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Salford to move to Moor Lane?


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I think a lot of posters are addressing this from the wrong direction. 

People can discuss the ground and attendances being too small for Super League, and suggest we should effectively accept our fate and relegate ourselves. But why? 

Super League *should* be strong enough to make a club with crowds of less than 5,000 and restricted matchday revenue uncompetitive resulting in their relegation. However, the stark reality is that there are not enough big clubs in Super League for this to be the case.

The aim has to be to create more 'big' clubs. Not make the smaller clubs even smaller. Catalans have been fantastic for the game as they have created another 'big' club. 

I'm fully supportive of clubs like Toulouse (and potentially York and Newcastle) overtaking us due to more money, better infrastructure etc. But it is the job of Super League and The RFL, along with these clubs, to make that happen. Whether that be through the re-introduction of licencing, relegation exemptions or another method.

Salford moving to a stadium where we will have greater financial & commercial control as well as investing sustainably in the player pathway programme I have mentioned previously in this thread is not the cause of Super League's problems. The fact that we can now do this after being so poorly ran for over a decade is a symptom of how fragile, unambitious and lacking in strategy the game is. 

Gary Hetherington has made the same point today. The sooner we focus on building more 'big' clubs over kicking the smaller clubs, the sooner Super League will begin to resemble its name.

Edited by Ray Cashmere
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5 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

I think a lot of posters are addressing this from the wrong direction. 

People can discuss the ground and attendances being too small for Super League, and suggest we should effectively accept our fate and relegate ourselves. But why? 

Super League *should* be strong enough to make a club with crowds of less than 5,000 and restricted matchday revenue uncompetitive resulting in their relegation. However, the stark reality is that there are not enough big clubs in Super League for this to be the case.

The aim has to be to create more 'big' clubs. Not make the smaller clubs even smaller. Catalans have been fantastic for the game as they have created another 'big' club. 

I'm fully supportive of clubs like Toulouse (and potentially York and Newcastle) overtaking us due to more money, better infrastructure etc. But it is the job of Super League and The RFL, along with these clubs, to make that happen. Whether that be through the re-introduction of licencing, relegation exemptions or another method.

Salford moving to a stadium where we will have greater financial & commercial control as well as investing sustainably in the player pathway programme I have mentioned previously in this thread is not the cause of Super League's problems. The fact that we can now do this after being so poorly ran for over a decade is a symptom of how fragile, unambitious and lacking in strategy the game is. 

Gary Hetherington has made the same point today. The sooner we focus on building more 'big' clubs over kicking the smaller clubs, the sooner Super League will begin to resemble its name.

Spot on and I made a similar point earlier in the thread. 

I tend to agree with Damien on the salary cap. I've been reluctant to see too many increases as I'm not convinced the game can afford it and I'm not a fan of the rich backer model of Union, but I think we maybe need to loosen the reigns on the bigger clubs who can afford more now. 

I think the salary cap is working too much for the smaller clubs nowadays rather than the bigger clubs and the wider game. But, when we see some top clubs still needing to have owners pump hundreds of thousands in per year to balance the books I'm not sure it'll happen. 

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44 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

And syeal the chance for a real manchester club to exist , lunancy. 

Do you really think Salford fans care more about a Manchester club existing (that’s only important in the minds of keyboard warrior expansionists) than the existence of their own club? 

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12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Spot on and I made a similar point earlier in the thread. 

I tend to agree with Damien on the salary cap. I've been reluctant to see too many increases as I'm not convinced the game can afford it and I'm not a fan of the rich backer model of Union, but I think we maybe need to loosen the reigns on the bigger clubs who can afford more now. 

I think the salary cap is working too much for the smaller clubs nowadays rather than the bigger clubs and the wider game. But, when we see some top clubs still needing to have owners pump hundreds of thousands in per year to balance the books I'm not sure it'll happen. 

I completely agree with the sentiment that we should not be holding back the big clubs but I just don't think there are enough big clubs for a salary cap rise to have an impact.

I've made this point elsewhere: how many clubs are using the full cap and 2 marquees? Who is knocking on the door arguing the salary cap is holding them back? I think many of the 'bigger' clubs are quite content knowing they can restrict their expenditure to a certain amount that enables them to compete every year.

Super League desperately needs more Catalans to push the traditional big clubs to drive up their standards. If we can achieve that, then a raised salary cap will make much more sense.

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18 hours ago, Scubby said:

Then let's get Wigan to move to Orrell, Hull to Hull Ionians, Wakefield can go to Dewsbury and Huddersfield can move to Batley. Salford can go to Moor Lane.

We can pitch this to Sky and see if they want to bump the TV back to the previous mark of £40m per year? 

Well let’s sit back and watch em all go bust, with overheads they can’t afford. Anyway Hull Ionians sounds quite up market, sky will love it! 

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3 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

If I were Salford I'd go the full way, re-brand as Manchester and try and get a gig here at the Manchester City Academy stadium, Academy!!!!

I know it's not in Salford but then what is these days and of course it may not be available or far too expensive, I don't even know who owns it, is it the council or the club?. However it's modern, central to Manchester, well served by public transport and parking. It holds 7,000, perfect for a club like Salford.

I know nothing about Manchester politics but is there any reason this couldn't happen, no sarcasm please, I'm just wondering?

Screenshot.jpg

Why would City even consider it? They don't need the money or the hassle.

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23 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Super League *should* be strong enough to make a club with crowds of less than 5,000 and restricted matchday revenue uncompetitive resulting in their relegation. However, the stark reality is that there are not enough big clubs in Super League for this to be the case.

That's the big point there. 

The system SHOULD effectively relegate them. They shouldn't relegate themselves. They currently are stronger than the teams below them with the resources they have.

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1 hour ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Who is knocking on the door arguing the salary cap is holding them back? 

It seems to be mostly Wigan fans who miss the old days of just outspending everyone else. (Although that club's problems are much wider and include apparently disastrous salary cap management).

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3 minutes ago, M j M said:

It seems to be mostly Wigan fans who miss the old days of just outspending everyone else. (Although that club's problems are much wider and include apparently disastrous salary cap management).

Does anyone know who Wigan's second marquee is after Bateman? Do they even have one?

I'd guess not considering the deal they supposedly offered Williams which suggests that their ability to spend is a bigger concern than restrictions imposed upon their spending.

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3 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Does anyone know who Wigan's second marquee is after Bateman? Do they even have one?

I'd guess not considering the deal they supposedly offered Williams which suggests that their ability to spend is a bigger concern than restrictions imposed upon their spending.

Bevan French?

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6 minutes ago, M j M said:

It seems to be mostly Wigan fans who miss the old days of just outspending everyone else. (Although that club's problems are much wider and include apparently disastrous salary cap management).

That really isn't the impression I get from reading this forum.

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1 hour ago, Ray Cashmere said:

I completely agree with the sentiment that we should not be holding back the big clubs but I just don't think there are enough big clubs for a salary cap rise to have an impact.

I've made this point elsewhere: how many clubs are using the full cap and 2 marquees? Who is knocking on the door arguing the salary cap is holding them back? I think many of the 'bigger' clubs are quite content knowing they can restrict their expenditure to a certain amount that enables them to compete every year.

Super League desperately needs more Catalans to push the traditional big clubs to drive up their standards. If we can achieve that, then a raised salary cap will make much more sense.

Yes, I have held the above view for a while, however I think we have to move with at least inflation and have space for growth for those who want to spend more. 

I'm not a fan of marquee rule tbh, I thought it was flawed from the start and I've seen little to change my view there. While technically clubs can spend far more than the £1.8m that it seemed to stick at for a while, the way they can do it is a bit artificial - in reality you only get the benefit if you are prepared to pay individuals large amounts, when that may not be the best approach. 

I'm not convinced it is the traditional big clubs who need to drive their standards. In reality, they are the ones developing the players, pulling in the crowds, sponsors, getting viewing figures etc. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Does anyone know who Wigan's second marquee is after Bateman? Do they even have one?

I'd guess not considering the deal they supposedly offered Williams which suggests that their ability to spend is a bigger concern than restrictions imposed upon their spending.

Possibly, or that there isn't anyone around that warrants a £300k salary at the moment. 

Wigan claimed they offered Williams their highest ever contract in the history of Wigan RL (Iirc), which suggests they don't have a 2nd marquee, but they are prepared to spend. 

Although, I'm not sure I trust too much that comes from the Wigan club under Lenegan and Radlinski, I think they gaslight the Wigan fans. 

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10 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

 

I'd guess not considering the deal they supposedly offered Williams which suggests that their ability to spend is a bigger concern than restrictions imposed upon their spending.

https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/we-had-a-legal-document-wigan-explains-how-they-could-have-forced-things-through-with-george-williams-42850/

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14 minutes ago, Ray Cashmere said:

Does anyone know who Wigan's second marquee is after Bateman? Do they even have one?

I'd guess not considering the deal they supposedly offered Williams which suggests that their ability to spend is a bigger concern than restrictions imposed upon their spending.

People get far too hung up on marquees as an excuse not to raise the salary cap. Marquee players often aren't good value for money, Wigan's have invariably been poor. Looking at last season George Burgess was a disaster and Bateman average.

I can completely understand why a club would not want to have marquees. There are plenty of good reasons not to pay 2 players excessively more than the rest, squad morale and putting all your chips in one (or two) basket as much as anything. I also don't think its particularly good to have a system that encourages a marquee getting £250k and paid a fortune while a youngster plays for 30k.

Edited by Damien
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A few misguided comments on here.

The current club don't owe the council money so they can't come after them. The money is in the CVA. Blame Marwen for that.

The Academy was scrapped after the RFL didn't award funding or a place in the elite. Again Marwen decided to save money and this was his best answer.

The move will probably increase the funding available if as suggested the concessions money goes to the club.

The ground at Moor Lane may be expanded if crowds pick up

The current management seem to be going the right way as evidenced by the pathways and the work in local schools.

It is a long hard path 

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39 minutes ago, M j M said:

It seems to be mostly Wigan fans who miss the old days of just outspending everyone else. (Although that club's problems are much wider and include apparently disastrous salary cap management).

It doesn't at all though does it?

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On 09/11/2021 at 22:04, dead man inc said:

Well it does when Salford decided to default on the £1.5 million pound loan from the council - taxpayers money that could/should have been used to help the most disadvantaged  in the Salford community 😢

Your concern for our fellow souls is admirable. Good on you. But a couple of points. First Local Government finances aren't like a wage or benefits, all ploughed into one account. There are separate funds, strictly enforced by the Treasury where monies can be spent or not. Paid or not, it wouldn't be going into SCC's social care budget.

On 10/11/2021 at 09:05, Mr Frisky said:

Hope they go for 6G then.

It will 6G, 3D and in the 5th Dimension. Its Salford ain't it.

On 10/11/2021 at 10:26, Tonka said:

To be fair to Ray he quite deliberately said "full commercial control" in his original post.  When he says "effectively, yes" on the issue of legal ownership, he's not trying to suggest that leasehold = legal ownership of the title.  We all know, however, that leasehold ownership is akin to full ownership if you can treat the asset as yours, and that's all he's saying.  The length of the lease will be important (21 years is different to 100, for example), as will whether Salford as leaseholder is free to develop the seating capacity or make any other changes to enhance the stadium.

I just want to wish good luck to Ray, he comes across as pragmatic and on top of the issues.

Indeed one of the better contributors. And clearly knows his stuff.

On 10/11/2021 at 14:11, Ray Cashmere said:

Thanks, I appreciate it.

My issue is when people try and use things like this as a stick to beat Salford with such is their desperation to attack clubs like us.

Criticise our crowds. Criticise our poor performances on the pitch. Criticise the Koukash era. We're a long way away from where we should and need to be. Just don't try and manufacture contrived arguments over things which are positive and promising.

Yup "Contrived arguments," or perhaps just bitter or scared. 

On 10/11/2021 at 17:10, theswanmcr said:

We’ll said. Not everyone but there is a lot of Salford bashing on here.

We are hammered for the mess we are in with the Stadium - fair enough and mistakes were made, but we built a new ground (after the much better original design collapsed) and didn’t just sit on our a*** like others. Turns out it was the wrong option in the end but we showed ambition and it backfired.

So now we have Hobson’s Choice by the looks of it with Moor Lane. And many having a go at the lack of ambition and small time look of a 5k stadium… after we have clearly shown that a bigger ground is too big for little Salford!

This ground option - though by no means perfect - will be fine for where we are at the minute and as you say Shropshire looks good when full.

if other bigger clubs with bigger grounds can come from somewhere to take our place in SL so be it.. but having been to both stadiums I’d rather go to Moor Lane than AJ Bell any day no matter what league we are playing in.

Hobson's Choice. Aptly Salfordian I think.

23 hours ago, Morris Wanchuk said:

I’m more bothered about the fact that Salford have been allowed to operate at this ‘elite level’ without running an academy. If this move allows them to consolidate themselves financially through increased revenues on match days etc and invest in an academy then that’s a massive plus. 

Clearly you don't realize SRD have been trying to re-build that Academy since Koukash's decision. Or that the RFL only seemingly want the advantages of those Academies and the rigged salary cap dispensations with the Big Clubs.  Regional Academies run free of the clubs would be far cheaper and better in quality.

12 hours ago, Damien said:

It's not just grounds though, and there is just as much criticism of clubs with grounds that are too big. Let's face it, the AJ Bell isn't a big ground and looks fine with 5-6,000 people but Salford just did a poor job of filling it and could even get those crowds.

It really is the full package of what a club brings that people look at when clubs get criticised. That is why a club like Castleford doesn't get anywhere near the same criticism as those you cite despite playing in a poorer ground than Salford or Huddersfield. 

Tell how they did a bad job? I am sure Mr King and Mr Blease would like to know better.Personally I thought it was because people were annoyed with MK, the Willows closing or the site of the AJ Bell of Doom or that the team was ######, unlike MUFC or MCFC.

6 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

If I were Salford I'd go the full way, re-brand as Manchester and try and get a gig here at the Manchester City Academy stadium, Academy!!!!

I know it's not in Salford but then what is these days and of course it may not be available or far too expensive, I don't even know who owns it, is it the council or the club?. However it's modern, central to Manchester, well served by public transport and parking. It holds 7,000, perfect for a club like Salford.

I know nothing about Manchester politics but is there any reason this couldn't happen, no sarcasm please, I'm just wondering?

Screenshot.jpg

First MCFC aren't looking to rent out that fairly excellent ground to anyone bar themselves. It would be Council owned athletics stadium round the corner they would play or the National Speedway Centre in Belle Vue. 

Second there is no need or desire for a name change. No more than say Aston Villa, Benfica, St Pauli, Sampdoria, Feyenoord, Chelsea,Everton or Patrick, the last two who don't even play in those suburbs.

And lastly if it is Moor Lane, its four miles from the very centre  of Manchester. It couldn't get closer for a big city.

 

Lastly can we knock it on the head about 5,000. The intention is to expand it to up to 8,000, which is more than ample for a league that averages that per season.

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54 minutes ago, idrewthehaggis said:

Your concern for our fellow souls is admirable. Good on you. But a couple of points. First Local Government finances aren't like a wage or benefits, all ploughed into one account. There are separate funds, strictly enforced by the Treasury where monies can be spent or not. Paid or not, it wouldn't be going into SCC's social care budget.

It will 6G, 3D and in the 5th Dimension. Its Salford ain't it.

Indeed one of the better contributors. And clearly knows his stuff.

Yup "Contrived arguments," or perhaps just bitter or scared. 

Hobson's Choice. Aptly Salfordian I think.

Clearly you don't realize SRD have been trying to re-build that Academy since Koukash's decision. Or that the RFL only seemingly want the advantages of those Academies and the rigged salary cap dispensations with the Big Clubs.  Regional Academies run free of the clubs would be far cheaper and better in quality.

Tell how they did a bad job? I am sure Mr King and Mr Blease would like to know better.Personally I thought it was because people were annoyed with MK, the Willows closing or the site of the AJ Bell of Doom or that the team was ######, unlike MUFC or MCFC.

First MCFC aren't looking to rent out that fairly excellent ground to anyone bar themselves. It would be Council owned athletics stadium round the corner they would play or the National Speedway Centre in Belle Vue. 

Second there is no need or desire for a name change. No more than say Aston Villa, Benfica, St Pauli, Sampdoria, Feyenoord, Chelsea,Everton or Patrick, the last two who don't even play in those suburbs.

And lastly if it is Moor Lane, its four miles from the very centre  of Manchester. It couldn't get closer for a big city.

 

Lastly can we knock it on the head about 5,000. The intention is to expand it to up to 8,000, which is more than ample for a league that averages that per season.

You had 2 lastlys- one less lastly and one more third then you would be on the correct track.

So overall what are you trying to say?

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5 hours ago, Eddie said:

Do you really think Salford fans care more about a Manchester club existing (that’s only important in the minds of keyboard warrior expansionists) than the existence of their own club? 

I dont think anyone in Salford would watch and if you are an active member of a niche internet forum you should probably think of a better insult than keyboard worriers for others.  

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Best of luck to Salford. I don’t have a problem with them only having a 5k capacity if/when they move to Moor Lane. If they can fill it regularly it will show there is some potential there for growth. Maybe with a team performing well on the pitch they could at some point look to take a few games to bigger stadia. Here’s hoping.

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