SL Clubs are deep in the red with huge losses

[ELBOWSEYE]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

A quick search about Simon Moran suggests that his net worth is in the range of 7-9 million US$, so not huge by any means and nowhere close to how rich the owners big time major pro outfits like Man U, Man City and the rest are.  Another thing about Moran is that although he made his money in the entertainment business, his ownership of Warrington doesn't seem to have helped them expand their reach beyond their existing fanbase.

Another quick search about Paul Caddick suggests that his net worth is something like 300 million US$.  He's not one of the RL followers who typically own RL clubs though, he's an RU man who made his money in construction.  His involvement in RL only came about because the RU and RL clubs in Leeds are under the same ownership.  And Leeds is the one possible exception identified by McGuire to the smallish, economically disadvantaged towns which are the basis of British RL, so it's likely the only traditional RL club would ever interest someone like Caddick.

FYI Manchester City recently reported a record profit of 41 million £, they're not chronic money losers like RL clubs.  Note that @Roughyed Ratsposted above that St Helens (McGuire's former club) have lost money in each the past 16 years and in relation to turnover their losses have indeed been huge.  The losses for their five worst years total 8.73 million £ which is almost 2 million £ more than their record turnover of 6.94 million £, whereas their last profit was less than 45,000 £.  Grim figures indeed.

So laugh all you want, that won't change the fact that McGuire was right about the reason why there's so little money in the game.  I'm still waiting for you or any of the other doubters here to offer even a shred of evidence that he's not.

Simon moran estimated wealth over £157m.And like a few other clubs not the only millionaire backer of Warrington. Stuart Middleton., chairman worth over £100 m not sure of the other backers. Possibly doesn't suit your narrative to downplay all RL backers. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by ELBOWSEYE

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Big Picture said:

McGuire can't point to a big city club in RL which is bringing in lots of money though, because no such club exists presently.  And the way the game is set up now, no such club will ever exist because the sport doesn't have something to offer which can break through in those cities.

RU may meet what he thinks is needed, but that just shows that he only grasps part of the issue.  RU has a mix of big city clubs and others in smaller places, and the two administrations involve a club in a small town (239th in England by population) and one which tried moving from London to Coventry which evidently didn't work like they hoped it would.

The Rugby Premiership likely overestimated the appeal of their game based on how big things like the Six Nations are and let costs escalate on that account, now they're having to rein themselves in and might have to cut their salary cap further.  Their business model also suffers the same instability as in other sports which have P & R, so naturally they want to move away from that.  I agree that whether they'll succeed is open to question.

I also agree that clubs can't just be plonked down willy-nilly, that wouldn't work either.  Expansion can only work if it's based on a strategy, and with something able to appeal to the big city dwellers who otherwise wouldn't take an interest.  Neither of those ever existed in London's case.

An interesting experiment in trying to grow something organically is the European League of "Football" (i.e., gridiron).  It's a multi-national league but operates at a low financial level where only a handful of North American "franchise players" get paid anything and the others (all Europeans) are unpaid.  They started last year with 8 franchises, grew to 12 and have plans to grow to 24, but whether it will ever amount to more than what it is remains to be seen.

This is the point.. you say it here.. the sport needs to offer something, it doesn't need to be based anywhere specific but the sport in itself needs to offer something.. THAT is the first part and the most important part, nothing will work without that no matter where its based. There is no quick fix, no cheat. RU cant do it because their product isn't great, we cant do it because our product isn't pushed enough loads of other sports can say exactly the same. 

Job 1 is to get the sport offering something, that is not about big cities, it is not about big backers, that is about the sport getting itself in gear. When that starts to happen other things become easier to solve (if they need it) and certain things will be seen to be less important (and they may not be the things we thing are obvious). But lets get job 1 sorted first. 

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, del capo said:

According to last years Sunday Times Rich list Simon Moran was worth £142 million.

Mike Danson major stockholder in Leneghans companies that own Wigan RL in the same list is worth £1.16 billion......

The Saints Board is packed with multi millionaires  - Mcmanus once being described as one of the top financiers in the Asian Pacific.

Our clubs are far more than just toys to these guys. The game is as much in their DNA's as it is in most on these forums..

The very top clubs are in good hands and I fear not. But as for those further down the chain, including those maybe showing a modest loss/even profit - could well be a different story.

Thanks for making me aware of that list, there's plenty of good information there.  Simon Moran isn't on it though, it cuts off at 650 million £, so I don't know what source you have for the figure you gave for his net worth.

Mike Danson is in the list at the net worth you stated, so you're correct about him.  News reports about him buying into the club mentioned that Ian Lenagan wants to take over the soccer club too, so maybe that was his motivation for buying in.

I see that St Helens has eight active Directors.  Information about their net worth isn't easy to find, but one source puts Eamonn McManus' new worth at 7 million £, I'm not if that qualifies as a multi-millionaire or not.

The very top clubs do have owners in the millionaire class, but as we've seen with London and David Hughes there's a limit to the losses they're both able and willing to absorb.

Edit: I found a Warrington Guardian report to that effect which says that Moran was 756th on a list of 1,000, but the Sunday Times reports about the list only go down to 250.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Big Picture

[iffleyox]

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Edited December 15, 2022 by iffleyox

[M j M]

7 hours ago, Big Picture said:

His involvement in RL only came about because the RU and RL clubs in Leeds are under the same ownership. 

This is fundamentally untrue. Caddick bought Leeds several years before the union club.

[steve oates]

8 hours ago, Big Picture said:

A quick search about Simon Moran suggests that his net worth is in the range of 7-9 million US$, 

Another quick search about Paul Caddick suggests that his net worth is something like 300 million US$. 

So laugh all you want............

Don't worry, I will, at your  "quick Search" you were called out on.....................

"Simon Moran estimated wealth over £157m.And like a few other clubs not the only millionaire backer of Warrington. Stuart Middleton., chairman worth over £100 m not sure of the other backers. 

You are also way off as regards Caddick's money and Rhinos chairmanship as well, with that made up utter rubbish. He played his Union a five minute walk from Headingley. People watch and play both codes......

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

This is fundamentally untrue. Caddick bought Leeds several years before the union club.

No he didn't.  He and Gary Heatherington bought the RL club in 1997, the same year they co-founded Leeds Rugby Ltd which took over the RU club the following year.  I suggest that Caddick wouldn't have been interested without the plan to combine with the RU club.

[BJW]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

No he didn't.  He and Gary Heatherington bought the RL club in 1997, the same year they co-founded Leeds Rugby Ltd which took over the RU club the following year.  I suggest that Caddick wouldn't have been interested without the plan to combine with the RU club.

1996

https://www.therhinos.co.uk/staff/paul-caddick/

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/paul-caddick-gary-hetherington-rhinos-22007087

Leeds Rugby Ltd was founded 1997. 

[Big Picture]

26 minutes ago, BJW said:

1996

https://www.therhinos.co.uk/staff/paul-caddick/

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/paul-caddick-gary-hetherington-rhinos-22007087

Leeds Rugby Ltd was founded 1997. 

Evidently Wikipedia was slightly off about when Caddick bought in.  This information leads me to wonder if combining with the RU club was his idea in the first place and maybe that was why he decided to buy in.  In hindsight it might have taken him some time to get their owners to warm up to the idea of combining with an RL club.

[Harry Stottle]

19 hours ago, Oxford said:

Surely not!

The Rugby Premiership likely overestimated the appeal of their game,

I like your answer to this statement by BP.

But we the converted who self appoint Rugby League as "The Greatest Game" could easily be tarred with the same brush.

[GUBRATS]

11 hours ago, Big Picture said:

No he didn't.  He and Gary Heatherington bought the RL club in 1997, the same year they co-founded Leeds Rugby Ltd which took over the RU club the following year.  I suggest that Caddick wouldn't have been interested without the plan to combine with the RU club.

Maybe just the realisation that the RL pitch at Headingley was being wasted on 20 games of RL and a part time car park for the cricket 

[BJW]

3 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Maybe just the realisation that the RL pitch at Headingley was being wasted on 20 games of RL and a part time car park for the cricket 

Or he also fell for the hype about how big the other code was going to be at attracting paying punters and that maybe he could attract some RFU international games to use Headingley?

Like any businessman he'd want his asset used as often as possible and with as many as possible using the hospitality and corporate facilities? Plus is the hotel at Headingley part of his 'empire'?

[Saint Toppy]

21 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I see that St Helens has eight active Directors.  Information about their net worth isn't easy to find, but one source puts Eamonn McManus' new worth at 7 million £, I'm not if that qualifies as a multi-millionaire or not.

 

You wont find much about Mike Coleman, his main RCMA Group offices are in Singapore & Zurich

[Saint Toppy]

Regarding spend & losses I don't expect Saints to be recording a profit anytime soon as they've recently announced a couple of new big investments they're going to make.

This week they put in a planning application to site over 800 solar panels on the roof of the South stand. Huge initial capital investment but gives them a year round future income generation and zero electricity running costs for the stadium going forward.

They also announce that they're partnering with the Council to develop the currently derelict Parr Leisure centre to turn it into a new state of the art training facility for the club and new public leisure facilities. Again massive initial investment but its needed to keep the club at the top given they've outgrown their current training facilities now they have the womens team.

It will be the board of directors funding this, which in raw numbers terms won't look good on the clubs accounts but is a positive investment for the club going forward.

[daz39]

On 14/12/2022 at 20:52, WakefieldCityLoyal said:

Well done to Wakefield. 
 

Up the Trin 

Love this club 

Love this City

Calm down, there's no trophies or titles to be had.

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Regarding spend & losses I don't expect Saints to be recording a profit anytime soon as they've recently announced a couple of new big investments they're going to make.

This week they put in a planning application to site over 800 solar panels on the roof of the South stand. Huge initial capital investment but gives them a year round future income generation and zero electricity running costs for the stadium going forward.

They also announce that they're partnering with the Council to develop the currently derelict Parr Leisure centre to turn it into a new state of the art training facility for the club and new public leisure facilities. Again massive initial investment but its needed to keep the club at the top given they've outgrown their current training facilities now they have the womens team.

It will be the board of directors funding this, which in raw numbers terms won't look good on the clubs accounts but is a positive investment for the club going forward.

Yup. It really is important to understand why clubs are overspending. It's the Co text that is important. 

If clubs are overspending because they just can't bring enough in to run the basic RL club, it's a problem. 

If clubs are spending on training grounds and facilities and infrastructure, it's all good. 

[ELBOWSEYE]

27 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yup. It really is important to understand why clubs are overspending. It's the Co text that is important. 

If clubs are overspending because they just can't bring enough in to run the basic RL club, it's a problem. 

If clubs are spending on training grounds and facilities and infrastructure, it's all good. 

Just a question Dave, does the losses by clubs who own their stadium and make separate income lump that in or show as different accounts because for example Saints, Warrington and Leeds be making a profit. 

[Dave T]

4 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Just a question Dave, does the losses by clubs who own their stadium and make separate income lump that in or show as different accounts because for example Saints, Warrington and Leeds be making a profit. 

I think it depends on how they are setup. I always find @M j M to be knowledgeable on this kind of subject.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

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Edited December 16, 2022 by Les Tonks Sidestep

[Toby Chopra]

6 hours ago, Saint Toppy said:

Regarding spend & losses I don't expect Saints to be recording a profit anytime soon as they've recently announced a couple of new big investments they're going to make.

This week they put in a planning application to site over 800 solar panels on the roof of the South stand. Huge initial capital investment but gives them a year round future income generation and zero electricity running costs for the stadium going forward.

They also announce that they're partnering with the Council to develop the currently derelict Parr Leisure centre to turn it into a new state of the art training facility for the club and new public leisure facilities. Again massive initial investment but its needed to keep the club at the top given they've outgrown their current training facilities now they have the womens team.

It will be the board of directors funding this, which in raw numbers terms won't look good on the clubs accounts but is a positive investment for the club going forward.

Sounds fantastic for the club and the town. A win-win blueprint for others. 

[Kirmonds pouch]

On 16/12/2022 at 13:27, daz39 said:

Calm down, there's no trophies or titles to be had.

How tedious are you, he's just happy that our little club does ok without a sugar daddy, should be applauded imho.

[daz39]

9 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

How tedious are you, he's just happy that our little club does ok without a sugar daddy, should be applauded imho.

Calm it, it's only a bit of a leg pull, lighten up.