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John Drake

The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

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3 minutes ago, RP London said:

I cannot answer those questions because i am not them.. 

This is the problem.. there are so many ifs and buts and people on both sides of the argument use definitives as if those what ifs will definitely happen. You think the Toronto blueprint will be copied, but you dont know that for sure, they may be happy to carry on.. Equally success in Toronto may be used for Toronto to start ploughing heavily into the junior game (just because they haven't done yet may be part of the plan rather than pure negligence).. therefore the Toronto "blueprint" may not be a bad one.. 

we are far to worried about what if this and what if that rather than lets have it in our mind but actually there is the other side of the "what if" scenario that could be really good for us and i think at the moment the upside is a lot larger than the potential downside. 

OK I thought this was a discussion page wherby people 'suppose' differing scenarios and discuss them, just as you did in the post I answered.

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1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

OK I thought this was a discussion page wherby people 'suppose' differing scenarios and discuss them, just as you did in the post I answered.

Come on Harry dont be daft thats not what i am saying is it! 

This has gone on for 117 pages, it goes around in circles every single bloody time Toronto are brought up.. but we dont discuss them as what ifs we discuss them as 2 polar sides that believe their version of events is the one that is going to play out. I am trying to show that actually the huge area of grey is more than likely and we cannot prejudge that. 

But if you want to go around in circles for another 117 pages go for your life..  

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21 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Perhaps David Argyle is worried about stepping on union’s toes or being seen as a competitor?

Supposing that is the reason, how is it ever going to change?

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7 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Is it 10 locals in Mr Perez's plan he states he wants in his Ottawa team? Maybe they would be competitive to a certain degree in League one, but the Championship would be a bridge to far for novice players, do you think they would be happy to proceed with the plan if they were on the wrong side of some big scores week in week out?

My guess, and it’s only a guess, but based on the way other NA sports operate, is that 10 will be signed, but it will be cut down to 4-5 by pre season. Maybe 1-3 get meaningful game time over the season, then who knows, but at least they seem to want to try.

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On 08/07/2020 at 11:07, POR said:

The letter makes some valid points, yes there are a good number of rugby players in Canada, and the reason none have even been trialled by the Wolfpack is unclear, the more I think the more I’m sure that MoK has hit the nail on the head when he says Argyle does not seem to want to tread on unions toes and wants to avoid a code war. However the writer is wrong in his assertion that MLR teams full of Canadians will grab headlines over here, the reality is that both codes of rugby are fighting for the media scraps that fall off the table, as the NHL, MLB NBA and NFL will always dominate the media. If the Wolfpack were somehow to win SL with a Canadian core it might grab a few minutes on Sportsnet then it would be back to Sidney Crosby’s latest injury, however development is essential if the team is to survive long term, in a salary capped world you can’t import for ever.

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On 08/07/2020 at 14:28, Man of Kent said:

Canada is an established rugby nation. OK, it’s hardly New Zealand but it’s still a ‘White Dominion’ where rugby is a (small) part of the social fabric.

Perhaps David Argyle is worried about stepping on union’s toes or being seen as a competitor?

And thinking about it, maybe that’s why the London Skolars thing didn’t come off? 

That might’ve been a decent feeder club arrangement - a bit like Melbourne in QLD - that attracted young rugby players of both codes. Perhaps the other ‘Wolfpack’ - Saracens - talked them out of it?

Or maybe Toronto are content to be a UK-based club and not bother with player development to save costs?

All wild speculation, of course 🙂

Once I would have dismissed any concerns Argyle had with local RU as irrelevant. Union here is strictly a beer league.

Or rather it was. The arrival of MLR and the Toronto Arrows means they have to be taken seriously and Argyle cannot afford to alienate them. Personally I'd far sooner watch RL than RU but RU is the more established game. Even though more people would watch a single TWP game than all the ORU games combined for the week.

But the Arrows have the full support and backing of MLR. Most of the time it seems Argyle is going it alone with little to no support from SL.

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3 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Supposing that is the reason, how is it ever going to change?

Not for the foreseeable future....Argyle doesn't want to poach and start a war.

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41 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Chicken?

Smart.

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51 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Chicken?

Would you feel confident taking on an establishment institution that has over 100 years of history (as well as a history of successfully snuffing out your sport) when the people who supposedly should have your backs seem to be antagonistic to you at every turn?

The Wolfpack probably get a better reception in the Toronto union community than in many English league boardrooms/terraces; and that's saying something!

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37 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Because...?

Because a the biggest part of their fan base are rugby union players and fans. You don't make friends or customers by attacking or fighting with something they like. Not saying fans would be upset with TWP signing rugby union players, it would probably be a bonus, but if in doing so caused Rugby Ontario or Rugby Canada to take issue, then those organizations have a direct line to influence a lot of potential fans.

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9 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Because a the biggest part of their fan base are rugby union players and fans. You don't make friends or customers by attacking or fighting with something they like. Not saying fans would be upset with TWP signing rugby union players, it would probably be a bonus, but if in doing so caused Rugby Ontario or Rugby Canada to take issue, then those organizations have a direct line to influence a lot of potential fans.

Influence potential fans in a city of 6 million people? Wow! 

Edited by Man of Kent

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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Chicken?

No,,,steak.

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2 hours ago, TheReaper said:

Because a the biggest part of their fan base are rugby union players and fans. You don't make friends or customers by attacking or fighting with something they like. Not saying fans would be upset with TWP signing rugby union players, it would probably be a bonus, but if in doing so caused Rugby Ontario or Rugby Canada to take issue, then those organizations have a direct line to influence a lot of potential fans.

Balls in kids hands...

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6 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

Just one theory, could be wrong....

Not really a theory is it? The signing of SBW’s backs your theory up.

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3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Influence potential fans in a city of 6 million people? Wow! 

Who have lots of other sports - and other things in general - to occupy them. Publicly squabbling with the local RU lads would accomplish little. And both groups have the same objective - getting rugby balls in the hands of kids more used to playing with baseballs and basketballs and soccer balls and footballs and hockey sticks and lacrosse sticks and tennis rackets and golf clubs... when they aren't out running and swimming and bicycling. Or increasingly just sitting at home in front of a video screen 'playing' at being an athlete.

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I have only been to Lamport once (it’s a 5 hour flight from Vancouver and for the same $ I can fly to Mexico, Hawaii or Iceland), but when I was there I did see a lot of RU shirts in the crowd, so I could easily see that a high proportion of the fan base is either

a. Union fans

b. General rugby fans who like both codes

So from day 1 I suspect that as Argyle wants to build a fan base he does not want to do anything to antagonize the other code, plus the RU propaganda machine would probably be able to paint a very negative picture of the Wolfpack which in turn would probably scare off most of the rugby newbies. Maybe Argyle has done his research and decided that it’s a battle he can’t win, and would get little support from the RFL. Again this is just an assumption but maybe this is why him and Perez parted ways as Eric seems like the kind of guy who would be up for a fight, plus Perez can try to attract local players to Ottawa, where there is no MLR team (yet) to go head to head against.

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1 hour ago, Oldbear said:

I have only been to Lamport once (it’s a 5 hour flight from Vancouver and for the same $ I can fly to Mexico, Hawaii or Iceland), but when I was there I did see a lot of RU shirts in the crowd, so I could easily see that a high proportion of the fan base is either

a. Union fans

b. General rugby fans who like both codes

So from day 1 I suspect that as Argyle wants to build a fan base he does not want to do anything to antagonize the other code, plus the RU propaganda machine would probably be able to paint a very negative picture of the Wolfpack which in turn would probably scare off most of the rugby newbies. Maybe Argyle has done his research and decided that it’s a battle he can’t win, and would get little support from the RFL. Again this is just an assumption but maybe this is why him and Perez parted ways as Eric seems like the kind of guy who would be up for a fight, plus Perez can try to attract local players to Ottawa, where there is no MLR team (yet) to go head to head against.

And of course it's not Perez's money.

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3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I have only been to Lamport once (it’s a 5 hour flight from Vancouver and for the same $ I can fly to Mexico, Hawaii or Iceland), but when I was there I did see a lot of RU shirts in the crowd, so I could easily see that a high proportion of the fan base is either

a. Union fans

b. General rugby fans who like both codes

So from day 1 I suspect that as Argyle wants to build a fan base he does not want to do anything to antagonize the other code, plus the RU propaganda machine would probably be able to paint a very negative picture of the Wolfpack which in turn would probably scare off most of the rugby newbies. Maybe Argyle has done his research and decided that it’s a battle he can’t win, and would get little support from the RFL. Again this is just an assumption but maybe this is why him and Perez parted ways as Eric seems like the kind of guy who would be up for a fight, plus Perez can try to attract local players to Ottawa, where there is no MLR team (yet) to go head to head against.

So Toronto can never even attempt to engage with the domestic rugby union playing community - even though it’s apparently a large part of their fanbase - in case it upsets them (even though it might be mutually beneficial for both codes to work together to attract more young people to rugby than, say, gridiron/soccer/hockey or whatever)?

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49 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

So Toronto can never even attempt to engage with the domestic rugby union playing community - even though it’s apparently a large part of their fanbase - in case it upsets them (even though it might be mutually beneficial for both codes to work together to attract more young people to rugby than, say, gridiron/soccer/hockey or whatever)?

Nice straw-man, no one has said they shouldn't or don`t "Engage" with them, just not antagonise them.

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23 minutes ago, dkw said:

Nice straw-man, no one has said they shouldn't or don`t "Engage" with them, just not antagonise them.

Whatever. To be honest it just sounds like the usual excuse-making by the sort of fan who thinks their s**t doesn’t smell.

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I have seen a lot of criticism from on here that Toronto are engaging too much with the RU community and blurring the lines between RU and Rugby League. I remember a lot of criticism when they sponsored a RU event and taught generic rugby in things like festivals and the whole putting Rugby balls in children's hand slogan with Argyle not particularly minding the code. Now they are being criticised for not engaging with RU. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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