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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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Page 157, post #3127  Think we'll beat "Cas Vegas is Ace"?

The idea that the RFL is celebrating mediocrity is difficult to understand. The top eight of SL will still be playing off to reach a grand final as far as I can see and below that there is now an intriguing battle to be had involving the rest of SL, who would normally just be playing the season out with nothing at stake, and the best of the Championship plus a similar battle lower down the scale. I'm really struggling to come up with one good reason why this won't capture the imagination and have the potential to increase crowds.

And by the way, if Fev don't make the cut then it will be down to them not being good enough and that's how it should be. I think your comment was uncalled for to be honest.

 

 

Fair enough mate , To be honest i didnt have you in mind when i wrote it, There have been one or two on who seem to have rather a large chip on their shoulder. No offence intended.

 

I do not like this idea at all but i shall still be going to games, I will be surprised if it lasts long , but we shall see.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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I have done nothing of the sort and you know that.  

 

All I have done is ask that all forum members are treated the same when posts are deleted because of abuse or topic derailment.  My PM in July and my deleted posts this week show that this is not the case.

 

I would appreciate it if you would stick to the facts without trying to put words into my mouth.

 

Ian, as we are getting nowhere fast here, and I do not wish to derail this thread further, I have sent you a PM to follow up our earlier communications to which you have made reference here. It may be of interest to you.

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Fair enough mate , To be honest i didnt have you in mind when i wrote it, There have been one or two on who seem to have rather a large chip on their shoulder. No offence intended.

I do not like this idea at all but i shall still be going to games, I will be surprised if it lasts long , but we shall see.

Thanks for your reply and I might be biased here but I've never met a more passionate band of supporters than the Fev lads and lasses. I think it was Wellsey who asked the question of SL fans about how they'd feel if their club had been shut out for so long as some of the more ambitious championship sides have been, despite their best efforts to comply with RFL requirements. It's not pleasant especially when there's a perception of injustice in that a certain few existing SL clubs seem to repeatedly fail the system but yet retain their status. The rules of licensing weren't adhered to, simple as that and it's not nice.

Most on here haven't had to experience such frustration so I can appreciate their lack of understanding of how our fans feel. Fax, Leigh, Sheffield are all in the same situation but it seems it's the Fev fans who make most of the noise on here on behalf of the championship.

It's a new chapter for the sport with opportunity for every single club and that's just how it should be. If you're good enough you'll reap the rewards. Can't wait for it to start.

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Interesting and another clue that this system is actually about creating an 8 club SL.

 

Well given that the top eight will play each other 3 times creating a "boring" competition in which crowds will drop according to some, and that the middle eight's crowds will shoot up thanks to "jeapordy" according to KPMG then my new calculator for fat fingers will come in handy. First use will be this years relegation battle - a warm up to the main event 2015. I'll be able to see the RL public's reaction to the battle to avoid going down. There was only two points between Wakefield, Cas, Widnes and Bradford last year with HKR four points above that, some fascinating games to come for absolute sure for me, who will win?? But also who will turn up........

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Ian, as we are getting nowhere fast here, and I do not wish to derail this thread further, I have sent you a PM to follow up our earlier communications to which you have made reference here. It may be of interest to you.

Cheers John

Just so it's public I apologies to the mods for suggesting censorship on this forum.

I also apologies to other memebers for derailing the thread.

I do think I've had a point in the past but do appreciate that the mods work hard to ensure that the forum is fair and fun for all.

Looking forward to the RL future and proper RL debates.

Cheers Ian

"You cant be scared of death. When that time comes, it comes....I've been blessed. God's looked out for me, so, I'm happy." -Sean Taylor, #21, Washington Redskins

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So, we are now up to 196 pages and there is agreement.

 

The clubs i like should be assessed for Super League by how much Super League will benefit them (be that Toulouse or Leigh)

 

Other clubs should be assessed for Super League by how much they will benefit Super League (be that Toulouse or Leigh).

 

Is that about it?

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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So, we are now up to 196 pages and there is agreement.

 

The clubs i like should be assessed for Super League by how much Super League will benefit them (be that Toulouse or Leigh)

 

Other clubs should be assessed for Super League by how much they will benefit Super League (be that Toulouse or Leigh).

 

Is that about it?

 

Typical Euro arrogance from a Copenhagen Black Swan supporter.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Some interesting points from the Swiss regarding this league format...

From the 10th game the pressure began [to be involved in the top eight] and this pressure made the clubs really careless - signing players, changing the coach and taking financial risks. Apart from the few big clubs, it was not sustainable.

They intended to make the whole thing a little bit more interesting for the public. But in the end, the difference between the teams in the 'championship' league and the teams from the second division was too big, so it wasn't interesting at all.

Switzerland used the model for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003, but after attendances fell through the floor and sponsorship and television revenue dipped they voted for change

Switzerland did not have the strength in depth to increase the size of their top flight to 16 or 18 teams. And while two leagues of 12 with an 8-8-8 split was viewed as a compromise, sponsors were not keen to be associated with the bottom 16 after the split.

“It was very complicated for television and sponsors who didn’t want to be associated with any meaningless matches. It is much easier to have two separate divisions.

“The second part of the season, with eight clubs playing for the title, was as successful as the current system. But fans were not turning up in the same numbers, especially at the start of the season or when the games didn’t matter as much."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swiss-football-chiefs-slam-scotlands-1524036

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/21313899

I’m not prejudiced, I hate everybody equally

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Some interesting points from the Swiss regarding this league format...

From the 10th game the pressure began [to be involved in the top eight] and this pressure made the clubs really careless - signing players, changing the coach and taking financial risks. Apart from the few big clubs, it was not sustainable.

They intended to make the whole thing a little bit more interesting for the public. But in the end, the difference between the teams in the 'championship' league and the teams from the second division was too big, so it wasn't interesting at all.

Switzerland used the model for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003, but after attendances fell through the floor and sponsorship and television revenue dipped they voted for change

“The second part of the season, with eight clubs playing for the title, was as successful as the current system. But fans were not turning up in the same numbers, especially at the start of the season or when the games didn’t matter as much."

 

As conveyed in RL&LE today

 

Some of the biggest players in SL did not want this. It was not "unanimous" and the politics go on.

 

This is why people on here beyond those buoyed up by the idea the new structure may see their own club now get in SL, can sense it's just a transitory phase leading to an "all change" again a few years down the line.

Edited by The Parksider
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Some interesting points from the Swiss regarding this league format...

From the 10th game the pressure began [to be involved in the top eight] and this pressure made the clubs really careless - signing players, changing the coach and taking financial risks. Apart from the few big clubs, it was not sustainable.

They intended to make the whole thing a little bit more interesting for the public. But in the end, the difference between the teams in the 'championship' league and the teams from the second division was too big, so it wasn't interesting at all.

Switzerland used the model for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003, but after attendances fell through the floor and sponsorship and television revenue dipped they voted for change

Switzerland did not have the strength in depth to increase the size of their top flight to 16 or 18 teams. And while two leagues of 12 with an 8-8-8 split was viewed as a compromise, sponsors were not keen to be associated with the bottom 16 after the split.

“It was very complicated for television and sponsors who didn’t want to be associated with any meaningless matches. It is much easier to have two separate divisions.

“The second part of the season, with eight clubs playing for the title, was as successful as the current system. But fans were not turning up in the same numbers, especially at the start of the season or when the games didn’t matter as much."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swiss-football-chiefs-slam-scotlands-1524036

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/21313899

 

Doing a little bit of reading around this.  It seems the Swiss carried their points slightly differently in that for the championship section of the top division points gained during the regular (qualifying) season were halved before the final section.  As per the RFL plan, those in the second 8 started on zero.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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My views on this are that this will be in play for about 3 years, during that time I expect 20 clubs to become full time (Toulouse and a welsh club in that number), and will have had 2/3 years to tune the back office/academies etc. At that point we change to two full time tens with straight p&r, what we should have done now but I can understand why we haven't

Edited by sweaty craiq
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My views on this are that this will be in play for about 3 years, during that time I expect 20 clubs to become full time (Toulouse and a welsh club in that number), and will have had 2/3 years to tune the back office/academies etc. At that point we change to two full time tens with straight p&r, what we should have done now but I can understand why we haven't

 

I can appreciate that two tens, full time with well run academies, with P & R between including Toulouse and Wales is just about exactly what the game needs to aim for.

 

Three things:-

 

1. Your being as mean to the 19 clubs shut out forever on this plan as the current 14 SL clubs are being mean to your club?

 

2. A bigger and better TV deal may be in the offing as revealed today, However your plan would require the current deal being tripled.

 

3. Only four SL academies are up to scratch. How do we find the players and staff to revitalise another 16?

 

Unless you see another way of financing/arranging it?

Edited by The Parksider
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I have posed the question on this thread 3 times “why are the supporters of the teams in the lower echelons of SL afraid of the new system” It is quite obvious from some of the more vociferous comments placed by the supporters of these clubs that there is a fear factor in entering a 7 game play off against clubs from a “sub standard” competition.

 

I am a supporter of one of the 4 clubs of the Championship that is expected to be in the mix, and as such I welcome the opportunity of our players testing themselves in this format with the ultimate prize to take, if successful.

 

Furthermore, I can only foresee that it will also be good for SL, this coming season should see some interesting games to avoid the last two spots (if that is the way of demotion from the top 14 to 12), and in the next season surely no one will want to finish outside the top 8, so that should keep the intensity of the SL till the end of season instead of some of the totally banal games that have been served up when there was no fear of relegation.

 

As some have suggested, the middle 8 of the first 3x8 series should consist of 6 of this seasons present SL sides and that leaves only 2 other places up for grabs from the present Championship, the odds are in favour of no change from the now incumbents of SL to still to be competing in SL at the on set of the 2016 season.

 

So in MHO, this format improves the quality of SL, by bringing more meaning which means more intensity to games, it also brings a new vigour, expectation and hope to those of the Championship that desire it, As I stated at the beginning I have asked the question what is the fear of this format, I never got any answers then, and I don’t expect any now. 

"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

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Cheers John

Just so it's public I apologies to the mods for suggesting censorship on this forum.

I also apologies to other memebers for derailing the thread.

I do think I've had a point in the past but do appreciate that the mods work hard to ensure that the forum is fair and fun for all.

Looking forward to the RL future and proper RL debates.

Cheers Ian

 

 

This post strikes me of 1984 (George Orwell).....

 

Will you now disappear for ever......

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My views on this are that this will be in play for about 3 years, during that time I expect 20 clubs to become full time (Toulouse and a welsh club in that number), and will have had 2/3 years to tune the back office/academies etc. At that point we change to two full time tens with straight p&r, what we should have done now but I can understand why we haven't

 

Then we will wake up and eat our cornflakes....

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I have posed the question on this thread 3 times “why are the supporters of the teams in the lower echelons of SL afraid of the new system” It is quite obvious from some of the more vociferous comments placed by the supporters of these clubs that there is a fear factor in entering a 7 game play off against clubs from a “sub standard” competition.

 

I am a supporter of one of the 4 clubs of the Championship that is expected to be in the mix, and as such I welcome the opportunity of our players testing themselves in this format with the ultimate prize to take, if successful.

 

Furthermore, I can only foresee that it will also be good for SL, this coming season should see some interesting games to avoid the last two spots (if that is the way of demotion from the top 14 to 12), and in the next season surely no one will want to finish outside the top 8, so that should keep the intensity of the SL till the end of season instead of some of the totally banal games that have been served up when there was no fear of relegation.

 

As some have suggested, the middle 8 of the first 3x8 series should consist of 6 of this seasons present SL sides and that leaves only 2 other places up for grabs from the present Championship, the odds are in favour of no change from the now incumbents of SL to still to be competing in SL at the on set of the 2016 season.

 

So in MHO, this format improves the quality of SL, by bringing more meaning which means more intensity to games, it also brings a new vigour, expectation and hope to those of the Championship that desire it, As I stated at the beginning I have asked the question what is the fear of this format, I never got any answers then, and I don’t expect any now. 

 

So to clarify a current championship club will need to be in the top 4 of their league which will now contain 2 SL clubs....they will then need to perform at a higher standard for 7 weeks and try to finish in the top 4...

 

only 4th wont be good enough because they will then have to win a playoff game against the SL side they are displacing....

 

Now with the 2 current championship clubs 'moving up a level' it will definitely increase intensity for them if they can keep the score below 50.... I don't see the benefit for SL......other than there will be meaningful games......

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So to clarify a current championship club will need to be in the top 4 of their league which will now contain 2 SL clubs....they will then need to perform at a higher standard for 7 weeks and try to finish in the top 4...

only 4th wont be good enough because they will then have to win a playoff game against the SL side they are displacing....

Now with the 2 current championship clubs 'moving up a level' it will definitely increase intensity for them if they can keep the score below 50.... I don't see the benefit for SL......other than there will be meaningful games......

providing the team finishing 5th is a super league team
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League Express editorial, 20th Jan 2014

Is peace breaking out?

http://www.totalrl.com/web/peace-breaking/

(Online poll: How do you feel about the RFL's 2x12 & 3x8 plan to restructure the leagues in 2015?)

 

rlle_200114_200.jpg

League Express is Britain's biggest selling Rugby League publication
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My views on this are that this will be in play for about 3 years, during that time I expect 20 clubs to become full time (Toulouse and a welsh club in that number), and will have had 2/3 years to tune the back office/academies etc. At that point we change to two full time tens with straight p&r, what we should have done now but I can understand why we haven't

 

........and an Emergency Food Bank for the players to dip into.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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I can appreciate that two tens, full time with well run academies, with P & R between including Toulouse and Wales is just about exactly what the game needs to aim for.

 

Three things:-

 

1. Your being as mean to the 19 clubs shut out forever on this plan as the current 14 SL clubs are being mean to your club?

 

2. A bigger and better TV deal may be in the offing as revealed today, However your plan would require the current deal being tripled.

 

3. Only four SL academies are up to scratch. How do we find the players and staff to revitalise another 16?

 

Unless you see another way of financing/arranging it?

 

1. I would hope we can go 10/12 then 12/12 if we have sufficient clubs that can come to the table, we may even get more than 20 FT clubs by year 3

2. No it wouldn't, £19m per season and you have 1.2m and 700k more if we can secure a french tv deal

4. Isn't that a shocking stat after 6 years of franchising, things must get better

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League Express editorial, 20th Jan 2014

Is peace breaking out?

http://www.totalrl.com/web/peace-breaking/

(Online poll: How do you feel about the RFL's 2x12 & 3x8 plan to restructure the leagues in 2015?)

 

rlle_200114_200.jpg

 

A better poll question would have been 'is the new proposal better than the licencing we currently have?' My personal preference being 2x10, then 2x12/3x8, then straight p&r, then licencing - so how do I answer the question?

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1. I would hope we can go 10/12 then 12/12 if we have sufficient clubs that can come to the table, we may even get more than 20 FT clubs by year 3

2. No it wouldn't, £19m per season and you have 1.2m and 700k more if we can secure a french tv deal

4. Isn't that a shocking stat after 6 years of franchising, things must get better

 

4. Isn't that a shocking stat after 6 years of franchising, things must get better

 

Not at all.   Things can always get better and its good that the game wants to move forward.  Just a shame that that it hasn't actually opted for moving on from licensing to franchising.

Four legs good - two legs bad

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