IMG - Thought's, suggestions and comments to move the game forward

[Big Picture]

18 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

To add to this, our no1 competitor/comparison is association football. Pre 1990s a predominantly working class game supported by predominantly working class people.

What did it do?

1. It partially gentrified. It diversified its audience. Part of that is its audience gentrifying itself, take Arsenal for example and a north London fanbase. 

2. It adapted to the modern world, looking beyond the visible spectators in the grounds every weekend.

3. In due course with the above, it saw that it was a business, and worked to secure business aims as much as possible.

Fundamentally, Soccer realised that a game rooted in an Anglo-Welsh working class that itself was rapidly disappearing wasn't sustainable. It has transformed Itself. IMG will at its heart have the same aim for Rugby League.

Without a doubt that's the only way IMG could ever make money out of their involvement with the game, but they'll come up against the limitations and constraints which the game's stunted geographic spread and small time ways place on it and I predict that they won't find an answer to those limitations and constraints.

[glossop saint]

5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

To add to this, our no1 competitor/comparison is association football. Pre 1990s a predominantly working class game supported by predominantly working class people.

What did it do?

1. It partially gentrified. It diversified its audience. Part of that is its audience gentrifying itself, take Arsenal for example and a north London fanbase. 

2. It adapted to the modern world, looking beyond the visible spectators in the grounds every weekend.

3. In due course with the above, it saw that it was a business, and worked to secure business aims as much as possible.

Fundamentally, Soccer realised that a game rooted in an Anglo-Welsh working class that itself was rapidly disappearing wasn't sustainable. It has transformed Itself. IMG will at its heart have the same aim for Rugby League.

On other threads then potential expansion areas are put forward because they have similar demographics to the heartlands. Why can't people have confidence in the sport to break out of its current demographic? Just because someone is white working class doesn't mean that it is more likely to take RL to it's heart. It might fail for a number of reasons but this is not one IMHO. It just restricts options (and often finances).

[Niels]

10 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Worcester pop 102 K 

Gloucester pop 166 K 

Cities yes because they've got a big church , but not massive population centres 

 

Noticeably they are cities without notable football clubs.

A lot of our teams are also. 

 

 

[Griff]

12 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Worcester pop 102 K 

Gloucester pop 166 K 

Cities yes because they've got a big church , but not massive population centres 

 

The link between having a cathedral and being a city was broken as long ago as 1887. What you need is actually a Royal Charter, not a cathedral, as anyone in Leeds will tell you.

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

The problem is that 3 votes isn't enough.  Its the reason we get conflicting views and ultimately contractory decisions being made. 

Hi Dave I actually said "McManus, Leneghan and Moran kind of shows where the influence sits" make of that what you will but the first 2 along with Mr Hetherington seem the most vocal in political matters concerning SL.

[ATLANTISMAN]

My prediction 

3 years down the line (Or whenever the SKY deal is up for renewal)

* Massive investment from the USA (500 million is peanuts for a serious investment team for a new league) 

* New branded league maybe NFL (Europe) each franchise receives around 25 Million advance for the first 5 years 

* 10 teams

* All matches on league owned streaming channel with 1 FTA every week

* All teams to run academy and women

* Central merchandising deal

* 18 rounds + 1 on the road match for each team to seek new markets with play offs max 22 

* Grand Final played in a different venue every year 

* End of season NFL origin game 

* Tests (Mid season v France and end of season series outside of World Cup years)

 

P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by ATLANTISMAN

[Phil W]

Having just watched Thunder's last home game of the season last night my thoughts have turned to next season.

It'll not happen but fixtures being announced just before or by the end of the World Cup would be great but appreciate logistics.

Take someone in Newcastle who goes to a game or sees it on TV they'll want to know, if they do enjoy it when they can see it again. It's really important to make the most of any feel good factor from this World Cup.

[Harry Stottle]

9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Fundamentally, Soccer realised that a game rooted in an Anglo-Welsh working class that itself was rapidly disappearing wasn't sustainable. It has transformed Itself. IMG will at its heart have the same aim for Rugby League.

To be able to aim a target is required, what do you think that will be?

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

To be able to aim a target is required, what do you think that will be?

The aim is commercial profit. That, to boil it right back down to basics, is the sole reason IMG have been involved.

[LeeF]

30 minutes ago, Phil W said:

Having just watched Thunder's last home game of the season last night my thoughts have turned to next season.

It'll not happen but fixtures being announced just before or by the end of the World Cup would be great but appreciate logistics.

Take someone in Newcastle who goes to a game or sees it on TV they'll want to know, if they do enjoy it when they can see it again. It's really important to make the most of any feel good factor from this World Cup.

Fixtures are usually announced at the end of November / early December which falls right after the World Cup. There is no logical reason why this shouldn’t occur again this year 

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The aim is commercial profit. That, to boil it right back down to basics, is the sole reason IMG have been involved.

That is like someone being asked 'how does an automatic car work' and the answer comes back 'automatically'. 

Put some meat on the bones, how will your commercial profit be acheived?

[gingerjon]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

That is like someone being asked 'how does an automatic car work' and the answer comes back 'automatically'. 

Put some meat on the bones, how will your commercial profit be acheived?

No.

You asked what the aim was.

I told you.

Everything that is proposed should refer back to that. If it doesn't, then it's not part of the brief.

There are dozens, hundreds, of pages about this with many different ideas explored.

No need to recap them all again now.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Hi Dave I actually said "McManus, Leneghan and Moran kind of shows where the influence sits" make of that what you will but the first 2 along with Mr Hetherington seem the most vocal in political matters concerning SL.

You say this,  but then we constantly hear complaints that the sport pander to the lower SL clubs too much, so that is a contradiction. 

They get the same votes as anyone else. 

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No.

You asked what the aim was.

I told you.

Everything that is proposed should refer back to that. If it doesn't, then it's not part of the brief.

There are dozens, hundreds, of pages about this with many different ideas explored.

No need to recap them all again now.

Perhap's I should have worded my original reply to @Tommygilfbetter, he was referencing RU and said this is what RL should aim for, I should have said "and how will we go about that" 

[Dave T]

6 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

No.

You asked what the aim was.

I told you.

Everything that is proposed should refer back to that. If it doesn't, then it's not part of the brief.

There are dozens, hundreds, of pages about this with many different ideas explored.

No need to recap them all again now.

This is an important point,  and is why I think some may be disappointed.  Some things may sound nice,  or exciting,  but unless there is a decent level of confidence that it will lead to increased income,  it will (and should)  get thrown by the wayside. 

It's really where sports like Union are smart.  They ruthlessly focus on the commercial side of things,  over almost everything else,  and this can then support some of the other areas of the game,  whereas we spend so much time playing around making tweaks that do little. 

It's like two families living in houses next to each other,  one has focused on the value adding developments,  an extension,  new windows,  loft conversion,  garage,  garden renovation,  stole some of their neighbours land out back etc.  The other has moved the furniture around and spent the rest of the time arguing over what colours the walls should be. 

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You say this,  but then we constantly hear complaints that the sport pander to the lower SL clubs too much, so that is a contradiction. 

They get the same votes as anyone else. 

Yes I know the voting system, but it isn't just the SL clubs who get a vote is it? Doesn't the RFL have a vote, but doesn't this only come into play in the event of a tie?

But I also know that in the structure referendum in '17 of all the pro/semi pro clubs when Leneghan and McManus suggested it should change, Ralph Rimmer contacted the club Chairmen individually and personally to push what SL wanted, was that their influence? My information was given to me in a conversation directly with a club Chairman.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Perhap's I should have worded my original reply to @Tommygilfbetter, he was referencing RU and said this is what RL should aim for, I should have said "and how will we go about that" 

I think you misread my point mate, in fact I said any reference to RU was pretty pointless.

My point was that IMG will have commercial growth at the heart of their policy. Football being our best reference point for how that has been achieved in this country.

[Tommygilf]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is an important point,  and is why I think some may be disappointed.  Some things may sound nice,  or exciting,  but unless there is a decent level of confidence that it will lead to increased income,  it will (and should)  get thrown by the wayside. 

It's really where sports like Union are smart.  They ruthlessly focus on the commercial side of things,  over almost everything else,  and this can then support some of the other areas of the game,  whereas we spend so much time playing around making tweaks that do little. 

It's like two families living in houses next to each other,  one has focused on the value adding developments,  an extension,  new windows,  loft conversion,  garage,  garden renovation,  stole some of their neighbours land out back etc.  The other has moved the furniture around and spent the rest of the time arguing over what colours the walls should be. 

Excellent point.

I think from the RFL perspective that is a large part of what IMG have been contracted to do imo. Grab the game by the scruff of the neck and say what is going to happen. It is sad that this couldn't come from within the sport but here we are.

[pahars]

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Worcester pop 102 K 

Gloucester pop 166 K 

Cities yes because they've got a big church , but not massive population centres 

 

Unlike RL they don’t have pro clubs in every nearby town though so most Premiership RU teams have basically an entire county or in some cases region to market to.

RL is for me considerably stronger in the heartlands then any other (non football) sport is anywhere in the UK as it gets good numbers despite all the pro teams being on top of each other. 

 

[Dave T]

23 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I know the voting system, but it isn't just the SL clubs who get a vote is it? Doesn't the RFL have a vote, but doesn't this only come into play in the event of a tie?

But I also know that in the structure referendum in '17 of all the pro/semi pro clubs when Leneghan and McManus suggested it should change, Ralph Rimmer contacted the club Chairmen individually and personally to push what SL wanted, was that their influence? My information was given to me in a conversation directly with a club Chairman.

That's just how things work.  If the RFL had fundamentally disagreed he wouldn't have done that. They broke away twice previously because they didn't. 

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Excellent point.

I think from the RFL perspective that is a large part of what IMG have been contracted to do imo. Grab the game by the scruff of the neck and say what is going to happen. It is sad that this couldn't come from within the sport but here we are.

I'm OK with using external people -  it's what everyone else has done really with external investment,  we've just done it in a different way by not selling the game itself,  which at the moment I'm in favour of. 

But most sports have used external expertise,  we've just done it in a slightly different way. 

[Pulga]

22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Or is it because he's p1553d CAS didn't win the GF 5 years ago , but doesn't want to say that to your face 

I stopped going for a few years because IMO there was nothing ' serious ' at stake because of licencing , the games were still as entertaining , the players still tried as much as they could , the refs still did a great job with the odd human mistake , but I just felt the excitement ( in my mind no doubt ) was missing , we won , OK , we lost , OK , but just not the same ' must win , daren't lose ' feeling 

All that returned in abundance with the middle 8s for me 

I love how this year we see the Penrith Panther put a reserve grade team on the paddock as do Catalan Dragons. 

Neither format gives you any more to play for for 99% of the games. It's pure Baby Boomer nostalgia to stick to P&R. It's an entertainment business at the end of the day. RL is up against basically everything that people could otherwise do as entertainment. Be it other sports to watch, hobbies like fishing or video games. The reason SL is the much poorer cousin to the NRL is because they're still trying to hold on to that nostalgia. In 2022 it's gone. It's been gone for possibly two decades. They are competing with massive, billion pound companies who have done their due diligence much better than this IMG survey and some are reaping the rewards.

 

 

[Barley Mow]

22 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Oh come on, get real.  Doesn't everyone in Britain know that Everton's in Liverpool, Aston Villa's in Birmingham and the others you mentioned are in London?

A lot of British people know Everton is an area of Liverpool,  Aston an area of Birmingham, but that is only because they have famous association football teams.

If football wasn't so ubiquitous in British culture, the vast majority wouldn't have any more idea than the general public knowing Hunslet is an area of Leeds.

So yes other popular British sports have a greater geographical spread at the top tier than RL. But no, their top clubs aren't necessarily in famous and glamorous locations.

[gingerjon]

42 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Excellent point.

I think from the RFL perspective that is a large part of what IMG have been contracted to do imo. Grab the game by the scruff of the neck and say what is going to happen. It is sad that this couldn't come from within the sport but here we are.

Football needed Sky to give it that boost and transform itself. It was mainly external driven (and, IMO, had as much to do with the Taylor Report as anything else.)

Sky then did give rugby league a massive cheque and ... well, here we are.

[Barley Mow]

12 minutes ago, Pulga said:

I love how this year we see the Penrith Panther put a reserve grade team on the paddock as do Catalan Dragons. 

Neither format gives you any more to play for for 99% of the games. It's pure Baby Boomer nostalgia to stick to P&R. It's an entertainment business at the end of the day. RL is up against basically everything that people could otherwise do as entertainment. Be it other sports to watch, hobbies like fishing or video games. The reason SL is the much poorer cousin to the NRL is because they're still trying to hold on to that nostalgia. In 2022 it's gone. It's been gone for possibly two decades. They are competing with massive, billion pound companies who have done their due diligence much better than this IMG survey and some are reaping the rewards.

 

 

Promotion and relegation as a general concept can't be 'gone' and only retained for nostalgia because it is used by some of the most successful sports leagues (some significantly more successful than NRL).

If it's a concept that is acceptable and works in the English association football pyramid (and therefore not just nostalgia there) how can it be simply nostalgia in RL?

The sporting market in the UK is so heavily focused on football that whether there is P&R or not, RL is clearly not going to compete with that behemoth any time in the foreseeable future. It would be less likely than trying to set up a RL competition in Victoria and expecting it to compete with AFL.

That being the case, RL needs a structure that makes the most of what it's got and looks to build on that where possible - a majority of British RL fans (and sports fans in general) seem to prefer P&R - I think getting rid of it would do more harm than good.