so.

 

Prior to the late 90s shake-up you had teams like St George and Western Suburbs averaging 6K indefinitely.

 

Everything the NRL has done has been needed and the results have vindicated their tough decision making.

Edited by DeadShotKeen
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Leigh Centurions are completely irrelevant to the future of Rugby League.

 

If they never again play in SL what would happen? People in Leigh would still play Rugby League at junior and community level. People in Leigh would still go and watch the Centurions. Other people in Leigh would still go and watch Wigan, like they do already. The best juniors produced in Leigh would still sign for Wigan and other SL clubs, like they currently do and always have.

 

On the flip side, Centurions playing in SL would not produce one single extra player than we currently see coming from the town. It would not produce any new investors in the game. It would not increase our corporate base. It would not increase our broadcast revenue. It would not increase the media attention our sport gets.

 

Leigh, as a town, is important to Rugby League. Leigh Centurions, as a club, are not. The same could be said of any number of towns in the north of England.

I never mentioned them playing in SL.

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From talking to a collegue who's a Chester City season ticket holder and involved in a fair bit of there off-field comings and goings I believe they'll be part-time next season after being promoted last season.  From what she says it sounds like they'll have a tiny budget to operate on compared to some of the more established sides in the division, it'll be interesting to see how they go.

 

I don't know the exact numbers. But I know FC Halifax Town won't be next year I would say maybe 6 or 7 teams might not be full time.

 

 

From talking to a collegue who's a Chester City season ticket holder and involved in a fair bit of there off-field comings and goings I believe they'll be part-time next season after being promoted last season.  From what she says it sounds like they'll have a tiny budget to operate on compared to some of the more established sides in the division, it'll be interesting to see how they go.

 

Thanks to you both.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I'm interested in purchasing whatever it is your company sells/builds etc.

Can I come?

:sleep:  sorry pal - all tickets now taken up, although it was much harder than I expected!

 

Watch out for rain next Friday when I'm there!

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