Return of Scrums - Meeting Today

[Man of Kent]

57 minutes ago, Desert Skipper said:

Daryl Powell was vocal in his dislike of how the lack of scrums took a lot of exciting set plays out of the game. I hope he sets to work on some fancy RL moves now. Looking forward to seeing Cats, Warrington, Leeds and HKR in that respect. Maybe Woolf and Wane will get in on the act too.

Hope so.

Fact is there is no other restart that ties up 12 players en masse. The better coaches and teams seem to use this to their advantage in good ball.

[Dunbar]

14 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep agree with all that, now that they have brought scrums back go the whole way and make them competitive once more by insisting the ball is put into the tunnel and not feeding it behind the front rows feet.

That would undoubtedly be the best option.

As Rugby League fans we are being presented with two options, 1) a painfully slow play the ball in the middle of the field with defences fully set resulting in zero open play or 2) a painfully slow walk to the scrum while everyone has a rest so that 12 players can lean on each and the scrum half (or usually a winger) rolls the ball into the hands of the loose forward (or usually a 9 now).

None of these are massively appealing. 

And worse. The scrum is actually an embarrassment to our sport that we are too arrogant to see as we replay the mantra "it's just to restart play" and we expect everyone to fall in love with the rest of our sport.

So scrums... boring without them, embarrassing with them.  So yes, why not actually make them a contest for possession and see where that takes us.

[Just Browny]

39 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

That would undoubtedly be the best option.

As Rugby League fans we are being presented with two options, 1) a painfully slow play the ball in the middle of the field with defences fully set resulting in zero open play or 2) a painfully slow walk to the scrum while everyone has a rest so that 12 players can lean on each and the scrum half (or usually a winger) rolls the ball into the hands of the loose forward (or usually a 9 now).

None of these are massively appealing. 

And worse. The scrum is actually an embarrassment to our sport that we are too arrogant to see as we replay the mantra "it's just to restart play" and we expect everyone to fall in love with the rest of our sport.

So scrums... boring without them, embarrassing with them.  So yes, why not actually make them a contest for possession and see where that takes us.

I disagree with this, probably for three reasons.

1. First and foremost, while the evolution of RL was clearly led by the intention to make the game more entertaining, I don't believe that in 2022 we should be constantly changing the rules in the belief that, if we do, more people will like it. I like RL for what it is and I like our scrums - they are not very exciting but they can create a bit of space and I like it when a team chooses to push and is rewarded. However, even if you do think we should be trying to make the game more entertaining..

2. We will never compete with RU on scrums. I would venture a guess that, even when we had fully competitive scrums, the general public didn't think they were as good as union scrums. It stands to reason: there are fewer players in our scrum, and if you really enjoy a good push and shove for possession those players would need to adapt their bodies so they were less suited to running and passing, and more suited to pushing and grunting (see - union props). I certainly wouldn't want that and we would still be competing with union on their turf. Our turf is running and passing, that's where we should be concentrating.

3. I can't believe any sport with aspirations to mass participation will be increasing the scope for head and neck injuries now or in the future. If anything, I think the union scrum is inching towards ours (is the ball ever won against the head? not when I watch) and it will inch ever closer with every major head or spine injury. It will be an evolution probably of many decades but I think it will happen.

I didn't like the 'COVID' scrums because turnover in a good position wasn't rewarded; the opposition just pointed towards the middle of the field and started again like in a half-time u8s game. What we're left with isn't perfect, but it's up to players and coaches to find a way to use it to find an advantage.

[Harry Stottle]

49 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

That would undoubtedly be the best option.

As Rugby League fans we are being presented with two options, 1) a painfully slow play the ball in the middle of the field with defences fully set resulting in zero open play or 2) a painfully slow walk to the scrum while everyone has a rest so that 12 players can lean on each and the scrum half (or usually a winger) rolls the ball into the hands of the loose forward (or usually a 9 now).

None of these are massively appealing. 

And worse. The scrum is actually an embarrassment to our sport that we are too arrogant to see as we replay the mantra "it's just to restart play" and we expect everyone to fall in love with the rest of our sport.

So scrums... boring without them, embarrassing with them.  So yes, why not actually make them a contest for possession and see where that takes us.

And.......... There are many other plusses that would result in making scrums competitive once more and the first is the fatigue factor that would result if they were competitive, would second rows be spending all the game out in the centre, will the same player's be able to cover on the outsides when the ball is lost from a scrum formation, will the backs have more freedom and the Half's more time to express themselves, will coaches go for the big behemoths to add weight to the pack or lighter forwards with more aerobic capacity, and those are just for starters.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Just Browny said:

but it's up to players and coaches to find a way to use it to find an advantage.

that just about says it all, evidence tells you it won't improve the game it as become far less entertaining as the years have gone on, in SL we have 12 teams playing exactly the same way, it's just some do it more consistently and better than others.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Harry Stottle

[Dunbar]

25 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I disagree with this, probably for three reasons.

1. First and foremost, while the evolution of RL was clearly led by the intention to make the game more entertaining, I don't believe that in 2022 we should be constantly changing the rules in the belief that, if we do, more people will like it. I like RL for what it is and I like our scrums - they are not very exciting but they can create a bit of space and I like it when a team chooses to push and is rewarded. However, even if you do think we should be trying to make the game more entertaining..

2. We will never compete with RU on scrums. I would venture a guess that, even when we had fully competitive scrums, the general public didn't think they were as good as union scrums. It stands to reason: there are fewer players in our scrum, and if you really enjoy a good push and shove for possession those players would need to adapt their bodies so they were less suited to running and passing, and more suited to pushing and grunting (see - union props). I certainly wouldn't want that and we would still be competing with union on their turf. Our turf is running and passing, that's where we should be concentrating.

3. I can't believe any sport with aspirations to mass participation will be increasing the scope for head and neck injuries now or in the future. If anything, I think the union scrum is inching towards ours (is the ball ever won against the head? not when I watch) and it will inch ever closer with every major head or spine injury. It will be an evolution probably of many decades but I think it will happen.

I didn't like the 'COVID' scrums because turnover in a good position wasn't rewarded; the opposition just pointed towards the middle of the field and started again like in a half-time u8s game. What we're left with isn't perfect, but it's up to players and coaches to find a way to use it to find an advantage.

1.  Personally I am not that bothered about watching a scrum.  But I am very conscious that they look awful.  We tell people that it is one of the toughest sports on the planet and then we have a scrum that is embarrassing... it looks like none of the players are actually trying.

2. Union is a red herring here.  The League scrums would be embarrassing whether the sport of Union existed or not.  Let's at least pretend that they are relevant by putting the ball in the middle, let the team with the feed hook the ball and let the opposition push to try and win the ball... therefore the team with the feed have to defend the ball.  A small change would make a big difference.  Not least because it would force both packs to actually push at the scrum which would genuinely keep them engaged.

3.  None of the above will make the sport any more dangerous.  It is the head knocks in the tackles that are the biggest issue facing the sport.  A bit of pushing will make zero difference.

[Man of Kent]

30 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

2. Union is a red herring here.  The League scrums would be embarrassing whether the sport of Union existed or not.  Let's at least pretend that they are relevant by putting the ball in the middle, let the team with the feed hook the ball and let the opposition push to try and win the ball... therefore the team with the feed have to defend the ball.  A small change would make a big difference.  Not least because it would force both packs to actually push at the scrum which would genuinely keep them engaged.

Surely scrums are either competitive/contested or are not, with no middle ground. Sportsmen are going to try to win the ball, with all that goes with it, ie the crumpled heaps of yore.  

[Dunbar]

18 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Surely scrums are either competitive/contested or are not, with no middle ground. Sportsmen are going to try to win the ball, with all that goes with it, ie the crumpled heaps of yore.  

True, but they can only be competitive within the guidelines laid down by the laws.  A Rugby League player would love to steal the ball from his opponent in every tackle but he is not allowed to.

[Kayakman]

17 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep agree with all that, now that they have brought scrums back go the whole way and make them competitive once more by insisting the ball is put into the tunnel and not feeding it behind the front rows feet.

Correct Harry and now add in a max. 1 m shove and that would clean everything up...we would have a competitive scrum which would have a quick play of the ball and the game would move on quickly...best of both worlds.

[The Future is League]

Now confirmed

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-league/60075146

[sentoffagain2]

   GOOD Rugby League without scrums is like fish and chips without salt and vinegar.

[devonhawk]

Scrums on the whole are a waste of time in rugby league these days. Unless the game goes back to how it was in the 80s/90s where you contested them, then we don’t need them. Personally, I would love the game to go back to those days when you contested scrums, hooked at the play the ball, shoulder charged and generally played with skill. One up rugby is boring…

[David Shepherd]

To be honest, I haven't missed scrums one bit.

Bringing them back is a backwards step for me.  The game was much improved for their absence.

 

[Davo5]

Good news,now we just need coaches to show some imagination & come up with some attacking set plays.

[Jughead]

11 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

To be honest, I haven't missed scrums one bit.

Bringing them back is a backwards step for me.  The game was much improved for their absence.

 

This. 

[Dunbar]

Didn't want to start another thread but there was a very commical scrum in the Broncos Melbournes game today (63rd minute if anyone to watch it).

Broncos had the feed and Ryan Papenhuyzen (12st 8lbs and normally a full back) packs in the front row opposite Payne Haas (18st 6lbs).

As mormal, they lean on each other and Ryan Reynolds feeds the ball behind Haas's legs and Papenhuyzen (his opposite prob) hooks it back.

Ref... "play on".

(Edit.  Posted this before I got to Papenhuyzen injury.  Feels less comic now)

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dunbar

[Griff]

I like scrums.  They bring variety to the way the game's restarted.   And I applaud the innovative ways scrums are packed these days.  They're nothing like the scrums of thirty or forty years ago and I see that as a good thing.

[sentoffagain2]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Didn't want to start another thread but there was a very commical scrum in the Broncos Melbournes game today (63rd minute if anyone to watch it).

Broncos had the feed and Ryan Papenhuyzen (12st 8lbs and normally a full back) packs in the front row opposite Payne Haas (18st 6lbs).

As mormal, they lean on each other and Ryan Reynolds feeds the ball behind Haas's legs and Papenhuyzen (his opposite prob) hooks it back.

Ref... "play on".

(Edit.  Posted this before I got to Papenhuyzen injury.  Feels less comic now)

  As it happened the game had gone for them by that time.But if the game had been close what a crucial heel that would have been.Ref couldn't penalise him because his feet were well back but when the ball was put in he struck like a cobra.

[ivans82]

All for inventive ways of scrumming , but was  a bit disappointed a few weeks back when the side fed the ball and there own "hooker" kicked the ball through and the non feeding side gained possession . Ref ordered re-scrum for no apparent reason . In my opinion if you can`t feed a scrum as they are now and get possession , you don`t deserve the ball .

[Gomersall]

3 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Didn't want to start another thread but there was a very commical scrum in the Broncos Melbournes game today (63rd minute if anyone to watch it).

Broncos had the feed and Ryan Papenhuyzen (12st 8lbs and normally a full back) packs in the front row opposite Payne Haas (18st 6lbs).

As mormal, they lean on each other and Ryan Reynolds feeds the ball behind Haas's legs and Papenhuyzen (his opposite prob) hooks it back.

Ref... "play on".

(Edit.  Posted this before I got to Papenhuyzen injury.  Feels less comic now)

Scrum half for the Broncos and co owner of Wrexham FC. Brilliant.

[Dunbar]

13 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

Scrum half for the Broncos and co owner of Wrexham FC. Brilliant.

I though it wasn't right but it sounded right.

(I'm a big Deadpool fan anyway!)

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  As it happened the game had gone for them by that time.But if the game had been close what a crucial heel that would have been.Ref couldn't penalise him because his feet were well back but when the ball was put in he struck like a cobra.

Ref could (and should have) penalised him as he was packing in to the scrum at prop and hooked the ball.

[sentoffagain2]

45 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Ref could (and should have) penalised him as he was packing in to the scrum at prop and hooked the ball.

  I always hooked the ball when playing open side prop.Balance on one leg and follow the ball in with the other.Good open side props got the ball nearly as often as the hooker.Scrums were a bit untidy though in the old days and could be quite brutal. .At least we had proper scrum halves then now most half backs are sterile with flair coached out of them at an early age.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  I always hooked the ball when playing open side prop.Balance on one leg and follow the ball in with the other.Good open side props got the ball nearly as often as the hooker.Scrums were a bit untidy though in the old days and could be quite brutal. .At least we had proper scrum halves then now most half backs are sterile with flair coached out of them at an early age.

Not as blatant as that though, after ball was in the scrum and the hooker has had a crack at it.

I played enough games in the front row in the 80's to know that the prop got their share of ball... but a prop hooking the ball like that would have been penalised 100% of the time.

But discussing scrum penalties in 2023 feels surreal at best.

[bobbruce]

17 hours ago, sentoffagain2 said:

  As it happened the game had gone for them by that time.But if the game had been close what a crucial heel that would have been.Ref couldn't penalise him because his feet were well back but when the ball was put in he struck like a cobra.

I didn’t think props were allowed to strike for it.