Fri 29th Sept: SL Elim: Hull KR v Leigh Leopards KO 20:00 (Sky)

[bratman]

4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You do realise last time they had 16 players rested ? , the lowest numbered shirt was 17 

Talking about the CC semi

[Leyther_Matt]

12 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yup. And then the point of the ball next to it, between Mellor’s arm and Hall’s hand, touching the floor.

The fact that the debate is about such a marginal slice of ”oooo, maybe Mellor had some fingers under the ball” is precisely why it was and is a try. The ref was close to hand, and awarded a try. It can’t be proven conclusively it wasn’t, so it remains a try. In many other sports, and us before, the benefit of any doubt quite rightly goes to the attacker. 

Nonsense. Not the right angle in the slightest but that wouldn’t suit. Look at it the other way, if the on-field guess was no try then would there have been enough evidence to award it?

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, M j M said:

Unless you go with benefit of the doubt to the defending team (which is never going to happen) that try would have been given under any VR system. The decision to give it was spot on.

The ref indicates a Try for Hall grounding the ball, the VR looks for a reason to agree with him to see if the ball touches the floor, he can't see one so he has to agree with the ref it's a try?

The system needs a good dose of looking at.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Harry Stottle

[M j M]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The ref indicates a Try for Hall grounding the ball, the VR looks for a reason to agree with him to see if the ball touches the floor, he can't see one so he has to agree with the ref it's a try?

The system needs a good dose of looking at.

They absolutely should go back to the original VR system.

But they would still have given that try. Once again, and we seem to have to say this every week, Leigh are not the victims of a conspiracy or error.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Nonsense. Not the right angle in the slightest but that wouldn’t suit. Look at it the other way, if the on-field guess was no try then would there have been enough evidence to award it?

I'd always award the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, whether mine or not (we won, so I'm hardly being salty about this example eh).

The ref thought it was a try, he was close and he makes those judgements for a living. If he'd sent it up as 'no try' you're right it may well not have been given, but not because there was any conclusive proof it wasn't a try, but if they couldn't find conclusive proof it was. I don't think that would be optimal for the game. In scenarios where there's doubt that can't be resolved definitively, award the try. 

[Leyther_Matt]

Didn’t ‘benefit of the doubt’ get scrapped years ago?

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

You do realise last time they had 16 players rested ? , the lowest numbered shirt was 17 

I'm desperately hoping the Wigan coaching team have as much hubris as many of their fans. Unfortunately though Peet is a good coach, and respects his opponents. 

We're peaking now, as are they to be fair. Hull KR are now back to full strength, barring Coote (but Walker's been immense) and perhaps Abdul not being fully fit (but "Schneider and Lewis" seem a better balanced pairing than our early season "Abdul running 90% plus Lewis as occasionally- contributing sidekick" combination). We've won 6 on the trot, and we're 2nd in the form table to Wigan and only on points difference. Home advantage makes Wigan small favourites, but this game should be a cracker. We've beaten them twice this season, it's very possible. 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

3 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Didn’t ‘benefit of the doubt’ get scrapped years ago?

Yes it did. Which is why we have the current model where the on-field ref makes a judgement, and that live judgement is only overturned with definitive proof. 

You can either have this model, or no "refs call" and benefit of the doubt to the attacking side. I prefer the latter but fine with the former. In both models, the try would obviously have been given. 

[StandOffHalf]

6 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I think we can put the Hall try debate to bed now. The ref gave it, he was in a good position, I don’t mind him checking it in such an important game but it’s hard to chalk it off when you see this. 

The arm is under it.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

57 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

The arm is under it.

You can say that with absolute certainty, and no room for doubt at all? Nah  

[hindsfordleyther79]

The Hall try, in my view, as a Leigh fan actually benefited Leigh. I don't believe Hall grounded it, however Joe Mellor was offside, he never got onside, and then entered the tackle and prevented a try. In my opinion a penalty try would have been correct with a yellow card for a professional foul.

Edited September 30, 2023 by hindsfordleyther79

[daz39]

RE the Hall try, regardless of whether we can see all the ball at some point every fan of every team will expect a try given in that situation be it for your own team or not, it's absolutely impossible to be 100% sure either way, it's a try a million times out of a million if we're being honest.

[bobbruce]

58 minutes ago, hindsfordleyther79 said:

The Hall try, in my view, as a Leigh fan actually benefited Leigh. I don't believe Hall grounded it, however Joe Mellor was offside, he never got onside, and then entered the tackle and prevented a try. In my opinion a penalty try would have been correct with a yellow card for a professional foul.

It would either be a penalty try or a yellow but not both. 

[EggFace]

9 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Thank you mate, well said 

We all know Rovers have their share of headcases as well, life would be a lot better without them

Leigh have had a great season, but with the thin squad there was always a risk you’d run out of gas. Rovers likewise couldn’t buy a win for a month or so in the middle of the season because of key players being injured, but we’re lucky they’re all returning for the back end. Just a coin toss that stuff sometimes eh. 

How to you stop the headcases coming or change the ways....why are they like that.

[Exiled Wiganer]

3 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

I'm desperately hoping the Wigan coaching team have as much hubris as many of their fans. Unfortunately though Peet is a good coach, and respects his opponents. 

We're peaking now, as are they to be fair. Hull KR are now back to full strength, barring Coote (but Walker's been immense) and perhaps Abdul not being fully fit (but "Schneider and Lewis" seem a better balanced pairing than our early season "Abdul running 90% plus Lewis as occasionally- contributing sidekick" combination). We've won 6 on the trot, and we're 2nd in the form table to Wigan and only on points difference. Home advantage makes Wigan small favourites, but this game should be a cracker. We've beaten them twice this season, it's very possible. 

 

I am happy to clarify what I thought was conveyed by my original post: the last one I was referring to was the last semi final - and we know how that one went. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

5 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

You do realise last time they had 16 players rested ? , the lowest numbered shirt was 17 

I was referring to the semi final. “That one” referred to the last game referred to at the end of the previous sentence “the semi”. 

[GUBRATS]

40 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I was referring to the semi final. “That one” referred to the last game referred to at the end of the previous sentence “the semi”. 

Fair enough , that wasn't " away to you "

[phiggins]

4 hours ago, Leyther_Matt said:

Didn’t ‘benefit of the doubt’ get scrapped years ago?

Benefit of the doubt only really applied to decisions where the VR couldn’t see the ball at all, because players or ref obstructed the view. The VR never lost sight of the ball for the Hall try, and doesn’t see it grounded. Am fairly certain that with no on field call at all that is given as a no try. 

Obviously if Mellor was offside then it renders the whole argument pointless as it should have been a penalty try, but it does raise questions of the VR protocols. 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, M j M said:

They absolutely should go back to the original VR system.

But they would still have given that try. Once again, and we seem to have to say this every week, Leigh are not the victims of a conspiracy or error.

I am not on about Leigh, or Leeds or anyone else, the system is simply not good and requires a good overhaul, or scrapping altogether and leave it simply to the ref.

[JohnM]

Not referencing the Leigh game in particular here, just looking at the big picture,  I do think the video ref has made the right decisions in the vast majority of cases.  It may not be perfect, but I reckon that without it, the arguments over decisions made (or not made) by refs  alone would result in even more numerous, divisive and forceful arguments.

Edited September 30, 2023 by JohnM

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, JohnM said:

Not referencing the Leigh game in particular here, just looking at the big picture,  I do think the video ref has made the right decisions in the vast majority of cases.  It may not be perfect, but I reckon that without it, the arguments over decisions made (or not made) by refs  alone would result in even more numerous, divisive and forceful arguments.

We need the VR. Rugby Union have a great example of the concept but let’s make it clear, it’s the VR who makes the decision on whether it’s a try or not. The ‘on field’ decisions need to be binned !

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

3 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

I am happy to clarify what I thought was conveyed by my original post: the last one I was referring to was the last semi final - and we know how that one went. 

Aye you’re right I can see the meaning now, sorry fella, my bad read

Looking forward to Saturday, will be a great game. 

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

We need the VR. Rugby Union have a great example of the concept but let’s make it clear, it’s the VR who makes the decision on whether it’s a try or not. The ‘on field’ decisions need to be binned !

The T or X just causes undue confusion or pressure on the V R , 2 examples in the last 2 weeks , 

[Exiled Wiganer]

12 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Aye you’re right I can see the meaning now, sorry fella, my bad read

Looking forward to Saturday, will be a great game. 

It’s set up like the Panthers v Broncos, with you as the throw it anywhere Broncos. If it’s half as good, it will be a treat.

[GUBRATS]

2 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

It’s set up like the Panthers v Broncos, with you as the throw it anywhere Broncos. If it’s half as good, it will be a treat.

All depends how the ref controls the PTB , if he pings your lot , Rovers stand a good chance , if he lets you slow it down , you're nailed on 

Not even game day and it's the officials who will decide