life below super league

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Anita Bath said:

Yes this proposal would lead to many blow outs week after week. The gap between top of championship and bottom of league 1 is vast. Should Oldham go up to the championship this season and newcastle and barrow come down to league 1 Rochdale will be the only Lancashire team in league 1. So much for the M62 corridor…at least west of the Pennines.

 

I take it you're counting Swinton as Cheshire on the grounds that they play south of the Mersey these days.

[Anita Bath]

59 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Leaving aside Barrow being in Lancashire in exactly the same way as Rochdale (ie both are in the traditional county, but not the current local authority of the same name):

If two of Dewsbury/Hunslet/Doncaster get promoted and no Yorkshire team are relegated, then the remaining one of Dewsbury/Hunslet/Doncaster would be the only Yorkshire club in L1.

Agree re Barrow, but hardly part of the M62 corridor. Point is we have a large proportion of our games outside the traditional areas of the game, much larger than the other two ‘divisions’. With fewer local games, that tend to attract bigger crowds to help ‘subsidise’ the costs of those more remote games.

[Anita Bath]

9 minutes ago, Griff said:

I take it you're counting Swinton as Cheshire on the grounds that they play south of the Mersey these days.

Swinton arent in league 1. Id love to be playing them instead of say London.

[Liverpool Rover]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

So 34 league games, is that it? Plus cup ties and play-offs. Far too many. We're not going to go back to more than one game a week. The game's changed. We're more aware of player safety.

I don't understand why you say part-time clubs need to play more games to make ends meet. Few of them own their own ground. Less games means less wages, less rent, fewer buses - to mention just three costs - less losses, less cash to be chipped in by the club's backers.  Maybe 9 games is what League clubs want. Even before West Wales pulled out, they were only playing ten home games. They could have had loop fixtures and started in February but they chose not to.

So carry on with your fixture plans but don't expect any to be taken up by the RFL any time soon.  Apart from owt else, we'll be doing what IMG want for the next few years.

It doesn't necessarily mean that it would have to be a full 34 game league season, but there is nowhere near the strength in depth for a league of that many teams.

[Griff]

6 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

It doesn't necessarily mean that it would have to be a full 34 game league season, but there is nowhere near the strength in depth for a league of that many teams.

True - but not playing every other club home and away would be criticised.

We play too many games. Fact.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Griff

[The Blues Ox]

13 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Well you can start with scrapping Dual Reg

I would do it in a heartbeat just to hear all the Super League teams start whinging about how are they supposed to develop their talent. Here is an idea don't sign every kid who has set foot on a rugby field so some may filter down in to the lower leagues which is probably a standard more realistic to them and they stand a better chance of staying in the game.

[sentoffagain2]

1 minute ago, The Blues Ox said:

I would do it in a heartbeat just to hear all the Super League teams start whinging about how are they supposed to develop their talent. Here is an idea don't sign every kid who has set foot on a rugby field so some may filter down in to the lower leagues which is probably a standard more realistic to them and they stand a better chance of staying in the game.

  Agree Oxy let the younger players find their feet playing in The Championship or League 1.Sitting in the stands watching games is no good for development .Only way is playing every or most weeks.Once the closed shop restarts teams will have no need for dual reg or loan players and very little ambition to improve.Only in Rugby League can we mismanage running it time and time again.

[Ovenden Grunt]

15 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

I hear you. Imagine how Mark Campbell has felt in recent years having gone to the lengths of dismantling the stands at Scarborough, transporting them bit by bit, reconstructing them with the help of a group of volunteer fans (many of them pensioners), transforming the ground, then putting loads of his own money into creating a consistently competitive team, building his own training centre (used by Wakefield for many years) whilst the likes of Wakefield and Castleford have continued to mop up the Sky money and (until very recently in Wakefield's case) done nothing about their crumbling stadia.

Spot on️

[Mumby Magic]

To the OP. You'll have the same scenarios but within one league. 2x12 is the only thing I'd change. Don't know why it went to 14 tbh.

[Derwent Parker]

20 hours ago, south yorkshire said:

I am in favour with IMG  grading. If my team sheffield won the championship i know they wouldn't be promoted. Which is fair our stadium is miles off super league requirement as are many in the lower leagues. What i would suggest that if the team who wins the championship doesn't score a grade similar to the team who finishes bottom of super then that team should not be promoted. Instead that team so be given some kind of cash reward or grant to spend money on up grading facilities in order to help them improve and advance there prospects for next time.    

Yes - why not give them the money the relegated SL team would have got [the parachute payment]?

[Derwent Parker]

3 hours ago, south yorkshire said:

Life below super league is so tough for clubs take the championship 14 teams about 8 spending money they probably haven't got to try and get to the promise land while the other six are spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship and avoid the nightmare that is league one. League one traditional are clubs are probably spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one. When they do get out they hit another wall of having to spend more money just to try and avoid going back down to league one. Championship and league one is not working for any team. The answer is simple one league of 24 playing each other once and your nearest neighbours twice .24 game season 12 home 12 away top 8 make playoffs. Yes you still have clubs spending money trying to get into top 8 and super league but not a disaster if you don't make it. Teams would have more time to develop younger players as threat of relegation would be removed. Teams can build slowly. It would I think be more appealing for a tv deal with more games and derbies to chose from. The 1895 cup rebranded as the championship cup still play final at Wembley.8 groups of three with group games doubling up with championship games to reduce fixture list. Top team in each group of three make quarter finals with group games doubling as league games they would be no dead rubbers. So that's 24 league round plus 3 championship play off rounds and 3 championship cup round 30 games. Plus the challenge cup where most teams could expect to play at least two games. 1 st round proper I have 16 amateur teams join the 24 championship teams. The 20 winners would then be joined by the 12 super league sides in round 2 the last 32 . Then straight knock out from there.                

I totally agree with the top half of your idea.  Its just the format that needs sorted .

Back in 2021 Martyn Sadler proposed a system that I thought fixed most of the problems - but was blown out of the water by all the Super League fans and one or two of the ambitious Champ fans who think they will make SL.

Now that IMG are all but stopping P&R with the grading system, FEV should get up this year at expense of Cas/Wak etc.

But after that it wont be the same IMO. And will probably end up a closed shop in reality - though not officially, someone may be lucky and could find another Mr Beaumont.

So we could look at the same plan but without the SL element - which was the stumbling block because it included the taboo subject of SL teams sharing their money!!!!

Mr Sadlers plan was 6 regional leagues of 6 [36 teams] - now ignoring SL we have 24 teams which would be 4 leagues of 6.

So it still works.

See link below - but ignore SL

A future structure for Rugby League competitions – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

League Structure modified by me

For example Western, Central, Eastern and Southern - Everyone on here will have an opinion on which teams would be in which conference so to stop extra arguments i wont list them. But ideally to start with they would each have 3 of the top half of Champ and the rest from L1 [different league numbers so wont work perfectly] 

Initially there would be a team or two in wrong conference but nothings perfect after all we did have a Canadian team once?

Under this structure each team will play 22 league fixtures as follows, before play-offs to determine the Grand Finalists.

Five matches at home and five away against each of the other teams in its Conference, giving ten matches in total.

MAINLY DERBY MATCHES

Another 12 matches as follows:

To create fixtures, in each Conference the teams will be ranked one to six in the order in which they finished the previous season.

Team 1 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2  in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 2 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 3 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 4 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 5 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 6 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

This structure means that when clubs play opponents from the other Conferences, they are likely more often than not to be matched reasonably evenly.

ADD Magic/Summer Bash = 23 Matches Total

If required Loop fixtures could be added by teams 1 and 2 v 3 and 5 and 6 v 4 etc

THIS SHOULD HELP WITH STOPPING THE ONE SIDED MATCHES

Keep Challenge cup as a knockout but SL teams MUST be entered in the last 32.

Again its ok for SL teams complaining about too many games and blow out scores - but to the teams only receiving 20K CF instead of the SL 1.5 million there are quite a few teams would accept getting stuffed at Saints etc to get a good payday.

4 Championship Conf winners

Top team in each conf in playoffs for Championship Winners and SL [highly unlikely] unless gradings allow 

Therefore

1 No P&R required

2 No spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one

3 No spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship

4 H & A for all teams unless Magic

5 Limited Blow out scores

6 More Trophies?

7 More Derby Matches = Better income

8 More Games for L1 = better income

9 The own Conf matches will / could mean lower teams get to play some bigger teams = Better income

 

[EggFace]

27 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

I totally agree with the top half of your idea.  Its just the format that needs sorted .

Back in 2021 Martyn Sadler proposed a system that I thought fixed most of the problems - but was blown out of the water by all the Super League fans and one or two of the ambitious Champ fans who think they will make SL.

Now that IMG are all but stopping P&R with the grading system, FEV should get up this year at expense of Cas/Wak etc.

But after that it wont be the same IMO. And will probably end up a closed shop in reality - though not officially, someone may be lucky and could find another Mr Beaumont.

So we could look at the same plan but without the SL element - which was the stumbling block because it included the taboo subject of SL teams sharing their money!!!!

Mr Sadlers plan was 6 regional leagues of 6 [36 teams] - now ignoring SL we have 24 teams which would be 4 leagues of 6.

So it still works.

See link below - but ignore SL

A future structure for Rugby League competitions – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

League Structure modified by me

For example Western, Central, Eastern and Southern - Everyone on here will have an opinion on which teams would be in which conference so to stop extra arguments i wont list them. But ideally to start with they would each have 3 of the top half of Champ and the rest from L1 [different league numbers so wont work perfectly] 

Initially there would be a team or two in wrong conference but nothings perfect after all we did have a Canadian team once?

Under this structure each team will play 22 league fixtures as follows, before play-offs to determine the Grand Finalists.

Five matches at home and five away against each of the other teams in its Conference, giving ten matches in total.

MAINLY DERBY MATCHES

Another 12 matches as follows:

To create fixtures, in each Conference the teams will be ranked one to six in the order in which they finished the previous season.

Team 1 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2  in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 2 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 3 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 4 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 5 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 6 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

This structure means that when clubs play opponents from the other Conferences, they are likely more often than not to be matched reasonably evenly.

ADD Magic/Summer Bash = 23 Matches Total

If required Loop fixtures could be added by teams 1 and 2 v 3 and 5 and 6 v 4 etc

THIS SHOULD HELP WITH STOPPING THE ONE SIDED MATCHES

Keep Challenge cup as a knockout but SL teams MUST be entered in the last 32.

Again its ok for SL teams complaining about too many games and blow out scores - but to the teams only receiving 20K CF instead of the SL 1.5 million there are quite a few teams would accept getting stuffed at Saints etc to get a good payday.

4 Championship Conf winners

Top team in each conf in playoffs for Championship Winners and SL [highly unlikely] unless gradings allow 

Therefore

1 No P&R required

2 No spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one

3 No spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship

4 H & A for all teams unless Magic

5 Limited Blow out scores

6 More Trophies?

7 More Derby Matches = Better income

8 More Games for L1 = better income

9 The own Conf matches will / could mean lower teams get to play some bigger teams = Better income

 

And we can have different competition's like Divisional, County,Inter County, Provincial, Inter- Provincial and All England Minor's Rugby League Grand Final and All England Senior Rugby League Grand Final.

[Derwent Parker]

15 hours ago, overtheborder said:

Apologies for my ignorance on this, but what's the difference between dual reg and SL clubs essentially loaning out up-and-coming youngsters? I can understand a bit of opposition to the concept of filling a Champ/L1 side with a load of Leeds youngsters for example, but isn't that what would happen anyway one way or another in a limited player pool? I'm almost certainly missing something so it's a genuine question.

Well if you take a player on loan - then that player should be in your squad for the duration of the loan.

Dual Reg is match by match.

In the past we had DR players lined up for matches but taken back at less than 24 hrs notice - it disrupts the team/squad planning.

Plus it is unfair when it is week by week as it disrupts the league.

A few year ago cannot remember which year but pre covid - We played v Doncaster who had a DR agreement with Hull FC.

In our match they had a strong Hull FC influence [cant remember result we may have won or lost that wasn't the problem] but the following week Hull FC took back all its DR players and Doncaster were beaten by one of our rivals who they should have beaten and I remember this did have an effect on the table.

If those same players had been on loan they would still be able to play and probably not have lost that match against our rivals

Now this is in no way a complaint against Hull or Doncaster because it happens all over the place - its the system that is wrong. And the Hull/Doncaster mentioned above is just an example.

You are never going to bring young players in and build settled/strong squads when you have to bring in DR players randomly to help SL teams give their players a run out.

And imagine you have a local kid on fringe of your first team waiting for that opportunity to get a game who has been kept out because the senior player is having a good run and suddenly the opportunity arises due to injury or ban and he misses out on that one chance cos a DR player lands for that one game - never to be seen again.

that is how some players end up going back to their junior clubs

[overtheborder]

4 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Well if you take a player on loan - then that player should be in your squad for the duration of the loan.

Dual Reg is match by match.

In the past we had DR players lined up for matches but taken back at less than 24 hrs notice - it disrupts the team/squad planning.

Plus it is unfair when it is week by week as it disrupts the league.

A few year ago cannot remember which year but pre covid - We played v Doncaster who had a DR agreement with Hull FC.

In our match they had a strong Hull FC influence [cant remember result we may have won or lost that wasn't the problem] but the following week Hull FC took back all its DR players and Doncaster were beaten by one of our rivals who they should have beaten and I remember this did have an effect on the table.

If those same players had been on loan they would still be able to play and probably not have lost that match against our rivals

Now this is in no way a complaint against Hull or Doncaster because it happens all over the place - its the system that is wrong. And the Hull/Doncaster mentioned above is just an example.

You are never going to bring young players in and build settled/strong squads when you have to bring in DR players randomly to help SL teams give their players a run out.

And imagine you have a local kid on fringe of your first team waiting for that opportunity to get a game who has been kept out because the senior player is having a good run and suddenly the opportunity arises due to injury or ban and he misses out on that one chance cos a DR player lands for that one game - never to be seen again.

that is how some players end up going back to their junior clubs

Thanks for the reply, that makes a lot of sense - from what you say and what I hear elsewhere it seems to be the clubs themselves who are pro dual reg, with the fans not so much (although I'm sure certain clubs will be doing it more than others). Seems to be one of those things that could easily be gotten rid of if the clubs wanted it enough.

[Mumby Magic]

5 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

I totally agree with the top half of your idea.  Its just the format that needs sorted .

Back in 2021 Martyn Sadler proposed a system that I thought fixed most of the problems - but was blown out of the water by all the Super League fans and one or two of the ambitious Champ fans who think they will make SL.

Now that IMG are all but stopping P&R with the grading system, FEV should get up this year at expense of Cas/Wak etc.

But after that it wont be the same IMO. And will probably end up a closed shop in reality - though not officially, someone may be lucky and could find another Mr Beaumont.

So we could look at the same plan but without the SL element - which was the stumbling block because it included the taboo subject of SL teams sharing their money!!!!

Mr Sadlers plan was 6 regional leagues of 6 [36 teams] - now ignoring SL we have 24 teams which would be 4 leagues of 6.

So it still works.

See link below - but ignore SL

A future structure for Rugby League competitions – TotalRL.com | Rugby League Express | Rugby League World

League Structure modified by me

For example Western, Central, Eastern and Southern - Everyone on here will have an opinion on which teams would be in which conference so to stop extra arguments i wont list them. But ideally to start with they would each have 3 of the top half of Champ and the rest from L1 [different league numbers so wont work perfectly] 

Initially there would be a team or two in wrong conference but nothings perfect after all we did have a Canadian team once?

Under this structure each team will play 22 league fixtures as follows, before play-offs to determine the Grand Finalists.

Five matches at home and five away against each of the other teams in its Conference, giving ten matches in total.

MAINLY DERBY MATCHES

Another 12 matches as follows:

To create fixtures, in each Conference the teams will be ranked one to six in the order in which they finished the previous season.

Team 1 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2  in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 2 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 1, 2 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 3 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 4 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 3,4 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 5 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

Team 6 in each Conference will play H & A  against Teams 5, 6 in each of the other 3 Conf's.

This structure means that when clubs play opponents from the other Conferences, they are likely more often than not to be matched reasonably evenly.

ADD Magic/Summer Bash = 23 Matches Total

If required Loop fixtures could be added by teams 1 and 2 v 3 and 5 and 6 v 4 etc

THIS SHOULD HELP WITH STOPPING THE ONE SIDED MATCHES

Keep Challenge cup as a knockout but SL teams MUST be entered in the last 32.

Again its ok for SL teams complaining about too many games and blow out scores - but to the teams only receiving 20K CF instead of the SL 1.5 million there are quite a few teams would accept getting stuffed at Saints etc to get a good payday.

4 Championship Conf winners

Top team in each conf in playoffs for Championship Winners and SL [highly unlikely] unless gradings allow 

Therefore

1 No P&R required

2 No spending money they haven't got trying to get out of league one

3 No spending money they haven't got trying to stay in the championship

4 H & A for all teams unless Magic

5 Limited Blow out scores

6 More Trophies?

7 More Derby Matches = Better income

8 More Games for L1 = better income

9 The own Conf matches will / could mean lower teams get to play some bigger teams = Better income

 

Excuse me for being ignorant but is this not an example of overthinking of something that doesn't really need changing? To that extent anyway.

[meast]

My eyes hurt!

What did it say?

Edited August 2, 2023 by meast

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, Griff said:

True - but not playing every other club home and away would be criticised.

We play too many games. Fact.

take it your team aint in L1 then?

[Derwent Parker]

1 hour ago, Mumby Magic said:

Excuse me for being ignorant but is this not an example of overthinking of something that doesn't really need changing? To that extent anyway.

Well your team fell from the SL heights to Championship - if it happens again and nothing changes and you end up in L1?

You wont be saying that!

[Griff]

29 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:

take it your team aint in L1 then?

L1 clubs aren't looking for more games - that's obvious.

[JT RL]

Division 1 major = 10 teams

Division 1 minor = 8 teams

Division 2 prime = 10 teams

Division 2 minor = 8 teams

 

Div 1 (Big 10) .. play each other h/a .. 18 games: plus Div 1 minor once .. 8 games. 26 games. No play offs. Bottom team drops into Div 1 minor. Winner plays in the grand final. 
 

Div 1 minor .. play each other h/a .. 14 games: plus 10 games. 24 game season. 1 plays 2 for the promotion slot. Bottom team drops to Div 2. 
 

Same pattern for Div 2, major & minor.

Cup. Div 1 minor join a round earlier than Div 1 major. Last 16 at a neutral venue (Newcastle) .. game Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Cup winner plays in the grand Final.

Season start Boxing Day. Finishes at the start of September.

 

- because. Loop fixtures and lower play offs/ cup semi’s lead to fatigue.

- because most teams in champ can be competitive in one game against super league teams. If the are scheduled, it allows clubs to maximise the fixture.

- because the structure encourages localism, without diluting the rigour of the League & cup programme 

- because it frees up some space for internationals

- because it reduces work load for stars, which should feed through to the national team to become competitive with the Aussies

[DEANO]

Spending money they haven’t got doesn’t just apply to league 1 and the championship 

[Mumby Magic]

6 hours ago, Derwent Parker said:

Well your team fell from the SL heights to Championship - if it happens again and nothing changes and you end up in L1?

You wont be saying that!

Erm they did.

[Wolford6]

On 01/08/2023 at 21:11, overtheborder said:

I think that's all well and good except for me, thinking in terms of SL games (albeit there are more teams in this proposed system), I'd hate to lose regular season games that have historically been blockbusters (Wigan vs Leeds being an obvious one). I'm sure there'll be examples from the Champ and L1 that ring true here too.

My feelings are that the Conferences should be below Superleague ... a merger of League 1 and the Championship. It would give youngsters more of a chance to develop at a reasonable pace.

[Derwent Parker]

10 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

Erm they did.

correct - i miswrote the quote i meant if it happened again and you were stuck there now