The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[GUBRATS]

58 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Indeed. And if you think the answer should be no, it doesn't automatically make you some sort of fervent traditionalist or Leigh fan.

Pidgeonholer

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The black and white of this is that Canada and Toronto was and still is not an area of expansion for SL or the UK comps. The reason there is no SL strategy for expansion into Canada is that quite frankly it isn't a good idea. It isn't a good idea to spend SL's limited financial resources, it isn't a good idea to increase the cost base of the existing teams, and any tangible benefits won't be realised for a long time, that is acknowledged by the likes of Perez.

This is one of those 'opportunities' that on paper isn't a good idea for investment, but is a bit of an opportunity whereby somebody rich will pay for a team. But let's be clear here, that is all Argyle has done - he hasn't done any groundwork for the sport of RL in Canada - if TWP go bust at the end of this month, there is a good chance that there will be literally nothing left to come out of it. He hasn't done anything for the 'game' there, he has funded a plaything.

But, your point is right, that however this has come about, an opportunity is here - we need to decide do we want to give it a go. If the answer is yes, we need a strategy, if the answer is no (a perfectly reasonable answer) then we need to be more ruthless and stop wasting everyone's time.

The answer to this N.A expansion does not have to be yes. 

People should ask themselves, if five years ago they were given a pot of £20m to use on expansion areas, would they have gone and spent it in Toronto. The answer would be no. And the answer for that is that it's not a good use of money. But we are where we are, and I suggest SLE makes a clear decision either way and cracks on with it. 

I didn't realise you were ' Parky ' in disguise ?

[Dave T]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

I didn't realise you were ' Parky ' in disguise ?

Reported for being offensive!!! 

My approach is still laced with optimism. I'm perfectly OK with us embracing it and going big, or equally deciding we are not interested and remaining focused on our core objectives. 

And I still hope TWP survives and believe they can add value, but I believe in having a bit of measured realism in there. 

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Reported for being offensive!!! 

My approach is still laced with optimism. I'm perfectly OK with us embracing it and going big, or equally deciding we are not interested and remaining focused on our core objectives. 

And I still hope TWP survives and believe they can add value, but I believe in having a bit of measured realism in there. 

Completely agree , I don't want to see any club go under or any fans , no matter how committed or not losing their team , but we are at a crossroads with Toronto 

We either support them fully as equal members with all that entails , or we don't , and most likely see them gone 

[Oldbear]

14 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Indeed. And if you think the answer should be no, it doesn't automatically make you some sort of fervent traditionalist or Leigh fan.

Totally agree, I’m a huge supporter of expansion, and I live in Canada, but honestly if I was in charge of expansion for the RFL and I were given $30 million to spend on expansion, North America would not be my first choice. 

[Oldbear]

Also I don’t want to put any dampener on any optimism about TWP surviving but there is still one huge elephant in the room, Covid. Here in BC our health minister indicated the other day that he expects our state of emergency to last through 2021, meaning no fans at sporting venues and a continuation of the international travel ban. Now if that turns out to be the case throughout Canada, doesn’t a lot of the problems regarding TWP having no home gate revenue and having to spend $ on hiring overseas stadia still apply, in which case I see no way back.

[GUBRATS]

3 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Also I don’t want to put any dampener on any optimism about TWP surviving but there is still one huge elephant in the room, Covid. Here in BC our health minister indicated the other day that he expects our state of emergency to last through 2021, meaning no fans at sporting venues and a continuation of the international travel ban. Now if that turns out to be the case throughout Canada, doesn’t a lot of the problems regarding TWP having no home gate revenue and having to spend $ on hiring overseas stadia still apply, in which case I see no way back.

Correct

[redjonn]

4 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Totally agree, I’m a huge supporter of expansion, and I live in Canada, but honestly if I was in charge of expansion for the RFL and I were given $30 million to spend on expansion, North America would not be my first choice. 

Its a no-brainer - it doesn't make any strategical sense for the RFL/SL to expand a Anglo/French league with a club or clubs in N.A, given the amount of monies to spend on expansion RL has.

We have a real model in NFL and that's taken many years of marketing/promotion to get to a point of having oversea's games of N.A teams in London - as the "epicentre" for Europe.. This to expand its commercial reach.   Now one day we may end up with a NFL franchise in London but look at the ground work and monies to get to that situation.

Any investment funds RFL have for expansion should be concentrated in Uk/France. For myself it would be France given its underlying higher potential than any other country outside UK.

Monies spent on N.A expansion or club denies investment in France or additional French club's. 

 

[Davo5]

15 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Its a no-brainer - it doesn't make any strategical sense for the RFL/SL to expand a Anglo/French league with a club or clubs in N.A, given the amount of monies to spend on expansion RL has.

We have a real model in NFL and that's taken many years of marketing/promotion to get to a point of having oversea's games of N.A teams in London - as the "epicentre" for Europe.. This to expand its commercial reach.   Now one day we may end up with a NFL franchise in London but look at the ground work and monies to get to that situation.

Any investment funds RFL have for expansion should be concentrated in Uk/France. For myself it would be France given its underlying higher potential than any other country outside UK.

Monies spent on N.A expansion or club denies investment in France or additional French club's. 

 

What monies has the RFL/SLE spent on North American expansion exactly

[ATLANTISMAN]

19 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

What monies has the RFL/SLE spent on North American expansion exactly

And the answer is 

ZERO:) LOL

P 

[Tommygilf]

36 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Its a no-brainer - it doesn't make any strategical sense for the RFL/SL to expand a Anglo/French league with a club or clubs in N.A, given the amount of monies to spend on expansion RL has.

We have a real model in NFL and that's taken many years of marketing/promotion to get to a point of having oversea's games of N.A teams in London - as the "epicentre" for Europe.. This to expand its commercial reach.   Now one day we may end up with a NFL franchise in London but look at the ground work and monies to get to that situation.

Any investment funds RFL have for expansion should be concentrated in Uk/France. For myself it would be France given its underlying higher potential than any other country outside UK.

Monies spent on N.A expansion or club denies investment in France or additional French club's. 

 

Tbf though you've got to look at scale.

For a successful NFL franchise they're looking at hundreds of millions of dollars plus selling out a 60 to 90k stadium.

In RL terms Toronto were averaging higher than all but the very biggest English clubs in only their third year of existence on 9k. 

[Dave T]

54 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

What monies has the RFL/SLE spent on North American expansion exactly

Zero, and people slate them for it. People are saying it is a no-brained that TWP should get £1.8m per year and SL clubs should fund the expenses of travel. 

So if we did these things the answer to your question would be c£10 to 12m over 5 years. 

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Correct

You can't always get what you want but if you try real hard you will probably get what you need in the end....NA expansion is where the game is at right now..

[17 stone giant]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

So if we did these things the answer to your question would be c£10 to 12m over 5 years. 

Which is why, as you've previously talked about, the RFL/SL should only do that if it is part of a carefully thought out strategy for NA expansion. It would be crazy to do it without any long term plans in place, because they might end up losing all that investment for nothing if the new club folded.

[Robin Evans]

2 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

You can't always get what you want but if you try real hard you will probably get what you need in the end....NA expansion is where the game is at right now..

I'm not sure it is. Logistically I suspect the hurdle is too great at this stage. The climate, distance and finances being  huge hurdles.

The toronto public appear to enjoy their rugby. Having bought into the game like they have, we have a moral obligation to explore all possibilities of making it happen.

But just cos we could find a way to do it doesn't mean we should. It has to be right. If leaving well alone is the right decision, that's the right decision

[JohnM]

I think the way that the game as a whole: the RFL and Superleague in perticular should hang their heads in shame for the way that they have treated Toronto.  Absolutely disgraceful and shameful..

[GUBRATS]

12 minutes ago, JohnM said:

I think the way that the game as a whole: the RFL and Superleague in perticular should hang their heads in shame for the way that they have treated Toronto.  Absolutely disgraceful and shameful..

The only issue is the central funding , nothing else 

[Toby Chopra]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

I think the way that the game as a whole: the RFL and Superleague in perticular should hang their heads in shame for the way that they have treated Toronto.  Absolutely disgraceful and shameful..

I've always been a pragmatic supporter of the Wolfpack project as my posts on here show, and I hope a way can be found for them to continue. 

But this is just way OTT. What exactly have SL and RFL done that they should be ashamed of? They've played it exactly right in my book. 

The fact that many league fans lacked the imagination or understanding to get behind the project is neither here nor there. The responsible authorities made the right decisions at the right time. 

The only disgrace in all this is David Argyle. 

[redjonn]

11 hours ago, Dave T said:

Zero, and people slate them for it. People are saying it is a no-brained that TWP should get £1.8m per year and SL clubs should fund the expenses of travel. 

So if we did these things the answer to your question would be c£10 to 12m over 5 years. 

That should be invested in French RL... far better use of any expansion investment monies plus it may help with internationals - that in itself providing an additional return.

As othesr have said don't want to see a collapse of any RL club but it doesn't make sense to me to be providing any central investment into NA nor by doing so preventing growth of another French club into SL plus providing additional support to Elite one.

[redjonn]

11 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

I'm not sure it is. Logistically I suspect the hurdle is too great at this stage. The climate, distance and finances being  huge hurdles.

The toronto public appear to enjoy their rugby. Having bought into the game like they have, we have a moral obligation to explore all possibilities of making it happen.

But just cos we could find a way to do it doesn't mean we should. It has to be right. If leaving well alone is the right decision, that's the right decision

key is that providing any type of support, whether resource or monies in its self prevents the use of that resource or monies into an area better suited - namely French RL or development area's in UK.

[Snowys Backside]

21 hours ago, Kayakman said:

You can't always get what you want but if you try real hard you will probably get what you need in the end....NA expansion is where the game is at right now..

I cant say I agree with this. 

Stability is what the game needs right now. 233 pages on talking about a SL side thousands of miles away and been in existence a mere few years, tells me this isn't the case. 

The RFL and SL have a big decision to make and quick. They are either with you or bin you. I won't elaborate on my opinion but I feel it is doing more harm than good. 

 

 

[The Future is League]

Can Rugby League afford to not let TWP play next season as this is possibly the games only chance to get into the North American sports market which is the most lucrative sports market in the world

[Robin Evans]

If its not feasible, or the impact on the game in the Northern hemisphere being such a negative impact, then it doesn't matter how lucrative the potential is.

The logistics, resources and finances will all need due consideration.

If its not the right tjing to do then we have to let it go.

If it is the right thing, but not feasible, then we have to let it go.

If it is the right thing to do, and it's doable, with the right guarantees finances and personnel in place.... then we go for it.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

Can Rugby League afford to not let TWP play next season as this is possibly the games only chance to get into the North American sports market which is the most lucrative sports market in the world

Aside from Ottawa.

And, if we are wide-eyed enough to believe the generic marketing videos, New York.

[gingerjon]

23 hours ago, Kayakman said:

You can't always get what you want but if you try real hard you will probably get what you need in the end....NA expansion is where the game is at right now..

Not really. It's not a priority for anybody in the game. You can tell this because nobody from outside the clubs involved is putting any money, time or strategic thought into it.

Whereas, to point out a difference, there is money being made available from the RLWC for development projects in 'new' areas in England.