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Thu 17 Jun: SL: St Helens v Warrington Wolves KO 19:45 (TV)


Who will win?  

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  1. 1. Who will win?

    • St Helens
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    • Warrington Wolves
      4

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  • Poll closed on 17/06/21 at 19:15

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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

We have been seeing them everyweek here though Dave,once again we are trying to emulate what is happening down under but the difference is between here and in Aus, when a glimmer of opportunity presents itself to attack they have the players to take advantage with loads of skill and speed.

Hey, you don't need to tell me that, have you read any of my posts about the Steve Price-coached Wire team?

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I really enjoyed that. But I have always felt that tries got in the way of a good game of Rugby League. 

I didn't think it was even worthy of a penalty, both players running back, one had more momentum and held the other one off. Had the Saints player shouldered the Wire player off and scored, would

Surprised we haven't had more apologies from the Saints fans on here, maybe they will be on later.

Don’t want to drift off the topic of the actual game, but what is the answer to the problem that so many of us can see? We all know we don’t enjoy the action quite as much as we used to, but we seem to put it down to RL fans being negative. If we want the sport to have a renaissance (maybe even a survival 😳) we simply must make it attractive to potential new fans.

In the days of the Romans the colosseum was packed to the rafters because of the extravagant battles. I wonder if it would have gone down the same if it was just a borefest of slaves getting lethal injections? (Probably not the nicest analogy but you get my point).

Edited by Cheshire Setter
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37 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Don’t want to drift off the topic of the actual game, but what is the answer to the problem that so many of us can see? We all know we don’t enjoy the action quite as much as we used to, but we seem to put it down to RL fans being negative. If we want the sport to have a renaissance (maybe even a survival 😳) we simply must make it attractive to potential new fans.

In the days of the Romans the colosseum was packed to the rafters because of the extravagant battles. I wonder if it would have gone down the same if it was just a borefest of slaves getting lethal injections? (Probably not the nicest analogy but you get my point).

It's an interesting question but rugby league fans have always moaned. The game always used to be better. When I got into the sport, I was thrilled by it. It was probably the same era that many on here laud over. My grandad used to tell me how that era was rubbish compared to how it used to be. He bemoaned the obsession with quick play the balls and said we had eliminated skill from players. "I'd like to see how these players would have coped with the 5 metre rule" was a common one or "it's like watching kids in a playground running around, they're not proper men anymore".

Defences are far better now too. In the early Super League years, teams losing by 50 or 60 points was commonplace, far more than it is now. Blowouts were a weekly occurence. Even the worse teams in this league now are competent in defence. For fans like Saints fans, there is a reluctance to accept (in my view) that teams won't just let us through. We now have to work harder for it because the ruck is generally slower and defenses more organised. Whereas we (Saints) used to frequently beat teams like Wakefield at home by 50 points plus, now the winning margin is far less. Fans of bigger clubs find that hard to accept. There is a sense of entitlement in that respect.

Now, if you have an off day in defence and find yourself two or three scores down, that is hard to recover from. 20 years ago, it was far easier to overturn such a deficit. In some ways, that made games more entertaining and competitive. In others, tries were cheap and too easy to come by. 

It is unquestionable that the game has changed. That greater focus on defence and wrestling is a major cause. But teams are paid to win matches and must do that even at the expense of style, or if you're the coach, you'll find yourself out of work.

Tony Smith is currently bucking the trend and being rewarded for it. That is good. The more variety in styles we see the better. At present, all teams seem to have a blueprint that they are reluctant to vary from, and that can make things a bit repetitive or stale. Risk taking is discouraged because of greater defensive solidity. The balance of risk and reward for more adventurous play has fundamentally changed.

And then you've got constant rule changes that help no-one and artificially try to alter how the game is played, which almost always fail or have adverse consequences. The new ball steal rule for one which has had the unintended consequence of nearly eliminating offloads as players need to carry the ball in two hands to prevent an attempted ball steal. I could go on and on about the laws of the game, but that's probably a debate for another day.

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23 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Don’t want to drift off the topic of the actual game, but what is the answer to the problem that so many of us can see? We all know we don’t enjoy the action quite as much as we used to, but we seem to put it down to RL fans being negative. If we want the sport to have a renaissance (maybe even a survival 😳) we simply must make it attractive to potential new fans.

In the days of the Romans the colosseum was packed to the rafters because of the extravagant battles. I wonder if it would have gone down the same if it was just a borefest of slaves getting lethal injections? (Probably not the nicest analogy but you get my point).

There's probably a few quick wins that would start to make these changes;

As said previously, make the coaches count on the quota. Clubs would then think carefully about their next appointment instead of automatically going for the NRL option.

A few changes & tweaks to the rules to try and encourage more open play, such as getting rid of the ball steal rule (which thankfully they're doing for 2022). As much as it pains me to say it as it hurt Saints many a time, players like Lauititi were a joy to watch with their offloading. 

Have the officials change the way they enforce the tackle & PTB to try and cut out so much of the wrestle and slowing down of the PTB. If you look back to the start of SL there's a massively noticeable difference in how quickly players get off the tackler and the PTB happens so much quicker. This wrestling & turning players onto their backs long after contact is made is just killing the quick PTB and the opportunity for teams to attack a retreating defence, instead we just see them barging into a strong set defensive line. As soon as a players momentum is stopped the ref should call held and the defenders should instantly release and roll away. If they don't then forget about this 6 again rubbish, just constantly penalise them.

As a viewing spectacle sadly the game has gone backwards from where it was at the start of the SL era.

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33 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Don’t want to drift off the topic of the actual game, but what is the answer to the problem that so many of us can see? We all know we don’t enjoy the action quite as much as we used to, but we seem to put it down to RL fans being negative. If we want the sport to have a renaissance (maybe even a survival 😳) we simply must make it attractive to potential new fans.

In the days of the Romans the colosseum was packed to the rafters because of the extravagant battles. I wonder if it would have gone down the same if it was just a borefest of slaves getting lethal injections? (Probably not the nicest analogy but you get my point).

I love that analogy 😂
Some of the games have been really full this year sadly. I think this is a fair question and we should be able to ask it without just being accused of negativity.

We also need to watch the play acting and feigning injury. It’s always been there and most sides are guilty of it but it is getting far worse. 
Although I am Rugby League through and through, I was brought up in a football dominated area and was always able to hold my head high at how the majority of the players in my sport conducted themselves. I got turned off from football for 2 reasons, the ridiculous money and the soft play acting. Sadly, I don’t see money becoming a RL problem but the RFL and Super League need to clamp down on the play acting.

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4 hours ago, Dave T said:

I do think we need to be careful in this country with the Aussie influence. Too many clubs are going down the defensive percentages route, and it will turn fans off. 

I enjoyed last night's game as it was a great battle between two of the best teams, but I dont want to see those tactics every week. 

I agree with you, Dave.  The other thought I had was that it was very much a game for the existing fan, who would understand the nuances of defensive play and appreciate them.  However, I would not have wanted someone I was introducing to rugby league to see that as their first game.

Saint Toppy's excellent post a few up from this is sadly a very thorough analysis of Saints' current situation.

The problem may stem from a belief that winning is all that matters.  I don't think it is.  Defensive skill is obviously important and, as I said in my first paragraph, is something to be appreciated, but it doesn't follow that is all one might want to watch.  When I got a professional decorator to paint the external woodwork of my house a few years ago, he did a good job, demonstrating good skill in the process.  But it didn't mean that i wanted to stand there and watch him all the time!

There was a question early in this thread, posted while the match was in progress, in which the question was asked whether it was a very good or a very bad game.  In a way, the answer was "Both!"

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33 minutes ago, Cheshire Setter said:

Don’t want to drift off the topic of the actual game, but what is the answer to the problem that so many of us can see? We all know we don’t enjoy the action quite as much as we used to, but we seem to put it down to RL fans being negative. If we want the sport to have a renaissance (maybe even a survival 😳) we simply must make it attractive to potential new fans.

In the days of the Romans the colosseum was packed to the rafters because of the extravagant battles. I wonder if it would have gone down the same if it was just a borefest of slaves getting lethal injections? (Probably not the nicest analogy but you get my point).

I realise this post will probably get lots of abuse, but it just my honest point of view.  I am not a supporter of either club on show last night, there is sour grapes or bias on my part.

I think most of the reason the game is becoming a "borefest" is largely down to the referees/laws committee/rule makers. Certainly last night's game was a decent example of it. Both sides were allowed to play offside all game, and were not made to stand square a marker, and Kendall either didn't notice, or simply ignored it all game.  

Therefore, the dummy half's and halfbacks had no room to run or be creative, and we were left with a 5 drives and a kick slugfest down the middle.

Whenever, Warrington were in trouble defensively, miraculously somebody always went down injured, and the game was stopped (mainly for none head related injuries), and the defensive line was given time to reset and re-organise, and any attacking threat was neutralised. 

Personally, I think the game is stopped far too frequently, if the game has to be stopped due to a player injury. He should be made to leave the field for 2 sets of 6 and his team either play with a man down, or he is replaced but using an allotted substitution. If the injured player needs medical attention, the game should carry on but be moved infield by 10 meters, taking play away from the injured man whilst treatment is administered, and the game should continue unless there is a very serious injury.

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35 minutes ago, DOGFATHER said:

I realise this post will probably get lots of abuse, but it just my honest point of view.  I am not a supporter of either club on show last night, there is sour grapes or bias on my part.

I think most of the reason the game is becoming a "borefest" is largely down to the referees/laws committee/rule makers. Certainly last night's game was a decent example of it. Both sides were allowed to play offside all game, and were not made to stand square a marker, and Kendall either didn't notice, or simply ignored it all game.  

Therefore, the dummy half's and halfbacks had no room to run or be creative, and we were left with a 5 drives and a kick slugfest down the middle.

Whenever, Warrington were in trouble defensively, miraculously somebody always went down injured, and the game was stopped (mainly for none head related injuries), and the defensive line was given time to reset and re-organise, and any attacking threat was neutralised. 

Personally, I think the game is stopped far too frequently, if the game has to be stopped due to a player injury. He should be made to leave the field for 2 sets of 6 and his team either play with a man down, or he is replaced but using an allotted substitution. If the injured player needs medical attention, the game should carry on but be moved infield by 10 meters, taking play away from the injured man whilst treatment is administered, and the game should continue unless there is a very serious injury.

I don't know why you think you'd get abuse, there's been many a comment on this board from fans of many different clubs who all think the way the tackle / PTB is policed in SL is poor and its adding to the borefest were being served up week after week.

Your also right in that there's always been an element of 'gamesmanship' in order to gain an advantage, whether that be deliberately passing the ball into an opposition player on the floor (which thankfully they introduced a new rule to try & eliminate), to throwing yourself on the floor claiming you've been knocked over (lets call it the Gaskell swan dive), to feigning injuries to get the game stopped to get your defensive line reset. Some players and indeed some teams seem to employ these tactics more than others, but every team tries it on at some point.

Personally I quite like the idea you put forward of if the game is stopped for a player to receive treatment (other than for head injuries in which case they leave the field anyway for a HIA) they have to sit out the next set on the sidelines until their team next gains possession and the team is temporarily down a man.

The other thing that really bugs me is on-field coaching during the game. Warrington are one of the worst offenders for this, one of their coaching staff / trainers was on the field every time Warrington were in possession last night, moving from player to player giving them directions to change their positioning & structure while the game was in play. With such a small crowd you could actually hear the instructions he was giving to the players from the stands. Trainers should only be allowed on the field during stoppages in play or to treat injured players.

Edited by Saint Toppy
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All teams have their one eyed supporters— mine are no better or worse than others. I’ve been watching Wire since the mid 70’s and must have been unlucky most times when visiting Saints away—- including watching the Invicibles( still the best rugby playing team I’ve ever had the pleasure to watch)——when a home supporter spent the entire game whining about the referee instead of enjoying the rugby being played.

Something you used to witness, which has been in very short supply over a number of years, is fans, albeit begrudgingly, applauding and commenting on good rugby being played by the opposition.

I’ve watched last nights game again and cannot really see what Saints fans have to complain about—- to suggest that only one team is guilty of slowing the PTB is ridiculous—- I’m a massive fan of Roby but in some games he should have a mattress strapped to his back he lies on that much. 

With a couple of mins to go, any team would try and slow the game down. Saints benefitted from an injury to an opponent in the semi— Wire made use of an injury to King—- all teams do it, and along with dubious refereeing decisions, they even out over the season. 

Nobody likes to see their team beaten, but when it does, maybe accept once in a while, that the opposition deserved it ,

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3 minutes ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

With a couple of mins to go, any team would try and slow the game down. Saints benefitted from an injury to an opponent in the semi— Wire made use of an injury to King—- all teams do it, and along with dubious refereeing decisions, they even out over the season. 

 

Genuine injuries are one thing and are part & parcel of the game, its when they're not genuine that it starts to become farcical.

King was receiving treatment for what looked to be a genuine injury about 10mins before this, but that was to his shoulder. Saints get held up 1/2m from the Warrington line with 4 tackles remaining and King suddenly falls to the floor with nobody near him with an alleged leg injury. That 1 minute break and the bit of tape they put round his leg must be magic because he was running round fine after that.

As said previously a rule that makes these players sit out the next set or until their team next regains possession would cut out a lot of the acting.

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17 hours ago, M j M said:

Rule question: that kick through by Saints earlier which hit a Warrington man but wasn't played at, then bounced forward to another Warrington player.

In normal circumstances that would be an accidental offside. Does the fact that the first Wire player didn't play at it mean the accidental offside is ignored?

If the second player picks it up or plays at it should just be offside. He’s the player offside not the player it touches first. 

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1 hour ago, Bring back the Boyd said:

 

Nobody likes to see their team beaten, but when it does, maybe accept once in a while, that the opposition deserved it ,

It'll never happen in this context, what is it 4 or 5 times in a row we've beaten saints? no credit at all, we're cheats, we're grubs, we've exploited weak reffing, the ref was biased (cos of death threats) and we've never won SL, this is our cup final, we've got a t shirt to sell cos we beat saints.

 

They're incapable of giving any credit to us.

 

Terrible winners, even worse losers.

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Saints love injuries. 

Their fans love to boo them, their players love to score unopposed tries from them, their coach hates it when they are stopped from exploiting them. 

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59 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Genuine injuries are one thing and are part & parcel of the game, its when they're not genuine that it starts to become farcical.

King was receiving treatment for what looked to be a genuine injury about 10mins before this, but that was to his shoulder. Saints get held up 1/2m from the Warrington line with 4 tackles remaining and King suddenly falls to the floor with nobody near him with an alleged leg injury. That 1 minute break and the bit of tape they put round his leg must be magic because he was running round fine after that.

As said previously a rule that makes these players sit out the next set or until their team next regains possession would cut out a lot of the acting.

so the king issue, it was him that took the ball up from the restart, got tackled and his leg went sideways under the weight of walmsley tackling him, he then drops the ball that lms go's running upfield with.

 

He was in sufficient pain that walmsey was really concerned and checks on him.

 

i've no idea how he got back as sky never showed it, however its in players dna to get back in defence, as we used to see players with head knocks. regardless of whether their leg is hanging off

 

 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Saints love injuries. 

Their fans love to boo them, their players love to score unopposed tries from them, their coach hates it when they are stopped from exploiting them. 

they were booing ratch last night, after he copped a really hard knee to the spine, the game wasn't even in play.

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Just now, Barry Badrinath said:

they were booing ratch last night, after he copped a really hard knee to the spine, the game wasn't even in play.

It was that that prompted my comments. 

 

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1 hour ago, Saint Toppy said:

Genuine injuries are one thing and are part & parcel of the game, its when they're not genuine that it starts to become farcical.

King was receiving treatment for what looked to be a genuine injury about 10mins before this, but that was to his shoulder. Saints get held up 1/2m from the Warrington line with 4 tackles remaining and King suddenly falls to the floor with nobody near him with an alleged leg injury. That 1 minute break and the bit of tape they put round his leg must be magic because he was running round fine after that.

As said previously a rule that makes these players sit out the next set or until their team next regains possession would cut out a lot of the acting.

King was hurt when he made the previous tackle, a Saints player even shouted up, if you watch it back.

 

HW

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23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Saints love injuries. 

Their fans love to boo them, their players love to score unopposed tries from them, their coach hates it when they are stopped from exploiting them. 

They are the only club I can think of whose fans boo / cheer when an opponent goes down injured. Really a very unpleasant crowd as a group, though I know from most of the Saints fans on here that it isn't all of them (probably not even most).

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I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.

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4 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

They are the only club I can think of whose fans boo / cheer when an opponent goes down injured. 

Ah come one, you've jumped the shark on that one

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17 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

They are the only club I can think of whose fans boo / cheer when an opponent goes down injured. Really a very unpleasant crowd as a group, though I know from most of the Saints fans on here that it isn't all of them (probably not even most).

I don't think any Wire fan is in a position to be commenting on the behavior of other teams fans given their own fans record of violence at games.

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19 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

They are the only club I can think of whose fans boo / cheer when an opponent goes down injured. Really a very unpleasant crowd as a group, though I know from most of the Saints fans on here that it isn't all of them (probably not even most).

Sadly all clubs have fans who do that. Most decent people don’t like to see injuries, what frustrates is when players feign or “play” on an injury. Ultimately it is up to the ref whether he stops the match or not but to see players rush in to the defensive line and then “break down” to test the ref isn’t a great look for our sport.

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11 minutes ago, Waynebennettswinger said:

Sadly all clubs have fans who do that. Most decent people don’t like to see injuries, what frustrates is when players feign or “play” on an injury. Ultimately it is up to the ref whether he stops the match or not but to see players rush in to the defensive line and then “break down” to test the ref isn’t a great look for our sport.

Nobody would have thought anything of it last night until it was highlighted over and over again by Saints. 

Look at the tackles where Ratch, Currie and King went down, they were all very very heavy tackles. Only they will know whether they played them up.

King is getting stick for playing injured then playing on, but Walmsley had a lot of treatment on his knee and then played on. RL is a tough game, players will get hurt, particularly late on as fatigue sets in, maybe Woolf should focus on his team, although you could argue he has done a great job of steering criticism from him and them with this. 

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Saints love injuries. 

Their fans love to boo them, their players love to score unopposed tries from them, their coach hates it when they are stopped from exploiting them. 

Any crisps to go with your bitter, Sir? 

 

Edited by Hela Wigmen
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FWIW, Woolf is right. The game in general, not just last nights game and certainly not exclusive to opposition of ours, has become slowed down a lot this year by tactical stoppages. Whether it’s as a result of rule changes and the lack of breaks caused by no scrums, I’m not sure but it’s certainly something that needs addressing, as do many of the short-term rules that have been brought in over the past twelve months. 

 

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