The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[ATLANTISMAN 417]

15 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

It is interesting to note that many of the same things that are being said about David Argyle now were also said about Leighton Samuel after the collapse of Celtic Crusaders in South Wales in 2009.

Perhaps if the sport is serious about top level expansion in the Northern hemisphere it needs to take control of the project itself including giving it a fair share of the tv revenue, but I cannot see that happening myself.

Leighton Samuel business nearly collapsed as his major customer (Woolworths) went under .

I agree some expansion should come under the RFL/SL to oversee things in agreement with member clubs.

 

P 

[Whippet13 924]

40 minutes ago, westlondonfan said:

It is interesting to note that many of the same things that are being said about David Argyle now were also said about Leighton Samuel after the collapse of Celtic Crusaders in South Wales in 2009.

Perhaps if the sport is serious about top level expansion in the Northern hemisphere it needs to take control of the project itself including giving it a fair share of the tv revenue, but I cannot see that happening myself.

Perhaps not control of the Project as we don't have the funds for that and it will deter investors, but instead of simply letting the new club loose to fend for itself the RFL could insist on a Project oversight processes and provide actual ongoing advice & support for X years. There are many ways to do this that cost virtually nothing, but from what I can see it doesn't happen. 

[Robin Evans 3,714]

Just now, Whippet13 said:

Perhaps not control of the Project as we don't have the funds for that and it will deter investors, but instead of simply letting the new club loose to fend for itself the RFL could insist on a Project oversight processes and provide actual ongoing advice & support for X years. There are many ways to do this that cost virtually nothing, but from what I can see it doesn't happen. 

Has the RFL got the qualified personnel to do this?

I'm not saying these issues can't be addressed, but to support and assist with ongoing governance, it would need a team with a better skill set for that project than what is currently available at the RFL 

[Harry Stottle 3,402]

On 11/08/2020 at 03:22, Chamey said:

The Arrows must be delighted, Lamport now available, TWP mailing list probably cheap to acquire, and a less crowded marketplace.

All those locals who went to Lamport for TWP games to stand and socialise around the Beer tents will still turn up at the Arrows games, but those who attended primarily to watch the Rugby will most likely and naturally be comparing the two games, being so of those 'bitten' by League and would consider themselves aficionados of the game of rugby I doubt they will be as enthusiastic of the Union version,  Lamport will not enjoy the attendences they did previously for TWP.

[Les Tonks Sidestep 2,355]

10 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Has the RFL got the qualified personnel to do this?

I'm not saying these issues can't be addressed, but to support and assist with ongoing governance, it would need a team with a better skill set for that project than what is currently available at the RFL 

You don't need to be that qualified to warn of the dangers in employing Nobby and Vickers....

[Robin Evans 3,714]

Just now, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

You don't need to be that qualified to warn of the dangers in employing Nobby and Vickers....

True. Very true.

[RugbyFan99 22]

Haven't posted before and am a soft southerner with an RU background so please be gentle! I watch and support both codes and look at it in a completely different way from Jampot so I'll try to summarize:

RL is a great sport but let down by various groups within it

1. really poor administrators and strategists

2. the sky commentators have for many years done the sport a disservice - you only have to compare with the NRL to see how amateurish they are and not likely to bring in many new fans outside the heartlands

3. because of the managed decline of the sport, it has left itself open to chancers - I don't blame Argyll for the mess [I do blame him for walking away] but the constant thread through this is Perez. Does he actually have any real experience/cash or is he just a golden tongued charmer, selling a dream of riches to various gullible folks? I suspect, when the book is written on this debacle, it will be Perez who looms large. And he is still doing it - a transatlantic club in League 1/Championship with potentially no central funding - if you thought Toronto was expensive, relative to income..........

There is hope though - let's just put expansion on the back burner for a while and deal with what we have

* the new laws have made the game so much better to watch - RU has a lot of catching up to do

* the proliferation of new sports channels mean they are all light on content, particularly live content

* the NRL has shown what can be done with far sighted administrators and supportive media partners

Sorry for taking up so much space - hopefully today's news on the positive tests doesn't ruin the rest of the season

Edited August 12 by RugbyFan99

[John WP Fan 747]

45 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All those locals who went to Lamport for TWP games to stand and socialise around the Beer tents will still turn up at the Arrows games, but those who attended primarily to watch the Rugby will most likely and naturally be comparing the two games, being so of those 'bitten' by League and would consider themselves aficionados of the game of rugby I doubt they will be as enthusiastic of the Union version,  Lamport will not enjoy the attendences they did previously for TWP.

I agree. My rugby exposure started with union in school (I was a hooker), and I only learned about the existence of RL while travelling in Australia in 2014. Now I find League by far the better game. I have watched parts of a few Arrows games on TV, but I get bored watching the ruck push their way over the goal line. Good luck to the Arrows, but if the Wolfpack can't be rescued, I won't be going to Arrows games.

 

[Harry Stottle 3,402]

7 minutes ago, John WP Fan said:

I agree. My rugby exposure started with union in school (I was a hooker), and I only learned about the existence of RL while travelling in Australia in 2014. Now I find League by far the better game. I have watched parts of a few Arrows games on TV, but I get bored watching the ruck push their way over the goal line. Good luck to the Arrows, but if the Wolfpack can't be rescued, I won't be going to Arrows games.

 

Do you as I think that will be the attitude of many Torontonians? Sorry if that is the wrong collective description.

[tuutaisrambo 622]

Perez should use his skills to find backing for a Canadian version of the game.......... looks like the interest is there.

Fans in NA are less traditional and want to go to special events.

Maybe several 9s competitions in the off season for the NRL and SL so they can send sides over to Canada would be a good start.....with a domestic side from each hosting city.

You could get the amateur game growing and greater interest in SL and the NRL from there.

I just don't see a team/franchise so far away from the rest of the English super league working.......especially now with COVID global travel could change permanently.

NFL don't have a side outside NA and they are worth billions.

[TheReaper 1,184]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

All those locals who went to Lamport for TWP games to stand and socialise around the Beer tents will still turn up at the Arrows games, but those who attended primarily to watch the Rugby will most likely and naturally be comparing the two games, being so of those 'bitten' by League and would consider themselves aficionados of the game of rugby I doubt they will be as enthusiastic of the Union version,  Lamport will not enjoy the attendences they did previously for TWP.

That's not exactly a hard prediction to make, given the gap between the two last year.

 

I do think Arrows numbers will be solidly up. I think they would have been anyway - they're a strong team in a growing league.

Will that number be higher than it would have been if everything was fine with TWP? Maybe, but we'll never know or be able to tell. Sharing a stadium means there was almost never a conflict of attending one vs the other. 

But I think there will be a fair number that hadn't been going to Arrows games, that will do so now. For the exact same reason that thousands of union fans showed up to watch TWP at the start of their venture.

Any rugby is better than no rugby.

[CanadianRugger 1,493]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

They’re under contract to TWP, not him. 

Ding Ding Ding!  

David Argyle doesn't want to commit anymore money to TWP.  That is his choice, it's his money.  

With no other income coming in, there is no money to pay the players. 

David Argyle may get some bad publicity from this but contractually, I doubt the players have any sort of case against him.

[Harry Stottle 3,402]

6 hours ago, TheReaper said:

But I think there will be a fair number that hadn't been going to Arrows games, that will do so now. For the exact same reason that thousands of union fans showed up to watch TWP at the start of their venture.

Over here and I dare say in Australia but I could be wrong, I think you will find that more people who have grown up with union can make the transition to watching and supporting League, but very few the other way around. 

To some 

NO RUGBY IS BETTER THAN UNION 

Edited August 12 by Harry Stottle

[Robin Evans 3,714]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Ding Ding Ding!  

David Argyle doesn't want to commit anymore money to TWP.  That is his choice, it's his money.  

With no other income coming in, there is no money to pay the players. 

David Argyle may get some bad publicity from this but contractually, I doubt the players have any sort of case against him.

Legally quite probably correct. Morally repugnant in leaving the employees up sh it creek as he has.

And why i believe the caution presented by Elston and sl was correct. Argyle is a bit of a sh ithouse.

Further acceptance of that club now seems unlikely given Argyle's involvement and lessons learned from this whole shabby experience.

Toronto fans get shat upon. Employees get shat upon. Classy.

[Harry Stottle 3,402]

2 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

Ding Ding Ding!  

David Argyle doesn't want to commit anymore money to TWP.  That is his choice, it's his money.  

With no other income coming in, there is no money to pay the players. 

David Argyle may get some bad publicity from this but contractually, I doubt the players have any sort of case against him.

Yep you are correct he will get bad publicity from this, probably enough not to be involved with the British game ever again, but hey he had a go rolled the dice and up came the 'snake eye's', after losing enough he has put his wallet in his pocket and gone home to sleep it off.

[CanadianRugger 1,493]

1 minute ago, Robin Evans said:

Legally quite probably correct. Morally repugnant in leaving the employees up sh it creek as he has.

And why i believe the caution presented by Elston and sl was correct. Argyle is a bit of a sh ithouse.

Further acceptance of that club now seems unlikely given Argyle's involvement and lessons learned from this whole shabby experience.

Toronto fans get shat upon. Employees get shat upon. Classy.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-group-behind-new-york-rugby-league-bid-pulls-out-of-wolfpack/?fbclid=IwAR0t6rLuJcOGTqAxvIntE5BnNx_Iwo_dF4EefSzMNZ7zjy6ue97oJ3uV6L4

Don't know if that article is paywalled but I don't know if David Argyle is the only "villain" here.  We've known he was one of many shareholders but there were others and they seem to be causing issues.

[TheReaper 1,184]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugger said:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-group-behind-new-york-rugby-league-bid-pulls-out-of-wolfpack/?fbclid=IwAR0t6rLuJcOGTqAxvIntE5BnNx_Iwo_dF4EefSzMNZ7zjy6ue97oJ3uV6L4

Don't know if that article is paywalled but I don't know if David Argyle is the only "villain" here.  We've known he was one of many shareholders but there were others and they seem to be causing issues.

Paywall for me CR.

[fighting irish 1,224]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Over here and I dare say in Australia but I could be wrong, I think you will find that more people who have grown up with union can name the transition to watchingcabd supporting League, but very few the other way around. 

To some 

NO RUGBY IS BETTER THAN UNION 

Well said 'Arry!

[fighting irish 1,224]

5 minutes ago, CanadianRugger said:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-group-behind-new-york-rugby-league-bid-pulls-out-of-wolfpack/?fbclid=IwAR0t6rLuJcOGTqAxvIntE5BnNx_Iwo_dF4EefSzMNZ7zjy6ue97oJ3uV6L4

Don't know if that article is paywalled but I don't know if David Argyle is the only "villain" here.  We've known he was one of many shareholders but there were others and they seem to be causing issues.

Can you summarise it for us CR?

 

[TheLegendOfTexEvans 2,398]

24 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Legally quite probably correct. Morally repugnant in leaving the employees up sh it creek as he has.

And why i believe the caution presented by Elston and sl was correct. Argyle is a bit of a sh ithouse.

Further acceptance of that club now seems unlikely given Argyle's involvement and lessons learned from this whole shabby experience.

Toronto fans get shat upon. Employees get shat upon. Classy.

Not a surprise people who become incredibly rich don't follow the same rules the rest of society follows.

You get what you get with people like that, and that was always the danger.

Money has its own set of ethics and morals. 

If you bound up by your own empathy for individuals i suspect your not going to be billionaire.

Saying that I have friends who have done well and not changed, but maybe that's difference between millions and billions.

[gingerjon 13,271]

59 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Toronto fans get shat upon. Employees get shat upon.

Bootlickers lick the boot of the money man and pretend that this is fine because life is hard and no one, least of all the professional sportspeople they watch, should be paid a fair wage for what they do.

[TheReaper 1,184]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Over here and I dare say in Australia but I could be wrong, I think you will find that more people who have grown up with union can name the transition to watchingcabd supporting League, but very few the other way around. 

To some 

NO RUGBY IS BETTER THAN UNION 

To some, sure.

But out of say 10000 regular  Wolfpack fans (the specific numbers aren't terribly critical to making my point):

If we suppose, as many do, that roughly half of them are "here for the beer" i.e. a social outdoor event with friends at a convenient location, or just your casual sports fan who will watch anything - will a slight change of code on the field matter that much? If they can continue their habit of spending sunny afternoons at Lamport, would they stop? How many would care that much, 500 out of a supposed 5000?

Say a quarter of our 10k were existing union fans, players/former players/their friends + families in the Ontario amateur scene, expats, etc. This is probably the "overlap" crowd, i.e. the 2500 strong "base" supporting potentially both the Arrows and the Wolfpack. How many of those do you think would prefer league so strongly that they would not go / no longer go to the Arrows one TWP is no longer an optio.? Obviously a few as commented above, but I'd say less than 10%, call it 5%. Then again, not really an area of growth for the Arrows since they already have most of these people.

And our last quarter is the true opportunity lost for rugby league, is the sports fan who, previously unexposed to any form of rugby, saw the Wolfpack as their first introduction to rugby and fell in love with rugby league. These are the people who will have RL as their benchmark when watching RU, and may find that they don't like the different pace of play or the often unclear breakdown. This is the largest chunk of people who may not bother with switching then, but I'd suggest that if they were open minded enough to adopt a new "foreign" sport when a new team came around, and they really enjoyed their experience, then they may be open minded to following a similar (if not quite as appealing to them) version of the sport, at the same location with a similar game day experience. I'd say that at least 1/3 to 1/2 would be open to that switch. The team is only 4 years old, most people won't be THAT diehard.

So I'd put it at 500 + 125 + 1675 = 2300 who would find RU so unappealing as to turn them off of the rest of the Lamport experience. And I assumed that 2500 were already union/Arrows fans. That still leaves 5,200 possible fans that will be looking for something else that the Arrows can provide. It is a big opportunity for them. They key will be finding a classy way to reach out once TWP is dead (and it isn't yet, let's not forget that!) and say "Hey, if you still want to watch rugby at Lamport, we're here". Maybe a discount to former TWP STHs? 

 

 

The crux of everything I've said is that there is far, far, more to a successful sports team than the specific version of chase-a-ball-around-a-field. Marketing, game day experience, fan culture, community outreach, visibility, all play very large parts. In fact, in Toronto, the biggest hurdle by far is not the code, or even the location. It's being perceived as "major league", i.e. big enough to be taken seriously. In sports especially, Toronto loves to be among the best, to the point of excluding the rest of Canada.

Soccer tried and failed many times, and was seen as the game for girls/sissies/European immigrants. But when big-time, big money MLSE (Maple Leafs, Raptors, Toronto Rock Lacrosse, minor league hockey) bought into the "major league", big American MLS, it became one of the most successful franchises in that league. Proving the sport didn't matter so much as the big league credibility and right kind of marketing.

Toronto continually looks down on and fails to support the Argos while the NFL increases in popularity - The Argos play at the same field as TFC, so it's not location, it Toronto's desire for the big-time, and turning it's nose up at anything "second rate". Instead of enjoying our game for it's different rules and field and history (much of Canadian football's history came about from various Toronto clubs and U of T), because the American's do it different that must be the better way. They're to big and too important to play against Saskatchewan and Hamilton, they want to compete with New York and Boston. 

In fact, despite it's reputation as a hockey town, Toronto is actually notoriously bad at supporting junior hockey. That's something that small towns do, not Toronto. Their AHL farm team (senior men) the Marlies get ~6k attendance (13th out of 31 teams in the league), largely because the NHL is so expensive that many families can not attend, so instead go the affordable option with a few rising or rehabbing stars. That attendance number is beaten by 2 or 3 OHL junior teams every year, in cities a fraction the size of TO. Several OHL or previous junior leagues had Toronto teams drop out or move.

So a big part of TWP's attraction was the double whammy of playing in England (instant credibility - we play with the best on the American leagues in American sports, now we play with the best in England in an English sport) AND the big-money,big-time professional appearance of having a very rich owner like David Argyle. Spare no expense, millions upon millions of dollars operations is the expectation for a sports team, not nickel-and-diming over sandwiches and coach bus costs. And while they didn't go straight into Super League, the path was clear, and by having or at least attempting to have a Super League calibre team from the get-go provided that perception that they would be in the the big league very shortly. "Build slowly" as the mantra on here would not work with that. They could overcome the perception being in a "minor league" with teams getting attendance in the 100's, with the combination of playing in England and being  a multi-million dollar operation, but only for a short time. Fake it till you make it.

 

The "big league" perception is a WAY bigger challenge for the Arrows than any quibbles over what oval-ball rules they play by. Right now MLR exists somewhere in the Major League Lacrosse, Arena Football, WNBA, USL soccer, minor league baseball realm. All of these teams can have decent fan bases, make a bit of money, have some games on a secondary sport channel etc. But they never have their scores on the TSN or ESPN ticker, they don't get included in the results-roundup on sports radio, and might get a once a year highlight on TV with a miracle play or a championship win. The MLR is following the MLS's approach so closely because MLS is the only league that has managed to make that step to "major" league status.

 

So petty English code rivalries are the least of anyone's worries here.

 

 

[Big Picture 1,625]

56 minutes ago, TheReaper said:

To some, sure.

But out of say 10000 regular  Wolfpack fans (the specific numbers aren't terribly critical to making my point):

If we suppose, as many do, that roughly half of them are "here for the beer" i.e. a social outdoor event with friends at a convenient location, or just your casual sports fan who will watch anything - will a slight change of code on the field matter that much? If they can continue their habit of spending sunny afternoons at Lamport, would they stop? How many would care that much, 500 out of a supposed 5000?

Say a quarter of our 10k were existing union fans, players/former players/their friends + families in the Ontario amateur scene, expats, etc. This is probably the "overlap" crowd, i.e. the 2500 strong "base" supporting potentially both the Arrows and the Wolfpack. How many of those do you think would prefer league so strongly that they would not go / no longer go to the Arrows one TWP is no longer an optio.? Obviously a few as commented above, but I'd say less than 10%, call it 5%. Then again, not really an area of growth for the Arrows since they already have most of these people.

And our last quarter is the true opportunity lost for rugby league, is the sports fan who, previously unexposed to any form of rugby, saw the Wolfpack as their first introduction to rugby and fell in love with rugby league. These are the people who will have RL as their benchmark when watching RU, and may find that they don't like the different pace of play or the often unclear breakdown. This is the largest chunk of people who may not bother with switching then, but I'd suggest that if they were open minded enough to adopt a new "foreign" sport when a new team came around, and they really enjoyed their experience, then they may be open minded to following a similar (if not quite as appealing to them) version of the sport, at the same location with a similar game day experience. I'd say that at least 1/3 to 1/2 would be open to that switch. The team is only 4 years old, most people won't be THAT diehard.

So I'd put it at 500 + 125 + 1675 = 2300 who would find RU so unappealing as to turn them off of the rest of the Lamport experience. And I assumed that 2500 were already union/Arrows fans. That still leaves 5,200 possible fans that will be looking for something else that the Arrows can provide. It is a big opportunity for them. They key will be finding a classy way to reach out once TWP is dead (and it isn't yet, let's not forget that!) and say "Hey, if you still want to watch rugby at Lamport, we're here". Maybe a discount to former TWP STHs? 

The crux of everything I've said is that there is far, far, more to a successful sports team than the specific version of chase-a-ball-around-a-field. Marketing, game day experience, fan culture, community outreach, visibility, all play very large parts. In fact, in Toronto, the biggest hurdle by far is not the code, or even the location. It's being perceived as "major league", i.e. big enough to be taken seriously. In sports especially, Toronto loves to be among the best, to the point of excluding the rest of Canada.

Soccer tried and failed many times, and was seen as the game for girls/sissies/European immigrants. But when big-time, big money MLSE (Maple Leafs, Raptors, Toronto Rock Lacrosse, minor league hockey) bought into the "major league", big American MLS, it became one of the most successful franchises in that league. Proving the sport didn't matter so much as the big league credibility and right kind of marketing.

Toronto continually looks down on and fails to support the Argos while the NFL increases in popularity - The Argos play at the same field as TFC, so it's not location, it Toronto's desire for the big-time, and turning it's nose up at anything "second rate". Instead of enjoying our game for it's different rules and field and history (much of Canadian football's history came about from various Toronto clubs and U of T), because the American's do it different that must be the better way. They're to big and too important to play against Saskatchewan and Hamilton, they want to compete with New York and Boston. 

In fact, despite it's reputation as a hockey town, Toronto is actually notoriously bad at supporting junior hockey. That's something that small towns do, not Toronto. Their AHL farm team (senior men) the Marlies get ~6k attendance (13th out of 31 teams in the league), largely because the NHL is so expensive that many families can not attend, so instead go the affordable option with a few rising or rehabbing stars. That attendance number is beaten by 2 or 3 OHL junior teams every year, in cities a fraction the size of TO. Several OHL or previous junior leagues had Toronto teams drop out or move.

So a big part of TWP's attraction was the double whammy of playing in England (instant credibility - we play with the best on the American leagues in American sports, now we play with the best in England in an English sport) AND the big-money,big-time professional appearance of having a very rich owner like David Argyle. Spare no expense, millions upon millions of dollars operations is the expectation for a sports team, not nickel-and-diming over sandwiches and coach bus costs. And while they didn't go straight into Super League, the path was clear, and by having or at least attempting to have a Super League calibre team from the get-go provided that perception that they would be in the the big league very shortly. "Build slowly" as the mantra on here would not work with that. They could overcome the perception being in a "minor league" with teams getting attendance in the 100's, with the combination of playing in England and being  a multi-million dollar operation, but only for a short time. Fake it till you make it.

The "big league" perception is a WAY bigger challenge for the Arrows than any quibbles over what oval-ball rules they play by. Right now MLR exists somewhere in the Major League Lacrosse, Arena Football, WNBA, USL soccer, minor league baseball realm. All of these teams can have decent fan bases, make a bit of money, have some games on a secondary sport channel etc. But they never have their scores on the TSN or ESPN ticker, they don't get included in the results-roundup on sports radio, and might get a once a year highlight on TV with a miracle play or a championship win. The MLR is following the MLS's approach so closely because MLS is the only league that has managed to make that step to "major" league status.

So petty English code rivalries are the least of anyone's worries here.

Very well said there.  What RL needs to overcome it's problems and the other obstacles to its growth in the UK and elsewhere is precisely what you described there re Toronto, in 10 or 12 cities in a spread of 5 or 6 countries all at once via a brand new league set up on that basis.

[Oxford 4,285]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

To some 

NO RUGBY IS BETTER THAN UNION 

[Oldbear 428]

2 hours ago, TheLegendOfTexEvans said:

Not a surprise people who become incredibly rich don't follow the same rules the rest of society follows.

You get what you get with people like that, and that was always the danger.

Money has its own set of ethics and morals. 

If you bound up by your own empathy for individuals i suspect your not going to be billionaire.

Saying that I have friends who have done well and not changed, but maybe that's difference between millions and billions.

The man who owns the company I work for is a multi millionaire. To him people are commodities, he cares little for his employees, in fact his mantra is very much “what can I get away with?”. That I’m afraid is reality when dealing with very rich individuals, they don’t play the same moral game as you or I so in fact we shouldn’t be surprised when this kind of thing happens. As I said in an earlier post, the problem is that when the RFL is approached by a very wealthy individual, they roll over like a puppy dog, all sense of logic goes out of the window. Mr Argyle has invested a huge amount of money in RL, playing the rich fan, now times are tougher, thanks to the pandemic, so he is doing what rich people do, protecting himself. I really feel for the players and in future perhaps the RFL should insist that some sort of bond is lodged with them, purely for the purpose of flying overseas players home and paying suppliers, no bond then you can’t join the club.