London (Merged Threads)

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Leonard said:

The might be - but we now know that Fev, Toulouse and Sheffield would have been even worse.

Maybe, maybe not. 

[phiggins]

1 hour ago, Toby Chopra said:

What do you mean "nothing has been finalised"? 

The move to the grading approach has been formally agreed by the RFL council, and the definitive criteria have been published and most are pretty transparent.

https://www.rugby-league.com/uploads/docs/Grading Handbook (Final Version).pdf

We can says with almost complete certainty that if Broncos finish at or near the bottom with anything like the crowds they had in 2019, they're going down. It would take something spectacular and unseen in 20 years in terms of crowds, corporate and performance to save them.

Rightly or wrongly, that's the system that's been signed off. 

I always found it odd when some (not you) says "IMG want their favourites London and Toulouse in" because when we looked the the criteria, it's basically as stacked against them as any other Championship club.     

Will they have a better chance if they rename themselves to London St Helens?

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

Just imagine, London finish 8th to 10th in Superleague and Wakefield finish 3rd and don't win the championship Grand Final and the spreadsheet still says Wakefield. Probably needs something like that to happen just to show how skewed this system is.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Just imagine, London finish 8th to 10th in Superleague and Wakefield finish 3rd and don't win the championship Grand Final and the spreadsheet still says Wakefield. Probably needs something like that to happen just to show how skewed this system is.

London having a good year in SL and being relegated would be one the best arguments against the grading system. I think you either have a closed off system like the NRL or retain P/R. A grading system to assess clubs can still be used. We'll see what happens.

[The Blues Ox]

Its going to be a laugh for a few seasons but then no doubt in 3 or 4 years we will have another idea that we will go to. It's just how RL works.

[eal]

For all the chopping and changing of teams and criteria at the bottom of the table, it never really changes the overall result - only 3 teams currently in Super League have ever won it - Wigan, St Helens, Leeds.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

Its going to be a laugh for a few seasons but then no doubt in 3 or 4 years we will have another idea that we will go to. It's just how RL works.

Especially if the gradings aren't (can't be) revealed until after the end of the current season......

[Derwent Parker]

9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm not 110%. The way I understand it is that if you are a B grade in Super League you are vulnerable to not being in Super League the following season.

Only if a champ club gets more points in grading or someone becomes an "A"

[binosh]

14 hours ago, NRLandSL said:

Just finished rewatching the game, I can’t believe it. It was magical what London did last week but they somehow topped that. Even more special with 10 Southern Born lads + A Welshmen, 2 PNG and 1 Fijian. Actually only 3 players in the whole side who are from a genuine rugby league heartland. Truly special stuff from the Broncos, they look a top side.

Alex Walker is a phenomenal fullback, Macani is also Fantasic, Leyland is full of potential aswell. It might not be easy at first in the SL but with players like them, they could genuinely go somewhere.

Don’t forget your coach Michael Eccles is a Leigh lad born and bred. He’s doing great things.

[Barley Mow]

Looks like (according to Mr Gledhill) we will have to wait a little longer than expected for the indicative gradings:

 

[Hopie]

Gotta find a way to bump up those London scores! 

[glossop saint]

20 hours ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Fantastic achievement by Mike Eccles and the London squad to win three tough away games on the trot. A truly remarkable achievement.

As I've said a number of times on a couple of the other threads about the IMG process, the downside for them is that the scoring system is vastly weighted against clubs trying to progress from the Championship, and London will be no exception.

The fan who commented about London being booted out of SL after winning the Grand Final might be stretching it slightly - it's possible the 0.75 points they'd get for winning the final might just about save them, but otherwise I'd say there's a strong possibility they will be relegated next season even if they reach the play-offs.

They'll score highly on catchment area, of course, but will surely struggle in so many areas. They'll get a 0.25 point bonus for winning the Championship grand final, but that has to be counter-balanced by the fact that they finished 11th last year (so 23rd overall), which will drag their three-year performance rating right down.

I reckon they would need to average crowds of around 7,000 in 2024 to bring their three-year rolling average over the lowest points threshold of 3,000, they're likely to perform badly in the digital areas, and the fact that they didn't manage to acquire a main jersey sponsor until the play-offs suggests that they aren't going to do very well in areas such as non-centralised turnover either.

As others have said, we'll know more when IMG publish their initial indicative gradings, but the spectre of the promoted team having a successful first season in SL and being unceremoniously dumped back to the Championship has been looming since the grading handbook was published.

Very good post. I had a bit of a go on another thread at comparing Wakey, TO and London as to what their grading might look like. It was very finger in the air stuff but London did not feature highly at all. 

I thought that if TO won the final then it would be touch and go as to who scored higher, them or Wakey, with Wakey maybe just about edging it. I would be surprised if London featured in the top 15 let alone top 12. There just isn't any assistance for the championship clubs, a real failing of the scoring system (amongst others).

[glossop saint]

19 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

I'm not necessarily singling you out because others have also been saying similar. But unless you have inside info this is pure speculation. Nothing has been finalised! 

The gradings might not have been realised but how they are compiled has been. Imagine the uproar if they changed the marking system to keep London in the SL!

[Expatknight]

1 hour ago, glossop saint said:

The gradings might not have been realised but how they are compiled has been. Imagine the uproar if they changed the marking system to keep London in the SL!

Yes, but this Rugby League, so literally anything could happen, it will be down to that old favourite word that is used time and again regarding anything to do with rules in Rugby League, interpretation. That way you can make the rules fit whatever you want, it’s all in the interpretation!

[RP London]

11 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Looks like (according to Mr Gledhill) we will have to wait a little longer than expected for the indicative gradings:

 

excellent i shall expect to see them this afternoon then... gledhill being gledhill. 

[Guest]

Have we signed any NRL stars yet?

At least we are in a good (if mostly empty) stadium.

Every match televised from a 5G pitch with a clubhouse and a shed (Ealing) would have been a great look for the sport.

And i can see Cats every week now as well.

[The Blues Ox]

13 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

Looks like (according to Mr Gledhill) we will have to wait a little longer than expected for the indicative gradings:

 

Someone been trolling Mick with this one, I remember a few weeks back he was telling people the mock grades were coming out yet at that point some clubs hadn't even filled in the paperwork and returned it to the RFL.

[Sports Prophet]

Did I miss the actual scores required for clubs to be graded A, B, C or Don’t Bother?

I don’t understand why people automatically think London Broncos won’t be graded high enough to remain in SL.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

12 hours ago, Hopie said:

Gotta find a way to bump up those London scores! 

I think that is genuinely the case!!

[RP London]

30 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Did I miss the actual scores required for clubs to be graded A, B, C or Don’t Bother?

I don’t understand why people automatically think London Broncos won’t be graded high enough to remain in SL.

IIRC its 15 for an A, 7 or 8 for a B the rest are C... there is a dont bother option but its labelled "Keighley"  

B Grade is good enough for super league, A means no relegation. So London I expect will be a B but it depends how high a B it is and if it is in the top 12 of the teams.. Though the whole who gets promoted etc still seems to need some clarity from what I can see.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

6 hours ago, glossop saint said:

Very good post. I had a bit of a go on another thread at comparing Wakey, TO and London as to what their grading might look like. It was very finger in the air stuff but London did not feature highly at all. 

I thought that if TO won the final then it would be touch and go as to who scored higher, them or Wakey, with Wakey maybe just about edging it. I would be surprised if London featured in the top 15 let alone top 12. There just isn't any assistance for the championship clubs, a real failing of the scoring system (amongst others).

Surely the strategic location counts loads 

[Barley Mow]

5 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Surely the strategic location counts loads 

I think most of us expected that to be worth points in some way and the criteria weighted to favour London Broncos and Toulouse (and possibly Newcastle).

I was certainly surprised when the criteria were published and were weighted towards those who have been in SL most over the three years rather than 'strategic markets'.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Barley Mow

[Sports Prophet]

32 minutes ago, RP London said:

IIRC its 15 for an A, 7 or 8 for a B the rest are C... there is a dont bother option but its labelled "Keighley"  

B Grade is good enough for super league, A means no relegation. So London I expect will be a B but it depends how high a B it is and if it is in the top 12 of the teams.. Though the whole who gets promoted etc still seems to need some clarity from what I can see.

Thanks. Just as I guessed. Broncos will be scored into a B which will be good enough for them to retain their position, over having to be ranked in the top 12 by overall score.

Wont be long before we find out for sure.

[RP London]

28 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Thanks. Just as I guessed. Broncos will be scored into a B which will be good enough for them to retain their position, over having to be ranked in the top 12 by overall score.

Wont be long before we find out for sure.

I believe, but this is where it needs to be clearer, that it will be the top 12 by score not by grading and incumbency. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by RP London

[wiganermike]

4 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Thanks. Just as I guessed. Broncos will be scored into a B which will be good enough for them to retain their position, over having to be ranked in the top 12 by overall score.

Wont be long before we find out for sure.

When some of the releases relating to how the grading system will work appeared included was a graphic that showed a bunch of grading scores in descending order with a cutoff after the 12th highest determining the initial 12 in SL (or whatever they decide to re-brand to) for 2025. This along with replies to club-made inquiries from Championship clubs, as to whether a grade B club that won a Championship GF would replace a grade B club in SL, created the impression that the 12 constituent clubs in any given year will be determined solely on the basis of being in possession of one of the 12 highest grading scores.

This along with the lack of any weighting mechanisms for non-SL clubs means that the system heavily favours clubs that have spent more of the preceding 3 seasons in SL. This then leads everyone to the conclusion that London will have a difficult time overhauling the deficit in grading scores vs Wakefield or any other contenders for the SL places available for B grade clubs. All other contenders will have had more seasons in SL than London and thus will get higher points for categories like performance (Wakefield get more points for being 12th in SL this year than Fev get for topping the Championship table), attendance, tv coverage etc. This combined with a poor finishing position in 2022 for London means that even if they achieve what Leigh did next year they will still likely struggle to make up the deficit and secure one of the 12 highest grading scores.

It is expected that merely being in SL next year and being graded in the Bs will not suffice to keep that SL place. London (or any other SL club) will need to be one of 12 highest scoring clubs out of 34 to retain their place no matter how well (or poorly they perform).