War of the Roses (2023 Thread)

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Have we softened then in your opinion Phil, years ago I coached junior teams at County level and Yorkshire teams were considered the arch enemy, to put on that jersey with the Red Rose meant everything to the lads.

Well it is only my opinion but yes, we always have some good banter, here is a good example, but not the intense dislike and hatred which adds that real edge down under 

[Tides Of History]

It’s a question that comes back again and again. When I heard that IMG were considering a revival I looked at what went wrong last time.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/british-state-of-origin-failed-but-should-img-revive-it

Here was my conclusion

“What would the purpose of the War of the Roses be?

If it is a trial for potential England selection, would there be enough interest from supporters to sustain it and build it each season?

Would coaches ensure that players were made available?

Would players be motivated without the financial rewards that are available in Australia?

Would it attract a new sponsor that wasn’t already invested in the game?

The market suggests, as it has done since the 1980s, that the number of people interested in any mid-season international – whether it is  France, British Origin, the Exiles or the All Stars – is between 6 and 10,000.

Do IMG have ambitions to move beyond that?

Would they be satisfied if the ‘War of the Roses’ achieved the same attendance as the England v France game at Warrington this year? 

The debate around the revival of British State of Origin, in whatever format it takes place, throws up as many questions as it does solutions to the games problems.

And if the ‘War of the Roses’ is to become a permanent fixture in the rugby league calendar, it will need something that we have never been able to implement before: a long term strategy for growth”.

[JM2010]

It would draw a crowd at least as big as the mid season international against France but be much more of a competitive game. If it is promoted and built up as a big event then I’m sure it would attract a decent crowd. My only reservation is what to do with the players who aren’t from those 2 places. 
If it was this season then who would Morgan Knowles and KPP play for?

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

It would draw a crowd at least as big as the mid season international against France but be much more of a competitive game. If it is promoted and built up as a big event then I’m sure it would attract a decent crowd. My only reservation is what to do with the players who aren’t from those 2 places. 
If it was this season then who would Morgan Knowles and KPP play for?

London had players turn out for both. There didn’t seem to be any particular reason for it.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, JM2010 said:

It would draw a crowd at least as big as the mid season international against France but be much more of a competitive game. If it is promoted and built up as a big event then I’m sure it would attract a decent crowd. My only reservation is what to do with the players who aren’t from those 2 places. 
If it was this season then who would Morgan Knowles and KPP play for?

Agreed that maybe the minor counties (sorry) could have a get together.

As a proud Lancastrian I would and did support this concept of the roses.

The only problem I see is that Lancashire has been so successful that it ate itself both west and east to form new identities.

I like the idea of beating Yorkshire but it will take some work to get St Helens fans and Wigan fans to wholeheartedly want each other’s players to do well.

Seems to be less of a problem in Yorkshire even with the internal rivalries mainly centred around relations with Leeds.

As far as comparing it to France-England then I am coming around to the idea that War of the Roses would be better as a proving ground.

Its not clear cut though and I would like to see more England matches generally and this blocks that.

A tough one for me.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[idrewthehaggis]

The issue with a Roses game for me is that the necessary levels of enthusiasm lies mostly on the right hand side of the Pennines. With very little beside the Irish Sea.

Identity in modern "historic" Lancashire tends to be more localized in the towns or cities ie Mancs, etc.  The desire appears one sided in my opinion.

Second, for many it would feel insular and a retreat to pre-SL days.

I won't fully dismiss the idea. At Academy, u-19s et al, even say Championship level it has merits. Even as a low key England trial game, it would be fine. Just don't see the advantages at senior/tier one/SL level.

However my feelings are very much different about an annual Bastille Day England (Knights) against France challenge match lodged on the continent. That should be a given.

Edited August 15, 2023 by idrewthehaggis

[The Future is League]

On 13/08/2023 at 23:56, sam4731 said:

I know, I know...here we go again, the annual origin thread but here me out. There's been lots of talk of mid season internationals recently and we've tried everything else. The CNA/Exiles is a naff idea and playing France means a weakened France team.

Isn't it worth just having a go. I know there might be certain drawbacks but I think it's worth rolling the dice.

We have a roses game at almost every other level of the game, why not super league?

OK go ahead, unleash your worst.

No no a thousand times NO.

[Damien]

Not withstanding all the other issues with the Roses game I think it would be a real low quality game, somewhat below the standard and intensity of 2 top SL teams playing each other. It would not be a step up like in SOO and if we aren't even going to get a more intense game than what SL can provide then it seems even more pointless to me.

[sam4731]

4 hours ago, Tides Of History said:

It’s a question that comes back again and again. When I heard that IMG were considering a revival I looked at what went wrong last time.

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/british-state-of-origin-failed-but-should-img-revive-it

Here was my conclusion

“What would the purpose of the War of the Roses be?

If it is a trial for potential England selection, would there be enough interest from supporters to sustain it and build it each season?

Would coaches ensure that players were made available?

Would players be motivated without the financial rewards that are available in Australia?

Would it attract a new sponsor that wasn’t already invested in the game?

The market suggests, as it has done since the 1980s, that the number of people interested in any mid-season international – whether it is  France, British Origin, the Exiles or the All Stars – is between 6 and 10,000.

Do IMG have ambitions to move beyond that?

Would they be satisfied if the ‘War of the Roses’ achieved the same attendance as the England v France game at Warrington this year? 

The debate around the revival of British State of Origin, in whatever format it takes place, throws up as many questions as it does solutions to the games problems.

And if the ‘War of the Roses’ is to become a permanent fixture in the rugby league calendar, it will need something that we have never been able to implement before: a long term strategy for growth”.

For me the main reason to stage this game would be that we have tried everything else and nothing has worked. The mid season international break is an opportunity that we haven't grasped with any purpose. Why not try this is the modern age?

[17 stone giant]

Yorkshire v France, Lancashire v Wales

Yorkshire v Wales, Lancashire v France

Yorkshire v Lancashire, Wales v France

[Mathius Hellwege]

2 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

Yorkshire v France, Lancashire v Wales

Yorkshire v Wales, Lancashire v France

Yorkshire v Lancashire, Wales v France

You need Cumbria and all the other counties or a combination thereoff

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

7 hours ago, gingerjon said:

London had players turn out for both. There didn’t seem to be any particular reason for it.

First York's/Lancs club they played for 

[south yorkshire]

On 13/08/2023 at 14:56, sam4731 said:

I know, I know...here we go again, the annual origin thread but here me out. There's been lots of talk of mid season internationals recently and we've tried everything else. The CNA/Exiles is a naff idea and playing France means a weakened France team.

Isn't it worth just having a go. I know there might be certain drawbacks but I think it's worth rolling the dice.

We have a roses game at almost every other level of the game, why not super league?

OK go ahead, unleash your worst.

I would create two teams team one The Super League LIONS (England players playing in super league ) verse The super league STARS ( all other nationalities playing in super league) Super League Lions could play in a Great Britain style kit. While the Stars play in a navy blue kit with stars on. The number of stars represent how many different nationality players are playing for the Stars. 3 match series. Give the series to channel four. Players would receive caps for appearances.   

[sam4731]

Just now, south yorkshire said:

I would create two teams team one The Super League LIONS (England players playing in super league ) verse The super league STARS ( all other nationalities playing in super league) Super League Lions could play in a Great Britain style kit. While the Stars play in a navy blue kit with stars on. The number of stars represent how many different nationality players are playing for the Stars. 3 match series. Give the series to channel four. Players would receive caps for appearances.   

So the Combined Nations Allstars game?

[south yorkshire]

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

So the Combined Nations Allstars game?

yes but rebranded SL LIONS V SL STARS 

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

So the Combined Nations Allstars game?

 

[sam4731]

Just now, south yorkshire said:

yes but rebranded SL LIONS V SL STARS 

 

Who are they getting caps for? Are you suggesting that we make these two sides test teams?

[south yorkshire]

1 minute ago, sam4731 said:

Who are they getting caps for? Are you suggesting that we make these two sides test teams?

We create caps for the two teams games would sit just under test match status, You could even have SL Stars v Tourist as a warm up match before playing England.    

[sam4731]

Just now, south yorkshire said:

We create caps for the two teams games would sit just under test match status, You could even have SL Stars v Tourist as a warm up match before playing England.    

So the two teams will be world ranked and eligible to qualify for World cups? I can't decide if this is all a joke to be honest.

[JM2010]

Maybe if Magic Weekend was dropped and replaced with an International weekend then all players could be available and not withdrawn like what happened with France last time. 
It would be one fixture less for all clubs so the International games wouldn’t be any riskier for injuries than if they were playing at Magic for their clubs as it wouldn’t be an extra game just a replacement of the club fixtures 

[south yorkshire]

5 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

So the two teams will be world ranked and eligible to qualify for World cups? I can't decide if this is all a joke to be honest.

no i never said that . 

[RigbyLuger]

We saw in the World Cup that England, even playing Greece, got a decent crowd in Sheffield. Internationals are easy to sell to the general public, YvL doesn't, and I don't see what has changed in the 20 years since the last ones, and now we've got more talk of player welfare and such. A England cap still means something.

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

First York's/Lancs club they played for 

Dom Peters played for Lancashire having previously played for Greenwich, London Skolars and London Broncos. No Lancashire club at all.

Chris Thorman had, as per your suggestion, played for a Yorkshire club so presumably that's why he played for Yorkshire despite not being born there and beginning his junior career in Newcastle.

[17 stone giant]

2 hours ago, Mathius Hellwege said:

You need Cumbria and all the other counties or a combination thereoff

Are there enough good players from Cumbria to form a team that can compete with the others?

What other counties do rugby league players come from?

 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Dom Peters played for Lancashire having previously played for Greenwich, London Skolars and London Broncos. No Lancashire club at all.

Chris Thorman had, as per your suggestion, played for a Yorkshire club so presumably that's why he played for Yorkshire despite not being born there and beginning his junior career in Newcastle.

It was a suggestion rather than a statement if fact 

[sam4731]

Summary of this thread:

1. My original suggestion

2. No no no no

3. Maybe

4. Include Wales/France/Cumbria/London/North East etc.

5. Could we populate those teams within enough good players?

Any advances?