So, what have we learned???

[thehullram]

England have ultimately beaten NZ whilst we were missing a number of first teamers. A number of players have moved up the pecking order (some without playing) and a number have moved down. 

Positives:-

Mackinson proved to be international class

Thompson fitted in really well, looked like he’d played 20 tests

Sam Tomkins took his chances and must be considered

Jonny Lomax, proved a good inclusion, made very few mistakes and worked well on attack

Jake Connor, great partnership on the left wing, must be nailed down for a centre spot

whitehead and Bateman. Nailed down both 2nd row spots for the next few years 

Negatives

O’Loughlin, must be time for him to call it a day

Percival, Bennett really can’t fancy him if he couldn’t get a game ahead of Gildart

Milner, no impact in either game

Myler, tried his hardest, tackled well, but not good enough for this level

If we had all fit to face the Aussies next year my team would be:-

Lomax

Mackinson

Connor

Watkins

Hall

Widdop

Tomkins

T Burgess

Hodgson

Graham

Whitehead

Bateman

S Burgess

subs

G Burgess

Hill / Walmsley

Thompson

Clark / Roby

[SilentAssassin]

half back is still up for grabs. rest of the team is starting to pick itself now, some real strength in depth in the pack. with a full team we will be a match for anything NZ/Australia can put out on the field at this current time.

[MZH]

2 hours ago, thehullram said:

England have ultimately beaten NZ whilst we were missing a number of first teamers. A number of players have moved up the pecking order (some without playing) and a number have moved down. 

Positives:-

Mackinson proved to be international class

Thompson fitted in really well, looked like he’d played 20 tests

Sam Tomkins took his chances and must be considered

Jonny Lomax, proved a good inclusion, made very few mistakes and worked well on attack

Jake Connor, great partnership on the left wing, must be nailed down for a centre spot

whitehead and Bateman. Nailed down both 2nd row spots for the next few years 

Negatives

O’Loughlin, must be time for him to call it a day

Percival, Bennett really can’t fancy him if he couldn’t get a game ahead of Gildart

Milner, no impact in either game

Myler, tried his hardest, tackled well, but not good enough for this level

If we had all fit to face the Aussies next year my team would be:-

Lomax

Mackinson

Connor

Watkins

Hall

Widdop

Tomkins

T Burgess

Hodgson

Graham

Whitehead

Bateman

S Burgess

subs

G Burgess

Hill / Walmsley

Thompson

Clark / Roby

As I have just alluded to on the player ratings thread I'm not sure Connor at centre is the best fit for this team. To see the best of him you need to get the ball in his hands as often as possible, and England don't go to the flanks all that much. Also, whilst I thought he did his job in defence well enough, he isn't a great defender, and he doesn't make great yards on exit sets either. 

A Connor/Widdop half back pairing with Gildart and Watkins in the centres and Tomkins (or maybe Hardaker) at FB could be dynamite imo.

[Dunbar]

I quite like Lomax as a player but in the modern game the full back is the key attacking weapon.  Lomax has reasonable hands and is quite creative but what he lacks is pace.  Whether it be a kick return or an injection into the line, he simply doesn't have the pace to be a genuine threat.

Because of the this, I think he is better suited to stand off but he lacks the kicking game to be a top quality half.

Widdop is far and away our best half back but I still don't think we have solved the full back/scrum half decision.  If England had everyone available I would shift Tomkins to full back and play Widdop and Williams at 6 and 7.

I think we are in good shape for edge forwards and middles... Watkins would be back into the centre if he is fit and finds form. Connor has done enough to keep the left centre spot with Gildart a back up centre in the squad.

I am sure Bennett will stick with Hodgson but I think there is better available.  Roby should be the starting 9 and if we want impact off the bench I would go with Clark but I think McShane is a better hooker than Hodgson now.

Hall has been very good for England for a long time but the left wing is now Makinson's and Hall has to force his way back in.  McGilvary offers so much on the right I would stick with him. 

If everyone is fit and playing well, I would go with this:

1. Tomkins

2. Makinson

3. Connor

4. Watkins

5. McGilvary

6. Williams

7. Widdop

8. T. Burgess

9. Roby

10. Graham

11. Bateman

12. Whitehead

13. S. Burgess

 

14. Thompson

15. Walmsley/G. Burgess/ Hill

16. Walmsley/G. Burgess/ Hill

17. Clark

 

[DavidM]

I’m not sure Connor is an international centre in terms of his best position or the best use of him . He may be there by default with the options we have but I just don’t understand how guys like him and Gildart get at least a chance and Percival who is included in squads , and before them , doesn’t even get a chance . Seems very rough on a guy who has excelled which is all you can do ? I like Connor in my squad , I’d think ideally he’s a 6 . There’s a few positions like 1 , centre , a half that are not set or very top notch yet 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

Despite not having Luke Gale, Alex Walmsley, Gareth Widdop and Sam Burgess, who’d probably all have been included in the team, we managed to put together a decent enough England squad to beat New Zealand. That’s a big positive. 

Yesterday we were without the above, plus O’Loughlin, Tomkins and G Burgess, who’d have all been there. 

[Lowdesert]

20 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I’m not sure Connor is an international centre in terms of his best position or the best use of him . He may be there by default with the options we have but I just don’t understand how guys like him and Gildart get at least a chance and Percival who is included in squads , and before them , doesn’t even get a chance . Seems very rough on a guy who has excelled which is all you can do ? I like Connor in my squad , I’d think ideally he’s a 6 . There’s a few positions like 1 , centre , a half that are not set or very top notch yet 

One of the main aims of the GB coaching staff was to maximise the time Hanley got the ball.  Not comparing Connor to Hanley but the best players will always make things happen.  Yesterday, for England, it was purely mechanical but that might be the result several reasons.

[DavidM]

6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

One of the main aims of the GB coaching staff was to maximise the time Hanley got the ball.  Not comparing Connor to Hanley but the best players will always make things happen.  Yesterday, for England, it was purely mechanical but that might be the result several reasons.

I think he’s got a bit of xfactor that we often aren’t overly blessed in behind the scrum . 6 to Widdops 7 , who has become a supreme controlling half back , could be worth  at least a go . Get those guys who can do something nearer the play

[EastLondonMike]

Co-sign on Connor. He's clearly got talents, but im not sure what his best position is. I see him more as a Centre than a Stand-Off, but not 100% a Centre. If that makes sense.

Probably very little chance of him being shifted to Fullback at club level, but think that could be a good positional fit for him. I'd say he's on par with Lomax in terms of speed. Did he start out as a Full back at Hudds?

[EagleEyePie]

3 hours ago, thehullram said:

England have ultimately beaten NZ whilst we were missing a number of first teamers. A number of players have moved up the pecking order (some without playing) and a number have moved down. 

Positives:-

Mackinson proved to be international class

Thompson fitted in really well, looked like he’d played 20 tests

Sam Tomkins took his chances and must be considered

Jonny Lomax, proved a good inclusion, made very few mistakes and worked well on attack

Jake Connor, great partnership on the left wing, must be nailed down for a centre spot

whitehead and Bateman. Nailed down both 2nd row spots for the next few years 

Negatives

O’Loughlin, must be time for him to call it a day

Percival, Bennett really can’t fancy him if he couldn’t get a game ahead of Gildart

Milner, no impact in either game

Myler, tried his hardest, tackled well, but not good enough for this level

 

Agree with some, although Percival not getting a game is hardly a negative, it just shows that we've got plenty of depth at centre given someone with his talent didn't make the squad. Gildart is quality and will only get better and probably got his place in the squad because of his defence and how well he reads the game. He didn't get the opportunities that Connor did on the left edge but he had a decent series. With Watkins returning there should be a good fight on between him, Gildart, Connor, Percival and Lyne (plus perhaps a few others coming into contention) over the next year or two. It's exciting for England.

Connor is a bit of an enigma though. He could be a long term option for England at centre but if he has ambitions on a place in the halves he'll have to start playing there regularly.

Presumably Williams has done enough to be considered a starting half alongside Widdop. He had a good tournament, threatened the Kiwis time and time again, particularly when he got chance to take the ball to the line. There are still things to be improved but that's always been the case with English halves. Gale will be good competition too and then it may be Tomkins who is next up.

Lomax was strong and dependable. I don't think he's a world class fullback though and it seems to be a position that we're lacking quality in compared to the Aussies and Kiwis. Tomkins is obviously an option but I don't think he's world class either.

Makinson should now be our first choice winger. That's a position we look to have real strength in depth in. Hall could have a good season in the NRL and be back in contention, McGillvary could be vulnerable to the likes of Manfredi and Johnstone and we've got other young wingers like Joe Burgess who will want to get back into the side or break into it.

Whitehead and Bateman were big positives and I'd agree that O'Loughlin should call time on his England career now. He was great in the World Cup but having him injured for the final cost us, and then missing pretty much all of this test series should be a sign that he can't be relied upon to stay injury free at international level. I think he's the sort of player who won't retire and will always be willing to play if picked though so it's up to Bennett to see the signs.

Milner is probably too small and more of a 'workhorse' rather than someone who could excel at international level.

As for Myler, he wasn't bad, just steady. He's improved a lot in my opinion since his early days (when embarrassingly he was getting into the England side with ease - showing how far we've come since then) but I doubt his call up was anything more than a necessity due to injury. We don't have great depth in the halves though.

[Tommygilf]

I'm still not convinced by Hodgson at hooker. Yes he tackles well and all but I just don't think he's good enough to justify being on the pitch for the full 80. Imo we play with better attacking flow with Clark. Along with Bennett's comments about Makinson being "hidden", I do wonder if some players are just picked because they're in the NRL.

[Bert1]

Williams has enough pace and footwork IMO to be able to take the line on like Nikorima and he should do it more often. Tomkins out of hand kicking game is poor and should take a leaf out of Shaun Johnson's book. Williams and Widdop in the halves for me.

Don't rate Connor much at centre and thought that centre is/was our weakest position.

Lomax has played well and is solid enough but you need more than that at Int level. He doesn't compare well with Tedesco, RTS, DWZ. Would have Hardaker in the team if he wasn't a loon.

The pack is good with strength in depth.

Would leave the wings the same at the moment. Hall, however, does deserve a chance when he's back fit.

 

[DavidM]

Yes . You look at the Kiwis and they had DWZ at full back , but that’s because RTS was injured !! They have Nikorima and Johnson , and won’t have consigned Foran to the scrap heap just yet . No need going into the Aussies fullback stocks , and will always churn out quality halves . I don’t worry at all about our pack , but those are the three positions you need to be top world class to compete consistently 

[Bring back the Boyd]

I’ll probably get shot down in flames for this but I believe James Graham has had his time—- he seems to have less impact than any of the other props and rarely breaks the line. I would have him behind the Burgess’s, Thompson, Hill, Walmsley and even Mike Cooper—- just gonna put my tin hat on

[yipyee]

Roby should start. The true man of steel this season and never underperforms he is better than hodgson but the Aussies bias is in play....

[yipyee]

3 minutes ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I’ll probably get shot down in flames for this but I believe James Graham has had his time—- he seems to have less impact than any of the other props and rarely breaks the line. I would have him behind the Burgess’s, Thompson, Hill, Walmsley and even Mike Cooper—- just gonna put my tin hat on

Walmsley is international class but needs to prove he has overcome his injury.

[DavidM]

6 minutes ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

I’ll probably get shot down in flames for this but I believe James Graham has had his time—- he seems to have less impact than any of the other props and rarely breaks the line. I would have him behind the Burgess’s, Thompson, Hill, Walmsley and even Mike Cooper—- just gonna put my tin hat on

Shouldn’t do , there’s no doubt his impact is lessening . His leadership and presence is highly valued but with wear and tear and injury he’s not anywhere the levels he was .  You’d want him there in your group though I’d say 

[Dunbar]

One of the parts of Graham's game that is often overlooked is his work rate and effectiveness in defence.  In this series he made 106 tackles and missed just 3.  In the final test where we lost 34-0 he made 37 tackles and didn't miss a single one.  If others had have played like Graham yesterday we would not have been on the end of that scoreline.

[Number 16]

Out of the backs who played in this series the only one I'd have as a shoe-in in the same position next year is Makinson. Connor I'd like to see go to the halves with Widdop, with Sam, possibly, at FB. A fit Watkins is a must at centre with Gildart his probable partner, but others are in contention. The other wing could be an interesting 'battle' for the spot - McGillvary did well, but let's see how Hall goes in the NRL, whilst TJ will continue to develop.

For me Myler has just spilt his drink in the Last Chance Saloon, whilst Sean O'L is, sadly, too physically spent and too old to continue with. Greenwood adds nothing. 

Hodgson is worth his place in the starting 13, but we need Roby coming on with Josh moving to loose. It seems to work as an option (though it has been Clark).

 

[DavidM]

It’s often the case in sport that you become a better player when you’re not playing , and Watkins has very rarely transfered club form to the international arena . Makinson is a shoo-in now , Widdop is a certainty but you’d say and hope the other positions behind the scrum are there to be grabbed 

[Tex Evans Thigh]

Fullback and halves definitely still the talking the point.

Lomax was good this series but not likely the long term answer at full back or in the halves.

I really hope Hardaker turns things around as he is the obvious wildcard for the FB spot, Tomkins and Lomax in with a shout as well but I'm not sure after that. Looking at the WC in 2021 then maybe Jack Walker will come through.

I like Richardson's chances to push into the halfback spot to partner Widdop over the next few years. He seems like the traditional 7 type player that everyone is craving and has a good kicking game. Williams needs to improve with his game management and options to be true international class. 

Looking to the future, Trueman at Cas would be a someone that maybe ready by 2021 too.

Connor has put himself forward and maybe his position will be bench utility going forward but I liked him in the centres. Makinson was obviously class and has cemented his place.

McGilvary might come under pressure in the next couple of seasons from people like Manfredi and Hall.

Pack looks solid and thompson is a great addition. Jammer is coming to the end now but I suspect will manage another season at international level at least

I'm not sure about the abuse Hodgson gets. He's clearly a top level performer and maybe he tries a little too hard when playing for England. His slight of hand round the ruck goes unnoticed by many i feel and the criticism is largely unfair. Combined with someone who can lift the tempo like Clarke, he's good.

I can see Chris Hill coming under pressure to keep his place next year. Not the best year in SL and was sloppy in the test yesterday. He's been great for England and will still be in the reckoning but with Walmsley and Burgess coming back in might have a challenge.

Whitehead and Bateman must be our first choice backrowers now barring something out of the ordinary. Looking forward to seeing them both play at Canberra,

Positive signs all round.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

7 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It’s often the case in sport that you become a better player when you’re not playing , and Watkins has very rarely transfered club form to the international arena . Makinson is a shoo-in now , Widdop is a certainty but you’d say and hope the other positions behind the scrum are there to be grabbed 

Watkins was possibly our best player at the world cup and for me was the best centre on show, certainly in the final.

[MrPosh]

19 minutes ago, Number 16 said:

Out of the backs who played in this series the only one I'd have as a shoe-in in the same position next year is Makinson. Connor I'd like to see go to the halves with Widdop, with Sam, possibly, at FB. A fit Watkins is a must at centre with Gildart his probable partner, but others are in contention. The other wing could be an interesting 'battle' for the spot - McGillvary did well, but let's see how Hall goes in the NRL, whilst TJ will continue to develop.

For me Myler has just spilt his drink in the Last Chance Saloon, whilst Sean O'L is, sadly, too physically spent and too old to continue with. Greenwood adds nothing. 

Hodgson is worth his place in the starting 13, but we need Roby coming on with Josh moving to loose. It seems to work as an option (though it has been Clark).

 

I perfer Sam at loose forward and I think he'll move back to the front row, soon.

In terms of Hall, his NRL stint is irrelevant. He's been the best winger in the world for many years. Success or otherwise in the NRL isn't going to impact on that (although it will show if he still has it).

[MZH]

1 hour ago, EastLondonMike said:

Probably very little chance of him being shifted to Fullback at club level, but think that could be a good positional fit for him. I'd say he's on par with Lomax in terms of speed. Did he start out as a Full back at Hudds?

I wouldn't rule that out completely. Quite a few Hull fans (and I am one of them) think that Connor at FB and Shaul on the wing could be a good fit for us. We have 3 playmakers, Kelly, Sneyd and Connor, and all of them need to be involved as much as possible. Shaul's strengths are his pace, his broken field running and his scoots from dummy half, but his link play is poor. Connor at 1 would give us a much more balanced and varied attack imo.

Connor has got squad number 14 btw, but it would be a sin to not have him starting every week. 

Not sure where he started, but the first time I ever remember seeing him he was playing FB.

[DavidM]

3 minutes ago, MZH said:

I wouldn't rule that out completely. Quite a few Hull fans (and I am one of them) think that Connor at FB and Shaul on the wing could be a good fit for us. We have 3 playmakers, Kelly, Sneyd and Connor, and all of them need to be involved as much as possible. Shaul's strengths are his pace, his broken field running and his scoots from dummy half, but his link play is poor. Connor at 1 would give us a much more balanced and varied attack imo.

Connor has got squad number 14 btw, but it would be a sin to not have him starting every week. 

Not sure where he started, but the first time I ever remember seeing him he was playing FB.

Sometimes being seen as a ‘ utility ‘ doesn’t do you any good when looking for a rep jumper . He certainly for starters needs a set spot you’d think