Castleford stadium.

[Morris Wanchuk]

3 hours ago, phiggins said:

Cas also had a 6 year licensing period where some funds could be diverted to ground improvements did they not?

Good point, mistakes made at both Cas & Wakey. The situation now is that Trinity have managed to salvage something from the wreckage of Newmarket, Cas have probably now left it too late. 

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Slightly OT

BV has always had a number of advantages over both WR nad PO.

1: It's pitch was always full size, and flat. Now it's super flat and the height of modern pitch technology.

2: Despite what people think BV is the least hemmed in, even the West terrace is bigger than it appears.

3: It's on a main road with excellent access.

4: It's floodlighting is in a different class to the other two grounds, and has been since the 1990's, how Cass get away with those candlestick lamps amazes me. 

5: Trinity has way way way more corporate than both the other clubs combined. Function rooms, 4 covered x bars, 20 odd boxes, a couple of restaurants. Even have a big screen now.

6: Decent car parking compared to the others and an impressive reception.

Truth is that BV is the only ground in the WMDC that is capable of being revamped to A grade, at a cost that can be afforded. A few million will get you a steady tidy up, and maybe just scrape a grade A. Six million will get you two very basic but new stands for the West and south and will allow us to walk a Grade A.

Fev need a new flat full size pitch and new lighting as well as a revamp of the top end. That will get them a B+ for a few million. But will need more capacity for an A, and that will require a new main stand, similar to Trinity's new East stand. So in total you're talking 12 million.

Cas need to start again, there is not one part of the current ground that you'd call grade A. A new main stand, redeveloped terracing on the other sides. Lengthen the pitch, new lights and so on to get a grade A. I can't see much change from 20 million to get all that.

Realistically BV is the only WMDC club capable of developing it's ground within the next few years to reach IMG criteria. Not gloating, it's just the truth. Whether we do develop BV I couldn't say, all I'm saying is that Ellis probably could if he wanted to. I don't think the others can.

There wasn't one part of Belle Vue you could call grade A until the redevelopment either.

Surely Cas have as much room as Wakefield too. There is plenty of room at the Railway end to get a full length pitch if they want to. There is also plenty of room behind the main stand to build out too. If they get the new stand it's not like there are huge differences between the two.

[Kirmonds pouch]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

There wasn't one part of Belle Vue you could call grade A until the redevelopment either.

Surely Cas have as much room as Wakefield too. There is plenty of room at the Railway end to get a full length pitch if they want to. There is also plenty of room behind the main stand to build out too. If they get the new stand it's not like there are huge differences between the two.

Yes Cas do have more room, you are spot on, but it's not the right kind of room.

To use it you'd have to turn the ground 90 degrees. Would be brilliant, but essentially you would be be building as brand new stadium with loads of demolition cost, don't think you could salvage anything. A new 12k stadium by today's costs I'd estimate to be 25 million all in, depending on spec. Remembering the issues Cas have with flooding possibly adding to that. So my point stands, BV has the most usable space, that can be developed at a reasonable cost to the club, and fairly quickly. Think you could do similar with Fev, but againd the costs would be huge.

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

One final point of note , I would strongly disagree that New Craven Park is better than Welford Road . I think that all Leicester Tigers Fans would agree with me as well haha

That's a good point, now there's a great rugby ground. Been to a couple of matches there, not a fan of the 15 man game but like anything with a ball and some bars it can be a good afternoon out. 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Hull Kingston Bronco
Typo

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Yes Cas do have more room, you are spot on, but it's not the right kind of room.

To use it you'd have to turn the ground 90 degrees. Would be brilliant, but essentially you would be be building as brand new stadium with loads of demolition cost, don't think you could salvage anything. A new 12k stadium by today's costs I'd estimate to be 25 million all in, depending on spec. Remembering the issues Cas have with flooding possibly adding to that. So my point stands, BV has the most usable space, that can be developed at a reasonable cost to the club, and fairly quickly. Think you could do similar with Fev, but againd the costs would be huge.

Surely all they need to do is push the Railway end back and just replace it with basic terracing again on the cheap and when they redevelop the Main Stand then do it full length. I'm not sure why it has to be massively complicated or hugely different to what Wakey did with 2 stands and changing their pitch.

Obviously funding/planning issues aside.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Damien

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Cas need to start again, there is not one part of the current ground that you'd call grade A. A new main stand, redeveloped terracing on the other sides. Lengthen the pitch, new lights and so on to get a grade A. I can't see much change from 20 million to get all that.

To be fair the last set of plans I saw looked A-grade? The issue, as always, is the funding. I've never quite understood why none of the plans involved moving the Railway End back to allow a full pitch though

[Taffy Tiger]

43 minutes ago, Damien said:

There wasn't one part of Belle Vue you could call grade A until the redevelopment either.

Surely Cas have as much room as Wakefield too. There is plenty of room at the Railway end to get a full length pitch if they want to. There is also plenty of room behind the main stand to build out too. If they get the new stand it's not like there are huge differences between the two.

Hi Damien , Cas not just getting a new stand like Wakey though . With PP  all sides of ground are going to be upgraded . With the greatest of respect it will be (at least in appearance) better than Wakey at the moment . That said , I would agree that with your new owner's money, you would be able to improve BV to a higher standard , but when costing it you have to take into account the money you have already spent as well . 

You say 6M to upgrade your West and South stands , but that is on top of what you have already spent on your new stand as well . 

When Cas get PP they already have the funding available to upgrade all 4 sides of WR (including new stand) , and make it SL standard . We don't need to spend anything else . This will then be a like for like (costing wise) as to how BV is now and before any work on West and South Stands and the additional cost incurred.

I know we come at this form different angles , and others may not agree with me which is fine , but as things stand , and when PP is given for WR and WR is upgraded , if no more work has been done on BV , then WR will be much better that BV .

 

[Kirmonds pouch]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

Surely all they need to do is push the Railway end back and just replace it with basic terracing again on the cheap and when they redevelop the Main Stand then do it full length. I'm not sure why it has to be massively complicated or hugely different to what Wakey did with 2 stands and changing their pitch.

Obviously funding/planning issues aside.

You'd think so but it never seems to be on the radar, maybe there are access issues, so yes it's possible but you have to wonder why it was never done in the first place. But the point I'm making is that lengthening the pitch is not a cost Wakefield have to face, and they all add up. It's all about time and cost.

[Damien]

52 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Damien , Cas not just getting a new stand like Wakey though . With PP  all sides of ground are going to be upgraded . With the greatest of respect it will be (at least in appearance) better than Wakey at the moment . That said , I would agree that with your new owner's money, you would be able to improve BV to a higher standard , but when costing it you have to take into account the money you have already spent as well . 

You say 6M to upgrade your West and South stands , but that is on top of what you have already spent on your new stand as well . 

When Cas get PP they already have the funding available to upgrade all 4 sides of WR (including new stand) , and make it SL standard . We don't need to spend anything else . This will then be a like for like (costing wise) as to how BV is now and before any work on West and South Stands and the additional cost incurred.

I know we come at this form different angles , and others may not agree with me which is fine , but as things stand , and when PP is given for WR and WR is upgraded , if no more work has been done on BV , then WR will be much better that BV .

I'm not a Wakefield fan, just commenting on what I see.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Damien

[Taffy Tiger]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

I'm not a Wakefield fan, just commenting I'm what I see.

Ok , sorry Damien ,  that's fair enough . Hopefully I have been able to put a different perspective on things .

Edited October 30, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Kirmonds pouch]

11 minutes ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi Damien , Cas not just getting a new stand like Wakey though . With PP  all sides of ground are going to be upgraded . With the greatest of respect it will be (at least in appearance) better than Wakey at the moment . That said , I would agree that with your new owner's money, you would be able to improve BV to a higher standard , but when costing it you have to take into account the money you have already spent as well . 

You say 6M to upgrade your West and South stands , but that is on top of what you have already spent on your new stand as well . 

When Cas get PP they already have the funding available to upgrade all 4 sides of WR (including new stand) , and make it SL standard . We don't need to spend anything else . This will then be a like for like (costing wise) as to how BV is now and before any work on West and South Stands and the additional cost incurred.

I know we come at this form different angles , and others may not agree with me which is fine , but as things stand , and when PP is given for WR and WR is upgraded , if no more work has been done on BV , then WR will be much better that BV .

 

Cas are not getting anything yet, let alone enough to rebuild an entire stadium, you are being utterly unrealistic. Even if Cas get some money from the developer, sorry forgotten the name, it won't be anything like enough to redevelop four sides, not even close. Even if the developer pays up, they will give you at the most what the promised stadium would have cost in 2012 or whenever the plans was first costed. Prices have doubled since then, ten million buys you one stand, that's all. Cas will have to find the rest, as Trinity have had to, and that cost us a SL place, and we are still  only half there. You need to be realistic, it will take years to make WR an A grade.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Kirmonds pouch

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

44 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Cas will have to find the rest, as Trinity have had to, and that cost us a SL place, and we are still  only half there. You need to be realistic, it will take years to make WR an A grade.

I think this is a really interesting point though, hopefully Wakefield fans can see how prioritizing the development over the squad will be better in the long term? There's a pretty clear pathway for Trin to be an A-grade club, or at least a strong B, and so get back into Super League in a year or two. You'll have lost one year of watching Super League, but gained a much better 'platform' to build the club on even more in the future

This is what 'Framing the Future' and then 'Licensing' were meant to achieve, but didn't have the teeth to. 

[Taffy Tiger]

50 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Cas are not getting anything yet, let alone enough to rebuild an entire stadium, you are being utterly unrealistic. Even if Cas get some money from the developer, sorry forgotten the name, it won't be anything like enough to redevelop four sides, not even close. Even if the developer pays up, they will give you at the most what the promised stadium would have cost in 2012 or whenever the plans was first costed. Prices have doubled since then, ten million buys you one stand, that's all. Cas will have to find the rest, as Trinity have had to, and that cost us a SL place, and we are still  only half there. You need to be realistic, it will take years to make WR an A grade.

Hi KP , yeah you could be right , although it is only new roof and a tidy up for the Princess Street and WR End and a tidy up for Railway End , although some of new main stand will encroach on Railway End and WR End as well . All 4 stands will be upgraded but only main stand will be replaced . Artist plans are here https://castlefordtigers.com/article.php?id=8404 . Should look good though if it does go ahead

Edited October 30, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

49 minutes ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Cas are not getting anything yet, let alone enough to rebuild an entire stadium, you are being utterly unrealistic. Even if Cas get some money from the developer, sorry forgotten the name, it won't be anything like enough to redevelop four sides, not even close. Even if the developer pays up, they will give you at the most what the promised stadium would have cost in 2012 or whenever the plans was first costed. Prices have doubled since then, ten million buys you one stand, that's all. Cas will have to find the rest, as Trinity have had to, and that cost us a SL place, and we are still  only half there. You need to be realistic, it will take years to make WR an A grade.

The re-development of the Princess St and WR sides of the ground is basically putting new cladding on the stands so not too expensive a job, unless you have no money of course.......

[OMEGA]

4 hours ago, Kirmonds pouch said:

Slightly OT

BV has always had a number of advantages over both WR nad PO.

1: It's pitch was always full size, and flat. Now it's super flat and the height of modern pitch technology.

2: Despite what people think BV is the least hemmed in, even the West terrace is bigger than it appears.

3: It's on a main road with excellent access.

4: It's floodlighting is in a different class to the other two grounds, and has been since the 1990's, how Cass get away with those candlestick lamps amazes me. 

5: Trinity has way way way more corporate than both the other clubs combined. Function rooms, 4 covered x bars, 20 odd boxes, a couple of restaurants. Even have a big screen now.

6: Decent car parking compared to the others and an impressive reception.

Truth is that BV is the only ground in the WMDC that is capable of being revamped to A grade, at a cost that can be afforded. A few million will get you a steady tidy up, and maybe just scrape a grade A. Six million will get you two very basic but new stands for the West and south and will allow us to walk a Grade A.

Fev need a new flat full size pitch and new lighting as well as a revamp of the top end. That will get them a B+ for a few million. But will need more capacity for an A, and that will require a new main stand, similar to Trinity's new East stand. So in total you're talking 12 million.

Cas need to start again, there is not one part of the current ground that you'd call grade A. A new main stand, redeveloped terracing on the other sides. Lengthen the pitch, new lights and so on to get a grade A. I can't see much change from 20 million to get all that.

Realistically BV is the only WMDC club capable of developing it's ground within the next few years to reach IMG criteria. Not gloating, it's just the truth. Whether we do develop BV I couldn't say, all I'm saying is that Ellis probably could if he wanted to. I don't think the others can.

 

 

Good post!

It wouldn’t surprise me if Matt Ellis announces something for the West Terrace in the very near future, maybe after the squad is completed for the new season. Equally I think LED video perimeter advertising boards will appear around Belle Vue later in the season. It’s an easy IMG points addition to help take Wakefield past the 15 point mark and a Grade ‘A’ status.

As you say, neither Post Office Rd (tidy ground as it is) or Wheldon Rd have the potential to be redeveloped to the same extent as Belle Vue

[Kenilworth Tiger]

On 30/10/2023 at 16:03, Kirmonds pouch said:

Cas are not getting anything yet, let alone enough to rebuild an entire stadium, you are being utterly unrealistic. Even if Cas get some money from the developer, sorry forgotten the name, it won't be anything like enough to redevelop four sides, not even close. Even if the developer pays up, they will give you at the most what the promised stadium would have cost in 2012 or whenever the plans was first costed. Prices have doubled since then, ten million buys you one stand, that's all. Cas will have to find the rest, as Trinity have had to, and that cost us a SL place, and we are still  only half there. You need to be realistic, it will take years to make WR an A grade.

The plans are very clearly based on a £12.2 million investment in the stadium but dependent on the Junction 32 scheme being approved also. Clearly a few ifs and buts but the plans are in place based on a fairly decent budget

[Agbrigg]

On 30/10/2023 at 16:51, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I think this is a really interesting point though, hopefully Wakefield fans can see how prioritizing the development over the squad will be better in the long term? 

That's all fantasy peddled by the last two blokes running the club. Not one penny of theirs or the clubs money went into the Belle Vue upgrade. They were both skint and had quite a debt being accumulated. In fact there is a School of thought that they may have had to scrimp on the initial plans to get by. Removing the rain screens from the stand being one example. I know for a fact that Ellis has had to use his owns funds in order to finish the stand.

Anyhow we are quite lucky because we know have owners with sufficient resources to prioritise both the ground and the squad.

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Agbrigg said:

That's all fantasy peddled by the last two blokes running the club. Not one penny of theirs or the clubs money went into the Belle Vue upgrade. They were both skint and had quite a debt being accumulated. In fact there is a School of thought that they may have had to scrimp on the initial plans to get by. Removing the rain screens from the stand being one example. I know for a fact that Ellis has had to use his owns funds in order to finish the stand.

Anyhow we are quite lucky because we know have owners with sufficient resources to prioritise both the ground and the squad.

 

Ah well, fair enough. But like you say, at least now the club will have the resources to do the right things. 

[GUBRATS]

Just to put a bit of perspective on the 80K box ticking at Cas , it is to provide separate media and club official area's which I did the same work at Hilton Park ( which was required for ALL SL stadia ) 20 years ago 

[Kenilworth Tiger]

15 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Just to put a bit of perspective on the 80K box ticking at Cas , it is to provide separate media and club official area's which I did the same work at Hilton Park ( which was required for ALL SL stadia ) 20 years ago 

ANd still the grade was lower than Cas - go figure

Edited November 2, 2023 by Kenilworth Tiger

[phiggins]

8 minutes ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

ANd still the grade was lower than Cas - go figure

Still TBC last I heard.

[GUBRATS]

6 hours ago, Kenilworth Tiger said:

ANd still the grade was lower than Cas - go figure

Indeed 

[Taffy Tiger]

On 01/11/2023 at 20:34, GUBRATS said:

Just to put a bit of perspective on the 80K box ticking at Cas , it is to provide separate media and club official area's which I did the same work at Hilton Park ( which was required for ALL SL stadia ) 20 years ago 

Hi Gubrats , yes I think the 80k is more or less for this , although I believe the plastic seats making way for the padded seats in the main stand may be moved to Princess St stand (opposite main stand) and more seats added to bring total seating to the required 2,000 minimum . 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Taffy Tiger

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

On 30/10/2023 at 14:54, Morris Wanchuk said:

Good point, mistakes made at both Cas & Wakey. The situation now is that Trinity have managed to salvage something from the wreckage of Newmarket, Cas have probably now left it too late. 

The departure of Peter Box from Wakefield MDC was a massive positive for Trinity's project but probably adversely effected Castleford's. 

[Rarefrith]

Can I just add. Fev’s pitch is full size and has been since the redevelopment of the new stands. The pitch was extended. The slope is not as bad because of that either.