IMG Grading Unveiled

[Barley Mow]

1 minute ago, daz39 said:

Are they the most attractive? Wire were awful last year, as were Leeds for the 1st half and most of this season, Wigan were also criticised last year, they are deemed to be the 'big clubs' who TV companies think that casual fans want to see.

Personally i'm not fussed for Wigan V Wire or Saints v Leeds etc every other week anymore i'd much rather see Wakefield v Salford or Hull KR v Catalans etc for a change, it gets boring watching the 'big clubs' every week.

I'd also love to see a terrestrial channel show a Championship and/or a League one game every week, either live or pre-recorded.

Rugby League isn't about 4 clubs but the media seem to think we all support one of those TV darlings.

As I say, it isn't my argument, just trying to think through their logic.

I agree with much of what you write.

[OriginalMrC]

28 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Now we can see the small print, I struggle to see how London ever gets back into Superleague under this structure.

The team that went up in 2018 wouldn't have gone up under this structure, and I don't see how London ever builds up the necessary financial strength outside superleague. Catchment or director investment points are too small to overcome this.

London only really "works" as a well supported club when in Superleague (and even then it'll need several years of investment to get there)

Tier 2 rugby league just doesn't cut through for people in London and there's no latent fan base to be engaged unlike in places like Fev or Widnes etc.

Similar concerns about Toulouse too.

Not under the current ownership of the club who's shrunk the fan base. It will take a new owner with a change of approach to grow the club before they are SL ready. 

[daz39]

2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

It's an average though, right? So it's less about how often you're on TV and more about what audience you pull when you get your chance.

And TV scores are one of several sub-gradings where there are only two levels - you're either above or below the 150k average benchmark with a 0.25 points bonus on offer.

We know the SL teams that will get above 150k. And we know teams outside SL won't. So it's only really key for those smaller superleague clubs: when you get your shot on TV, do you keep up a good average akin to the top clubs? If not you get lumped in with everyone else.

So the TV grading actually doesn't give an advantage to SL incumbents over Championship challengers, unless you're already an top audience draw.

Yeah actually i suppose that makes more sense but most people will see it as your average will have a better chance of going up if you're on tv more.

[Saint Toppy]

11 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

From a Wakefield POV, it’s interesting that the difference between finishing 11th and 12th is a mere 0.111 grading points. 

But you also have to remember while it may not mean much from the grading score POV you will still get relegated if you finish 12th and not if you finish 11th so there's still a massive incentive not to finish bottom (assuming there's another Grade B club in the Championship to replace them).

Looking at all the other criteria relegation will seriously damage many of your other scores in future years.

[Toby Chopra]

7 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you also have to remember while it may not mean much from the grading score POV you will still get relegated if you finish 12th and not if you finish 11th so there's still a massive incentive not to finish bottom (assuming there's another Grade B club in the Championship to replace them).

Looking at all the other criteria relegation will seriously damage many of your other scores in future years.

I might be misreading you but there's no automatic relegation for finishing 12th. It could still be the 11th placed club going down (or none at all) depending on how all the points tally. For instance I could see an 11th place Cas scoring lower than a 12th place Wakey due to the stadium.

[Roughyed Rats]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Think 8 for B, and 15 for A

I'd assess Hull KR as around 11 or 12 based on the greater detail released this week, by way of a benchmark. Seems about right too. There's good signposts in this model to nudge clubs in the right direction, maybe Rovers could scrape an A in 3 years time if they worked really hard. That's probably how it should be. 

7.5 for Cat B

[Veridical]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

No, the aim is to assess which clubs have the most growth potential - the mission being to grow the sport's commercial value. Like any business there's some things about your internal and external environment you can control, some you can influence, and some you can do nothing about. Just life eh. 

Well, that’s not what the cover page of the document says. It says that the “ultimate purpose” of grading is to “incentivise clubs”.

[Derwent Parker]

13 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you also have to remember while it may not mean much from the grading score POV you will still get relegated if you finish 12th and not if you finish 11th so there's still a massive incentive not to finish bottom (assuming there's another Grade B club in the Championship to replace them).

Looking at all the other criteria relegation will seriously damage many of your other scores in future years.

 

13 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

But you also have to remember while it may not mean much from the grading score POV you will still get relegated if you finish 12th and not if you finish 11th so there's still a massive incentive not to finish bottom (assuming there's another Grade B club in the Championship to replace them).

Looking at all the other criteria relegation will seriously damage many of your other scores in future years.

There wont be any P & R - the points are rigged to stop it as we all expected - unless anyone in future does a Leigh and can fund a SL team whilst in Champ.

Wonder if Leigh would have got up last year if this points system was in place

[Saint Toppy]

10 hours ago, yipyee said:

Interesting about catchment area, its not like you can do anything about this one and if a new club springs up on your doorstep the catchment area is halved.

Would Wigan and leigh be clubbed together and halved, if so thats tough on Wigan.

Would wakey be divided by 3 ??

 

I guess they have to draw the line somewhere but the current criteria does seem a bit arbitary and there's room for some tweaks. St.Helens population size is 183K so that firmly puts them in category score of 1, but I know quite a few Saints fans, many of them season ticket holders who live out of the borough, with quite a few of them in Knowsley (who's population size is listed at 148K). While they are 2 independent councils from a political POV, St.Helens & Knowsley currently have a combined healthcare authority and they use shared frameworks for the provision of other services. The Saints Foundation also counts Knowsley as within their "catchment" area, regularly holding events at clubs & in schools within Knowsley for junior development. Yet under the IMG guidelines as they stand this counts for nothing under this criteria.

One of the other posters mentioned it but I do think there should be an additional scoring criteria based on where the fans come from, not just on the local population. Clubs have the addresses of fans who buy tickets so they know exactly how many fans they are attracting from outside the local authority area. And there should also be some sort of scoring incentive to clubs who target "expansion" areas outside their own immediate catchment area where there are currently no other Tier 1, 2 or 3 clubs.

[Saint Toppy]

2 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

 

There wont be any P & R - the points are rigged to stop it as we all expected - unless anyone in future does a Leigh and can fund a SL team whilst in Champ.

Wonder if Leigh would have got up last year if this points system was in place

Err yes there is. IMG have clearly stated that the lowest placed Grade B SL club will be replaced by the highest placed Grade B Championship club.

Consistently finishing at or near the top of the Championship, being financially stable, having a decent stadium and investing in their social media should be enough to secure a championship a B grading and permit them promotion. 

[yipyee]

3 hours ago, gingerjon said:

So there is no incentive for any new club to set up in an area which already has a club.

Well there is if they instantly obtain half the catchment area pointwise!

[Derwent Parker]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Err yes there is. IMG have clearly stated that the lowest placed Grade B SL club will be replaced by the highest placed Grade B Championship club.

Consistently finishing at or near the top of the Championship, being financially stable, having a decent stadium and investing in their social media should be enough to secure a championship a B grading and permit them promotion. 

No - i read it that the B would only replace the SL 12th if their points are higher or they become an A

[Saint Toppy]

16 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I might be misreading you but there's no automatic relegation for finishing 12th. It could still be the 11th placed club going down (or none at all) depending on how all the points tally. For instance I could see an 11th place Cas scoring lower than a 12th place Wakey due to the stadium.

Not sure that 1 shiny new stand is going to score all the much more for Wakey TBH. While it may then satisfy some of the criteria for corporate, media etc. the increase in seat numbers then means they have to fill them otherwise they start losing out on the utilisation scoring.

[Saint Toppy]

2 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

No - i read it that the B would only replace the SL 12th if their points are higher or they become an A

Where have IMG said that one B grade club can only replace another B grade club if their overall points are higher within the B banding ?

I thought that guy from Keighly claimed that when he voted against the proposals, but IMG then clarified that it wasn't how it would operate ?

[Nothus]

1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said:

Where have IMG said that one B grade club can only replace another B grade club if their overall points are higher within the B banding ?

I thought that guy from Keighly claimed that when he voted against the proposals, but IMG then clarified that it wasn't how it would operate ?

Wasn't this issue the reason why some clubs abstained in the voting? I thought somebody said that IMG wouldn't give them a clear answer.

I could definitely be misremembering though.

[Toby Chopra]

Just now, Saint Toppy said:

Where have IMG said that one B grade club can only replace another B grade club if their overall points are higher within the B banding ?

I thought that guy from Keighly claimed that when he voted against the proposals, but IMG then clarified that it wasn't how it would operate ?

I'll try and dig it out, but we had a big debate about this when the initial criteria was released, and it was clarified that indeed there's no automatic promotion for the top graded championship club. They'll only go up if they're graded in the top 12, which is hard - but not impossible - if you're not in SL.

[Nothus]

It's the reason why Featherstone voted against:

 

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/featherstone-rovers-explain-img-voting-26732248

[Toby Chopra]

8 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Not sure that 1 shiny new stand is going to score all the much more for Wakey TBH. While it may then satisfy some of the criteria for corporate, media etc. the increase in seat numbers then means they have to fill them otherwise they start losing out on the utilisation scoring.

Sure, I was just more giving a theoretical example where the bonus for finishing 11th Vs 12th could easily be overcome by other scores.

In the specific case Cas's ground does seem to fail to score on several measures, particularly on numbers of seats, boxes etc,  but Wakey would have to increase crowds in their improved ground to fully make it count.

[Saint Toppy]

Another criteria that nobody seems to have picked up on yet is the Stadium Primacy. As I read it clubs like Wigan, Hull, Huddersfield & possibly even Salford & Leigh wont score anything under the primacy guidelines ?

As an aside it was also good to see that if you want a Cat A then you MUST run a womens team as well. What I can't seem to find though is a copy of the RFL's current "Talent & Pathway" guidelines which it also says Cat A & B clubs must comply with. Presumably this means they must run teams at all the junior grades ? Does it also mean having a Reserve grade team ??

[The Phantom Horseman]

16 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:

Err yes there is. IMG have clearly stated that the lowest placed Grade B SL club will be replaced by the highest placed Grade B Championship club.

 

You got a link for that? Goes against everything I've seen.

Forget the concept of promotion and relegation. At the end of each year, the 12 teams with the most IMG points form SL the following year. In theory, the team that finishes 5th in the Championship could replace the team that finished 9th in SL, for instance. The was the scoring is set up though, it's more likely the same 12 teams will stay in SL most years.

[Dovster]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Think 8 for B, and 15 for A

I'd assess Hull KR as around 11 or 12 based on the greater detail released this week, by way of a benchmark. Seems about right too. There's good signposts in this model to nudge clubs in the right direction, maybe Rovers could scrape an A in 3 years time if they worked really hard. That's probably how it should be. 

I don't know if you'll know ths one or not but you seem very knowledgeable on the subject.

Could a grade B club with 8 points be promoted and a grade B club with 14 points be relegated from SL?

[MattSantos]

I really do enjoy the overall theme and objective of this. I really do.

However, i strongly feel that if you win the championship and you're the same grade as clubs in the SL, you should be promoted.

Simple

[Toby Chopra]

14 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

I'll try and dig it out, but we had a big debate about this when the initial criteria was released, and it was clarified that indeed there's no automatic promotion for the top graded championship club. They'll only go up if they're graded in the top 12, which is hard - but not impossible - if you're not in SL.

This is the March 9 release, which has a table which shows that SL will comprise the As and the highest graded Bs. This was confirmed in the club consultations which is why a small number voted against it.

https://www.rugby-league.com/uploads/docs/IMG & Rugby League Grading Criteria[81].pdf

[The Blues Ox]

Yeah SL is simply made up of the highest graded teams. There will be no promotion for any Championship team unless they score higher than the worse graded SL team.

 

As a side note I think it was mentioned about the Women's team having to be in SL to be able to attain Cat A which was part of the thinking for Leigh stealing another team and claiming them as their own.

Edited July 5, 2023 by The Blues Ox

[Toby Chopra]

11 minutes ago, Dovster said:

I don't know if you'll know ths one or not but you seem very knowledgeable on the subject.

Could a grade B club with 8 points be promoted and a grade B club with 14 points be relegated from SL?

At the same time? No.

As phantom horseman says above, we need to forget the concept of promotion and relegation, and think more about which are the 12 highest graded clubs each year for SL.

I know some can't abide this, but this is what the clubs voted for with a clear majority in each division. They're going in with their eyes open.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Toby Chopra