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League Restructure Thread (Merged Threads)


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Just now, Martyn Sadler said:

You can foresee the future!

As I said in the paper, the distribution I've instanced is just one potential model.

One of the problems for smaller clubs right now is that they can't attract investors because there is no clear pathway to reach the top other than by gambling on gaining an uncertain promotion.

With this structure there would at least be a clear vision of how they can attain success.

Its common sense. You don't need to be Nostradamus to see its a terrible idea that is flawed beyond belief.

And as I've said whatever funding model you choose it wont work. Going to the other extreme splitting diminishing TV revenue evenly 32 ways results in only a few full time clubs. This means poor games and terrible standards. Even at that you still have vast inequalities due to the size of clubs and we will still have very one sided games. We see that now in Super League with 12 clubs getting the same and running full time clubs. All of those issues are compounded many times over when 32 teams get only something like £600,000 each.

With your structure clubs still have to gamble to compete or they are perennial whipping boys. Nothing changes that. Its fantasy stuff.

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I find the idea of home and away league fixtures between Catalans Dragons and West Wales Raiders so preposterous I can't believe Martyn is serious.

It would be like putting Liverpool and Southport or Sale Sharks and Sale RFC in the same division. Absurd.

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2 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I keep banging the same drum but nobody is listening!

All community clubs want to see their best players reach their full potential whether that's in the pro game or international amateurs, but these coaches/officials know the majority of the lads going to the academies won't make it as professionals as they aren't good enough and a lot of those rejected players don't go back to their original amateur club when their pro contract ends.

Put simply, we can't afford to lose players at that age year on year. 

Let's open discussions with the community clubs and get their take on things as opposed to the subservient relationship that's there now 

 

We are preaching from the same hymn book. There needs to be a way to stop the SL teams coming in to all amateur teams and just signing everyone up simply because they are playing the percentages and know that 2 or 3 out of maybe 50 or so will be good enough to play in SL. Eventually the other 47 a few will filter down in to the Championship but most will go back to amateur or simply leave the game.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I know you're trying to make a comment to sound clever, but I would have hoped you could have done better than that.

No Martyn, from someone who lives outside the heartlands and works with people outside the heartlands I am trying to show you how ridiculous and corner shop this whole situation (not just your article) looks.

My colleague who I sometimes talk about RL to (not a RL fan) explained to me the other day. Wigan and Leeds and Hull and Catalans and St Helens are like big clubs I've heard of. Why isn't the game concentrated solely on trying to create more of those, more big crowds, big revenues and big TV audiences. He has little or no interest anything other than that. I would assume he is not alone. Now that is radical. Moving the deck chairs is avoiding the conversation.

Without that thinking there would be no Melbourne Storm, no NZ Warriors. 

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1 hour ago, Chris22 said:

A lot of thought and work has gone into that, clearly, so I don't want to just pan it. Especially as so many have complaints but few put forward solutions. But I struggle to see fans of Super League clubs paying to watch walkovers against part time players. I also don't see Sky wanting to broadcast it. Then there are player welfare concerns arising from so many mismatches. And the question of where the funding comes from.

No Chris, I certainly don't want to just pan it either....

I have a feeling that the clubs don't want "licensing" and want to open up the chance for any club to make a bid for Superleague via winning a promotion spot in the 14 club league. If clubs have the ambition and money to back themselves for SL then they will spend it and strengthen. Leigh were one club that didn't have time to strengthen, their owner didn't have time to spend his money.  I guess for next season  he will spend it in spades.  

I guess championship clubs have the chance unlike Leigh who came into SL last minute to strengthen now and maybe go full time 2022. I guess if any championship club doesn't want to go professional they won't be made to play in the 14 club competition. They can give way. As for 2023 I guess that most of the 2x10 will be professional with some makeweights at the bottom end of SL2. This seems to be about the owners, it's kind of "get your money out lads" time!!

There will be a third division of 16 clubs with no funding for the "Part timers" but having said that, will it turn out to be 16 clubs?? There is your league of mismatches perhaps Chris.... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Sky will of course not broadcast the matches that are likely to be one-sided, but that will be a minority of games.

What I've tried to do is create a system that gives all clubs an incentive to improve organically.

Do appreciate that but would also have a degree of player welfare concerns with part time players being consistently put up against some of the best professional players in the country.

Like I said before, it is easy to criticise and far harder to put forward solutions.

Whilst I don't think any structure change will resolve the issues we face, it certainly helps to have won open discussion about the best way to progress the game.

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There just aren’t enough rich people with dreams of owning a rugby league club to make Martyn’s scheme work.

If there were than a franchise and conference system would make sense.

As it is, there aren’t so it doesn’t make sense and could be dangerous for player welfare as others have mentioned.

 

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58 minutes ago, del capo said:

Has Martyn  totally lost the plot ?

Even the NCL are struggling with  some  mismatches following  a conference type system enforced by Covid. Apart from anything else what's left of the fan base will vote with their feet if ever such a plan came to fruition.

Whatever happened to Little Mo's ' Framing the Future ' all those years ago ?

Out of respect for Martyn I decided to read his vision again.

The latter parts of his plan have some merit in that fans MAY get the opportunity of seeing new opponents to those at present.

But I still can't get past the problem of a  likely total collapse of gates at SL level for the first 10 weeks of the season  St Helens get Warrington and that quite frankly is it - Will the thousands turn up at Wigan for Swinton , Oldham or Rochdale ? they've just stuck 50 on  Leigh..... if that should happen the whole of RL becomes terminal half way through the season.

Income is absolutely key to everything. The proposed funding re distribution is inequitable and will not work - and perversely it is the top clubs that need it the most to remain competitive within the general public's eye as a sport worthy of more than a casual glance

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10 minutes ago, Chris22 said:

Do appreciate that but would also have a degree of player welfare concerns with part time players being consistently put up against some of the best professional players in the country.Like I said before, it is easy to criticise and far harder to put forward solutions.  Whilst I don't think any structure change will resolve the issues we face, it certainly helps to have won open discussion about the best way to progress the game.

OH I do apologise, you were talking about this:-

Conference 1 (Western Conference) St Helens.v.Workington

Conference 2 (Greater Manchester Conference) Wigan Warriors.v.Rochdale

Conference 3 (Pennine Conference) Huddersfield Giants.v.Keighley Cougars

Conference 4 (North East Conference) Leeds Rhinos.v.Hunslet

Conference 5 (Eastern Conference) Hull FC.v.Coventry Bears

Conference 6 (Three Nations Conference) Catalans Dragons.v.West Wales Raiders

Point entirely taken. It's not going to happen anyway.....

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4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Easy, if the cap is raised the very same player's get a rise, nothing more nothing less, there are no other player's to sign.

Leigh are apparently "closing in" on two NRL players and players may come on the market between now and next year?

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5 hours ago, MattSantos said:

Yes, fewer players is the answer!

Jesus wept

From memory there's 10 academy sides, so 200-250 players of whom maybe 30-40 get signed.

Many players are signed who have little / no prospect of making it, but are signed to make up the numbers. If you need 4 props in a squad, the best 4 props get signed regardless of whether they have any chance of making pro. 

Taking 200-250 of the best juniors damages the community game by making it harder for them to field teams. Many of the Academy players who does not make pro, quit the game.

 

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3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Only 2 of the u17s at Leeds are being paid a penny this year to play. 1 has already played for the first team multiple times and the other can't be far behind.

The rest, including those in the academy origin clash, are playing for free. 

I know you’ve mentioned this before Tom.  I don’t really know how wide spread it is.

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1 minute ago, Lowdesert said:

I know you’ve mentioned this before Tom.  I don’t really know how wide spread it is.

I can't say I know for certain either with anyone else, it would be interesting to see how other clubs have managed it.

I know in the recent past some academy players doing virtually full time training were on something like £60 a week at othet clubs.

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3 hours ago, Death to the Rah Rah's said:

I keep banging the same drum but nobody is listening!

All community clubs want to see their best players reach their full potential whether that's in the pro game or international amateurs, but these coaches/officials know the majority of the lads going to the academies won't make it as professionals as they aren't good enough and a lot of those rejected players don't go back to their original amateur club when their pro contract ends.

Put simply, we can't afford to lose players at that age year on year. 

Let's open discussions with the community clubs and get their take on things as opposed to the subservient relationship that's there now 

 

Not sure if that’s referring to me or not but I an totally for the Community game as well as totally for having Academies.

But, I will repeat, the answer is not just ‘get rid of academies’, the same as it’s not to ‘decimate the Community clubs’.  There has to be a balance which I referred to some while ago together with the HKR/Bastion approach where they took a full team out of Skirkaugh.

We have to accept that some good Community players will not make it, neither will some bad ones.  How they are dealt with at the Pro Clubs absolutely has a lot to do with it and players leaving the game altogether.  This is where the focus should be.

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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I can't say I know for certain either with anyone else, it would be interesting to see how other clubs have managed it.

I know in the recent past some academy players doing virtually full time training were on something like £60 a week at othet clubs.

Yes, that is a general figure and a good few we’re on that when I was involved.  Strangely enough, some that got poached by Leeds from Hull were on a lot more!  Times have changed.

Some Leeds lads did ok today though.

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53 minutes ago, Scubby said:

No Martyn, from someone who lives outside the heartlands and works with people outside the heartlands I am trying to show you how ridiculous and corner shop this whole situation (not just your article) looks.

My colleague who I sometimes talk about RL to (not a RL fan) explained to me the other day. Wigan and Leeds and Hull and Catalans and St Helens are like big clubs I've heard of. Why isn't the game concentrated solely on trying to create more of those, more big crowds, big revenues and big TV audiences. He has little or no interest anything other than that.

What does that actually mean? 

A five team league? 

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17 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Leigh are apparently "closing in" on two NRL players and players may come on the market between now and next year?

leigh have signed sam stone and jai whitbread from gold coast.josh eaves and matty foster from saints on loan and jack logan fom hull

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I read it but that´s a non starter from Martyn. 

The money can´t split that far. Even my idea of a proper SL conference system (2x10, top 3 in each make playoffs) would be splitting the money tight (1.3 mil a piece) plus we´d have some weaker teams. Martyns system is blowout central. 

Again, as a non heartlands fan I don´t see how we market this 36 team hammerings.  I´d be in favour of the game giving a protected spot to a french team and a welsh team in any system though, to build the international teams up. 

 

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1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I know you're trying to make a comment to sound clever, but I would have hoped you could have done better than that.

Martin you already cover changes, a couple of many that's been made over the years. Why suggest another? Stability and growth is what we need not constant changes. You state too few teams are successful. It that the successful teams fault. This happens in football amongst other sports. I cannot see why we can't keep things as they and build. We struggle as a sport as teams, particularly lower division teams can't plan mid or long term. These constant changes scream of amateurism and a lack of direction by our sport.

Like poor jokes? Thejoketeller@mullymessiah

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26 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

From memory there's 10 academy sides, so 200-250 players of whom maybe 30-40 get signed.

Many players are signed who have little / no prospect of making it, but are signed to make up the numbers. If you need 4 props in a squad, the best 4 props get signed regardless of whether they have any chance of making pro. 

Taking 200-250 of the best juniors damages the community game by making it harder for them to field teams. Many of the Academy players who does not make pro, quit the game.

 

Not unfair. I think we make this harder than it needs to be, but still a hefty debate 

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2 hours ago, del capo said:

Has Martyn  totally lost the plot ?

Even the NCL are struggling with  some  mismatches following  a conference type system enforced by Covid. Apart from anything else what's left of the fan base will vote with their feet if ever such a plan came to fruition.

Whatever happened to Little Mo's ' Framing the Future ' all those years ago ?

how come I find myself agreeing with you Del Capo 😉

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