England vs Samoa Series

[Adelaide Tiger]

On 31/10/2024 at 19:31, Odsal Outlaw said:

enjoyed this, had it shared to me by lots of non-league fans as well - a great way of promoting the game.
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DBrdDnIgHRY/?igsh=MWVodjdnbGtkNmRvcQ==

 

I enjoyed that.  I am assuming that the ‘presenter’ was tongue in cheek.

Liked the part when he asked for some posh nosh and ended up having a pie.  It reminded me of the time when I was working for Wakefield Met and had to meet a TV Producer in Cas who was doing a recce on behalf of the Time Team program which eventuated in an episode filmed in Cas based on its Roman heritage ….. and not on the older artefact in the town, the RL ground!.

Around lunchtime he asked me ‘Is there anywhere where I can get a Panini’.  I had never heard of a Panini so I thought he was taking about a type of Pizza, so I said ‘The Pizza shop doesn’t open until around 7pm’.  He just looked at me with a bemused ‘ah, bless’ expression

[The Rocket]

4 hours ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

TV Producer in Cas who was doing a recce on behalf of the Time Team program which eventuated in an episode filmed in Cas based on its Roman heritage

This probably belongs on the `Rugby League in strange places` thread but speaking of Time Team, Phil the pottery expert on that show often wore St. Helens` sloppy Joe `s and /or caps.

[Dave T]

I do think the crowd at Leeds really showed the challenge we have with selling these games. 

We know how poor the RFL have been. But that first test was advertising and awareness gold. We had a peak of c800k on BBC and the war dance videos went viral. The first test was a very good full on test match with a great England performance. Once the rugby kicked off, everything became positive, as it often does, but in reality, it was a disappointing crowd in Leeds, let's not sugar coat it.

I think there is a huge issue with RFL events in that they aren't really good events. The sport is great, we know that, but they often lack atmosphere, catering is average, facilities not always world class (Headingly is great but is it world class?), no entertainment etc. 

I think we make a mistake far too often in feeling that the rugby can just do everything, the results tell us otherwise. The World Cup put me off international rl. I was bored to tears around most of it, with only the opener at Newcastle feeling like a real event that was fun and enjoyable, and even that was a car crash as the opening ceremony failed.

This series has delivered very very modest growth (average crowd), which is disappointing, this England team deserves more.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I do think the crowd at Leeds really showed the challenge we have with selling these games. 

We know how poor the RFL have been. But that first test was advertising and awareness gold. We had a peak of c800k on BBC and the war dance videos went viral. The first test was a very good full on test match with a great England performance. Once the rugby kicked off, everything became positive, as it often does, but in reality, it was a disappointing crowd in Leeds, let's not sugar coat it.

I think there is a huge issue with RFL events in that they aren't really good events. The sport is great, we know that, but they often lack atmosphere, catering is average, facilities not always world class (Headingly is great but is it world class?), no entertainment etc. 

I think we make a mistake far too often in feeling that the rugby can just do everything, the results tell us otherwise. The World Cup put me off international rl. I was bored to tears around most of it, with only the opener at Newcastle feeling like a real event that was fun and enjoyable, and even that was a car crash as the opening ceremony failed.

This series has delivered very very modest growth (average crowd), which is disappointing, this England team deserves more.

All this but you do need to add: and we're playing it in the only bit of the country that gets top level RL multiple times a week for eight months of the year.

[Damien]

I did think we'd have got more of a bump after the Wigan game and would have been closer to a sellout at Leeds. For all the usual faults, with late confirmation, player withdrawals, the usual lack of promotion etc, two 15k+ crowds is okay for tests against Samoa. It's a pass, no more or less. It's not particularly where I want to be, and would love to have been getting 20k+, but I think we are pretty much at our ceiling with the current RFL approach and for games in the heartland at normal SL stadiums against a tier 2 nation. We've had plenty of recent history to tell us this is the case.

I said a couple of weeks ago that maybe a successful Ashes tour at big stadiums can raise the bar for the next time we have games against countries like Tonga and Samoa. I really hope that's the case and that an Ashes gives the RFL more confidence and the money to do things better. For now though we are where we are.

[JohnM]

We don't want your "events", though. I've seen two, just two, half -decent fans zones in the whole of my rugby league life - once at Magic Weekend and once, indoors, at that infamous Coventry game where I'd have been warmer inside a freezer than outside at the game.

The rest? Quite frankly, pathetic. And pre-match entertainment? Has no one heard of the Trades Description Act? At one recent game, Heather Small was....well...very small.  She was singing from somewhere in a stand and no one could see her she was so small. 

Every game, and I mean EVERY game is an opportunity to hook fans, for local clubs to recruit youngsters to their ranks, for the home club to promote itself and is a showcase for the sport as a whole. 

Let's gve Lowry the elbow...let's have some FUN!

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

All this but you do need to add: and we're playing it in the only bit of the country that gets top level RL multiple times a week for eight months of the year.

Sort of. Playing sport where it isn't played the rest of the year is a brave strategy that others don't do. So I actually disagree with your point in the way it's articulated.

But obviously we are talking about London, the better way to make the point is that London generally delivers good crowds for England games but was ignored.

Because taking your point to its naturaly conclusion may suggest Middlesborough's stadiumw was a good idea.

[Dave T]

12 minutes ago, JohnM said:

We don't want your "events", though. I've seen two, just two, half -decent fans zones in the whole of my rugby league life - once at Magic Weekend and once, indoors, at that infamous Coventry game where I'd have been warmer inside a freezer than outside at the game.

The rest? Quite frankly, pathetic. And pre-match entertainment? Has no one heard of the Trades Description Act? At one recent game, Heather Small was....well...very small.  She was singing from somewhere in a stand and no one could see her she was so small. 

Every game, and I mean EVERY game is an opportunity to hook fans, for local clubs to recruit youngsters to their ranks, for the home club to promote itself and is a showcase for the sport as a whole. 

Let's gve Lowry the elbow...let's have some FUN!

I've been banging the drum about your last word for years John. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, Dave T said:

Sort of. Playing sport where it isn't played the rest of the year is a brave strategy that others don't do. So I actually disagree with your point in the way it's articulated.

But obviously we are talking about London, the better way to make the point is that London generally delivers good crowds for England games but was ignored.

Because taking your point to its naturaly conclusion may suggest Middlesborough's stadiumw was a good idea.

London is good for event crowds so if you're putting on an event then it makes sense - but anywhere could make sense.

The bit that doesn't make sense is putting on a sub par event in the only saturated market in the country. And I think the needle doesn't move that much if you make it an amazing event in the saturated bit - hence moving it out of there is necessary if you actually want to change things.

Middlesbrough was a bad idea poorly executed. It doesn't make Middlesbrough always the wrong choice.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, JohnM said:

We don't want your "events", though. I've seen two, just two, half -decent fans zones in the whole of my rugby league life - once at Magic Weekend and once, indoors, at that infamous Coventry game where I'd have been warmer inside a freezer than outside at the game.

The rest? Quite frankly, pathetic. And pre-match entertainment? Has no one heard of the Trades Description Act? At one recent game, Heather Small was....well...very small.  She was singing from somewhere in a stand and no one could see her she was so small. 

Every game, and I mean EVERY game is an opportunity to hook fans, for local clubs to recruit youngsters to their ranks, for the home club to promote itself and is a showcase for the sport as a whole. 

Let's gve Lowry the elbow...let's have some FUN!

I'd add the Newcastle opener for the WC was superb. Great fanzone, entertainment and a theatre piece. Obviously it can't be that level every time, but an England game should absolutely be an event.

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

London is good for event crowds so if you're putting on an event then it makes sense - but anywhere could make sense.

The bit that doesn't make sense is putting on a sub par event in the only saturated market in the country. And I think the needle doesn't move that much if you make it an amazing event in the saturated bit - hence moving it out of there is necessary if you actually want to change things.

Middlesbrough was a bad idea poorly executed. It doesn't make Middlesbrough always the wrong choice.

We agree that London should be used. But I think your logic is flawed.

Other sports generally play their internationals where they have presence all year round - the word saturated is your interpretation to make the point.

It would be a horrible strategy to have all internationals outside of the North of England.

The substandard bit is important. There is probably less effort in the England game at the DW than there is a big Wigan game.

[Dave T]

For me, and I know some roll their eyes when we talk about entertainment and fanzones, but these are crucial at the moment.

We don't have a huge fan bases for these games, so you have to absolutely delight those who do go. I'm not talking about them nipping to a match and having a perfectly pleasant 2hrs out of the house. They need to be blown away by the event, everything should be best in class, the presentation, the event feel,the food, drink, atmosphere, entertainment  merch etc - people should leave buzzing irrespective of the match. They should be so buzzing that the majority of them are pretty much guaranteed to attend again.

Marketing the next England game started with this series (and in reality, the series before and so on).

[Damien]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'd add the Newcastle opener for the WC was superb. Great fanzone, entertainment and a theatre piece. Obviously it can't be that level every time, but an England game should absolutely be an event.

Why not though? If we have say anywhere between 2-5 showpiece events each year (say both finals and 3 England games) why can't they all be at that level?

I'd accept that starts with venue selection, and big stadiums just add a lot as an event, but surely even at Wigan and Leeds a little more can be done than just leaving it up to the host club to put a few things on.

[gingerjon]

32 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Other sports generally play their internationals where they have presence all year round

RU has distinct stadiums for internationals, cricket's grounds are, essentially, venues for 2-3 internationals a year that may also host club/county games, football is football so not really worth the comparison. Other sports seem to play wherever they can fit in or where there's a 'national' centre they are attached to.

RL is somewhat unique in its situation.

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

Why not though? If we have say anywhere between 2-5 showpiece events each year (say both finals and 3 England games) why can't they all be at that level?

I'd accept that starts with venue selection, and big stadiums just add a lot as an event, but surely even at Wigan and Leeds a little more can be done than just leaving it up to the host club to put a few things on.

I'm ok with the World Cup opener being at a higher level than a standard England game, but I agree, it should be a showpiece event, that was my point.

The WC opener was at a level that I hadn't ever seen for RL though, which is why the rest of the tournament was so naff in this space.

 

[gingerjon]

35 minutes ago, Dave T said:

For me, and I know some roll their eyes when we talk about entertainment and fanzones, but these are crucial at the moment.

We don't have a huge fan bases for these games, so you have to absolutely delight those who do go. I'm not talking about them nipping to a match and having a perfectly pleasant 2hrs out of the house. They need to be blown away by the event, everything should be best in class, the presentation, the event feel,the food, drink, atmosphere, entertainment  merch etc - people should leave buzzing irrespective of the match. They should be so buzzing that the majority of them are pretty much guaranteed to attend again.

Marketing the next England game started with this series (and in reality, the series before and so on).

And this is absolutely right. We need to have the kind of event that even if England lose the feeling is that it was time well spent.

[The Rocket]

40 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Marketing the next England game started with this series (and in reality, the series before and so on)

Well Herbie`s doing his bit, this is the second or third article I`ve seen today where Herbie is saying the Aussie`s are the next target

Herbie goes bananas for England, now wants a slice of Aussies after dusting off Samoa

[Tommygilf]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I do think the crowd at Leeds really showed the challenge we have with selling these games. 

We know how poor the RFL have been. But that first test was advertising and awareness gold. We had a peak of c800k on BBC and the war dance videos went viral. The first test was a very good full on test match with a great England performance. Once the rugby kicked off, everything became positive, as it often does, but in reality, it was a disappointing crowd in Leeds, let's not sugar coat it.

I think there is a huge issue with RFL events in that they aren't really good events. The sport is great, we know that, but they often lack atmosphere, catering is average, facilities not always world class (Headingly is great but is it world class?), no entertainment etc. 

I think we make a mistake far too often in feeling that the rugby can just do everything, the results tell us otherwise. The World Cup put me off international rl. I was bored to tears around most of it, with only the opener at Newcastle feeling like a real event that was fun and enjoyable, and even that was a car crash as the opening ceremony failed.

This series has delivered very very modest growth (average crowd), which is disappointing, this England team deserves more.

There's a lot of the matchday that can be improved at Headingley for sure, in many ways off the field it didn't feel any different to a Rhinos game. In fact I was disappointed with Oxen for their lack of England Merch stalls given they are the supplier! The food offering is better than in the past though still not enough of them, and they still haven't got the bars right. It didn't feel like a major event. There was very little in the way of sponsor involvement I felt, eg. no ABK beers or no fanzone mascot type things.

I did certainly notice a massive diversity of fans from all over at the game though. I don't know if this was also apparent at Wigan.

I also noticed a decent variety of sponsors, including a few returning, on the advertising boards. That has to be a positive as does the seating sellout.

Headingley delivered what it always would I suppose with minimal budget, solid but not spectacular. We got twice as many at Elland Road for a 3rd test against NZ in 2018, as a reference. As a second venue in Leeds it works pretty well.

[Dave T]

22 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Well Herbie`s doing his bit, this is the second or third article I`ve seen today where Herbie is saying the Aussie`s are the next target

Herbie goes bananas for England, now wants a slice of Aussies after dusting off Samoa

That's great, and i can watch that on BBC.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's a lot of the matchday that can be improved at Headingley for sure, in many ways off the field it didn't feel any different to a Rhinos game. In fact I was disappointed with Oxen for their lack of England Merch stalls given they are the supplier! The food offering is better than in the past though still not enough of them, and they still haven't got the bars right. It didn't feel like a major event. There was very little in the way of sponsor involvement I felt, eg. no ABK beers or no fanzone mascot type things.

I did certainly notice a massive diversity of fans from all over at the game though. I don't know if this was also apparent at Wigan.

I also noticed a decent variety of sponsors, including a few returning, on the advertising boards. That has to be a positive as does the seating sellout.

Headingley delivered what it always would I suppose with minimal budget, solid but not spectacular. We got twice as many at Elland Road for a 3rd test against NZ in 2018, as a reference. As a second venue in Leeds it works pretty well.

I think as Damien described it, the series is maybe passable at best. We really need to be getting way beyond passable don't we?

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think as Damien described it, the series is maybe passable at best. We really need to be getting way beyond passable don't we?

Oh absolutely and like I've said several times the RFL deserves to be embarrassed into better action IMO. The events we put on simply must be better. This was a desperate cash strapped series and it showed imo. 

That said I do also think both these attendances make a Brentford match vs France, Wales or even PNG/Lebanon not seem so ridiculous. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Oh absolutely and like I've said several times the RFL deserves to be embarrassed into better action IMO. The events we put on simply must be better. This was a desperate cash strapped series and it showed imo. 

That said I do also think both these attendances make a Brentford match vs France, Wales or even PNG/Lebanon not seem so ridiculous. 

I think the fact that we get around half these crowds for a game versus France means we have little to lose really in terms of taking the games elsewhere (on a purely bums on seats aspect). The challenge is making it work financially as we clearly access mates rates at RL grounds.

But we are seeing ever diminishing returns, at some stage we need to be brave.

[redjonn]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think as Damien described it, the series is maybe passable at best. We really need to be getting way beyond passable don't we?

I agree with what you have said on this thread, but do wonder what sort of stadium event improvements would make that much difference.

For me it starts with the buzz i have before getting anywhere near the game. The buzz of getting a ticket, the buzz of looking forward to the game all week, the buzz of travelling to the game... once at the stadium it would be the icing on the buzz cake.

I mean when I'm to a RU international I have all those buzz aspects even though I know I probably won't think much of the game nor the stadium experience, especially as most of the game I'd be up and down off me seat to let people past as they go the bar and come back.

[Tommygilf]

One negative of Headingley on a Saturday - The Otley Run. It's grown beyond anything I remember! Fun to be on, but a nightmare if you're inadvertently caught in its midst. 

Pre match that means it's only busy with rugby fans in the Skyrack, Original Oak or Headingley Taps, but by 5pm it was absolutely rammed with Otley runners. Only those in the know went to The Golden Beam (Wetherspoons) for a drink after the game in the area because they can't allow fancy dress inside. Or going back up the run if you were the few heading back that way.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Dave T said:

I think the fact that we get around half these crowds for a game versus France means we have little to lose really in terms of taking the games elsewhere (on a purely bums on seats aspect). The challenge is making it work financially as we clearly access mates rates at RL grounds.

But we are seeing ever diminishing returns, at some stage we need to be brave.

I totally agree the mates rates thing is obvious now, and clearly the sport really is strapped for cash.

I've always been of the opinion that the likes of Wales and France should either be played in those countries in the first instance, or failing that in non-heartland venues in England. The likes of London or Bristol come to mind. It would need to be brave, but it's not unheard of levels either.