England vs Samoa Series

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Did the England team do any stuff in the community last week, as opposed to the week before in Wigan?

Not being facetious but did Leeds organise anything? Everything I saw for the England game at Wigan was organised and driven by them rather than the RFL.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Damien

[Tommygilf]

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/ipzSirGtJHcRqjkb/

I take it all back the RFL are brilliant at half time entertainment 

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Another thought that came to mind, and is worth being considered again, is that the opposition are almost always not going to be very well known. Luai was the most well known I'd argue of the Samoa team, but even he for most English RL fans is probably not a household level name. The NRL is big, but it is also a bit niche, even amongst RL anoraks. 

Would most attendees at a typical England Soccer or RU game be all that familiar with opposition players? Doesn't appear to affect the prestige and allure of their international fixtures. 

Probably academic re Tonga and Samoa anyway. If the Pacific Championship continues to grow, they'll be keen to stay in the SH and play in front of their masses of diaspora fans.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Would most attendees at a typical England Soccer or RU game be all that familiar with opposition players? Doesn't appear to affect the prestige and allure of their international fixtures. 

Probably academic re Tonga and Samoa anyway. If the Pacific Championship continues to grow, they'll be keen to stay in the SH and play in front of their masses of diaspora fans.

Football, against a side in the top 10 in the world? Almost certainly, if for no other reason than a significant number of the players probably play in or have played in the Premier League. Even then their poorer games get lower attendances.

RU is probably a case of more than us, less than football - I also expect it fluctuates a fair bit between nations. RU international teams are more like international cricket teams too in terms of longevity and regularity, so that is a factor.

They will be keen however they also need to amass money themselves. Touring has always been a way of doing that and down under the NRL pull the strings.

[unapologetic pedant]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Just opening a stadium and putting two teams on the field isn't what others tend to do.

What do others do that the RFL do not?

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think these things will be different for.different demographics, but I think one of the biggest feelings around international RL for me is lack of effort. Even if the choice of entertainment or whatever isn't to my taste, I can appreciate effort.

I think if the games are perceived as major events, the peripheral "entertainment" blends in with that perception.

If the games are not perceived as major events, precisely the same "entertainment" falls flat and seems gimmicky.

[unapologetic pedant]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Football, against a side in the top 10 in the world? Almost certainly, if for no other reason than a significant number of the players probably play in or have played in the Premier League. 

Recognizable names from SL for the Combined Nations All Stars wasn't deemed a huge advantage.

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

RU international teams are more like international cricket teams too in terms of longevity and regularity, so that is a factor.

This is what we should aim to replicate. I doubt many casuals at Twickenham know much about individual opposition players. But they will understand the reputation of the All Blacks. Along with several other national teams.

Our overemphasis on the Aussies is a stumbling block. Quite apart from P.I. nations, plenty of "Oh no, not the Kiwis again" comments on TRL over the years. We can't build a NH international RL scene if Australia is the only team we respect.

[maroonandgold]

Samoa expected to win the series...or at least the second test.  Their struggle with the pace of the first test gave them little chance but in the second they came out to win it.  SH press constantly barrage the players and supporters with their "superman" status so they only had to put a couple of things right and England would crumble.

The fact they then lose...and it's immediately blamed on the officiating...which as any coach worth his salt will tell you gets you nowhere as it's outside your control.  Their ego (fans, players (although they've been relatively quiet) and press) gets in the way of accepting they get beat in the Test Matches.  England have to be rubbish as far as SH press and fans are concerned...if they don't win England are still rubbish it's bent referees (who just don't care who wins)

What's strange is British fans thinking Samoa & Tonga aren't any good so England were bound to win without being any good...

 

[Gerrumonside ref]

I enjoyed the games tbh and wasn’t 100% we’d win or lose them which is perfect.

[MatthewWoody]

33 minutes ago, maroonandgold said:

Samoa expected to win the series...or at least the second test.  Their struggle with the pace of the first test gave them little chance but in the second they came out to win it.  SH press constantly barrage the players and supporters with their "superman" status so they only had to put a couple of things right and England would crumble.

The fact they then lose...and it's immediately blamed on the officiating...which as any coach worth his salt will tell you gets you nowhere as it's outside your control.  Their ego (fans, players (although they've been relatively quiet) and press) gets in the way of accepting they get beat in the Test Matches.  England have to be rubbish as far as SH press and fans are concerned...if they don't win England are still rubbish it's bent referees (who just don't care who wins)

What's strange is British fans thinking Samoa & Tonga aren't any good so England were bound to win without being any good...

 

Let's say losing that SF at home v. Samoa didn't help England improving their reputation down under. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, maroonandgold said:

What's strange is British fans thinking Samoa & Tonga aren't any good so England were bound to win without being any good...

I don't think it's quite that - losing to Samoa in the semi final showed that they can beat us.

I think it's more a case of them being marked as "not to be underestimated". That is also understood in the context that ultimately, if England focus and play to their potential they should still be enough to beat Samoa and Tonga - or at least to keep them at arms length on home soil. 

Perhaps it's arrogance, but from an English/GB perspective, losing to anyone other than Australia or NZ (sometimes) is probably in large part going to be because we were in some way below our standards. We expect to win. In fairness look at the 8 games played against Samoa, Tonga and PNG at home by England since 2022; out of 8 we've won 7, and of those wins only one game has been won by a single score's difference (1st Test vs Tonga).

Add to this the impact of the NRL not really being known over here, and the international RL brands outside of the Kiwis and Kangaroos being pretty small, and it becomes clearer to see why, on their own, the superstars of Samoa and Tonga aren't drawing massive crowds or interest.

I don't think therefore that people don't think they're any good, it's just they don't think about them full stop...

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I enjoyed the games tbh and wasn’t 100% we’d win or lose them which is perfect.

It's definitely better than what we could have had. Though given the scores it's clear both Tonga and Samoa need more touring experience!

[Odsal Outlaw]

Atmosphere at Headingley on Saturday was non existent. Agree we need better events - in fact complete rethink is needed. I got 20 people to go on Saturday, only 5 of us are ‘RL fans’. I haven’t yet asked the ‘non fans’ what they thought - game was good but everything was just a bit dull. 

[WN83]

3 hours ago, maroonandgold said:

Samoa expected to win the series...or at least the second test.  Their struggle with the pace of the first test gave them little chance but in the second they came out to win it.  SH press constantly barrage the players and supporters with their "superman" status so they only had to put a couple of things right and England would crumble.

The fact they then lose...and it's immediately blamed on the officiating...which as any coach worth his salt will tell you gets you nowhere as it's outside your control.  Their ego (fans, players (although they've been relatively quiet) and press) gets in the way of accepting they get beat in the Test Matches.  England have to be rubbish as far as SH press and fans are concerned...if they don't win England are still rubbish it's bent referees (who just don't care who wins)

What's strange is British fans thinking Samoa & Tonga aren't any good so England were bound to win without being any good...

 

 

My favourite example of the one eyed nature of the Aussie media was how we went from probably 2nd or 3rd best in the World pre covid, to then being judged as probably being behind Tonga, Samoa and even PNG going in to the last World Cup, without even playing. We made such a mess of that semi final that we probably didn't quite open their eyes as we should have on the back of absolute thrashings of Samoa and PNG but we've since comfortably beaten Tonga and Samoa in 5 tests.

Lets not beat around the bush, we should be beating the sides they've named, especially on home soil but you still hear all the talk of the biased refs as you say and after watching 5 minutes of the Bloke in a Bar podcast earlier, all they spoke about regards England was how good Herbie Farnworth is (fair enough) and how he could win the Golden Boot, while then giggling like school girls as they mentioned that Tommy Mak-in-son once won it. The disrespect shown towards Makinson sort of sums up the whole attitude that if you've not played NRL, you're nobody to them. It was much the same with WIllie Mason saying with a straight face, as though he was complimenting the team, that 'half' the English side would get on an NRL roster. FIrstly, pretty much half of them are starters in the NRL already and secondly, they would all get in NRL teams quite comfortably. 

[wilsontown]

39 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

Atmosphere at Headingley on Saturday was non existent. Agree we need better events - in fact complete rethink is needed. I got 20 people to go on Saturday, only 5 of us are ‘RL fans’. I haven’t yet asked the ‘non fans’ what they thought - game was good but everything was just a bit dull. 

Must admit I found the atmosphere disappointing. I was on my feet on a few occasions in the North but no-one else seemed to be all that interested. The whole ground is so tight to the pitch that you'd think it would lend itself to a proper atmosphere, but just didn't seem to happen on Saturday.

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

What was better about this weekend versus the Tonga game at the same venue last year? (assuming you went to both).

It was a fuller and noisier crowd with a better sense of being behind England ......I'm putting that down to it was a second test not a third and maybe we have more reason to dislike Samoa after the WC

The game was better too....the fact they scored first was a good thing so we were all more up for it from the start ....Samoa put up a mich better show/fight than Tonga did 

There was the usual food stands etc .....only shame is there could have been a band in the south stand like they do sometimes on that ledge thing near the bars ....or maybe some exotic dancers or face painting or balloons or something 

 

 

 

[JM2010]

32 minutes ago, WN83 said:

 

My favourite example of the one eyed nature of the Aussie media was how we went from probably 2nd or 3rd best in the World pre covid, to then being judged as probably being behind Tonga, Samoa and even PNG going in to the last World Cup, without even playing. We made such a mess of that semi final that we probably didn't quite open their eyes as we should have on the back of absolute thrashings of Samoa and PNG but we've since comfortably beaten Tonga and Samoa in 5 tests.

Lets not beat around the bush, we should be beating the sides they've named, especially on home soil but you still hear all the talk of the biased refs as you say and after watching 5 minutes of the Bloke in a Bar podcast earlier, all they spoke about regards England was how good Herbie Farnworth is (fair enough) and how he could win the Golden Boot, while then giggling like school girls as they mentioned that Tommy Mak-in-son once won it. The disrespect shown towards Makinson sort of sums up the whole attitude that if you've not played NRL, you're nobody to them. It was much the same with WIllie Mason saying with a straight face, as though he was complimenting the team, that 'half' the English side would get on an NRL roster. FIrstly, pretty much half of them are starters in the NRL already and secondly, they would all get in NRL teams quite comfortably. 

If nearly all the Samoan team are playing regular NRL then it’s a no brainer that the 17 England players would all be good enough as we are better than Samoa. 
If we keep beating the SH teams they will have to start giving us some respect. 
Let’s continue it with the ashes next year

[MatthewWoody]

I can't choose what to prefer between (some) English fans who ignore the best league in the world and the Aussie fans who ignore the English game at all. 

[roughyed8]

1 hour ago, WN83 said:

 

My favourite example of the one eyed nature of the Aussie media was how we went from probably 2nd or 3rd best in the World pre covid, to then being judged as probably being behind Tonga, Samoa and even PNG going in to the last World Cup, without even playing. We made such a mess of that semi final that we probably didn't quite open their eyes as we should have on the back of absolute thrashings of Samoa and PNG but we've since comfortably beaten Tonga and Samoa in 5 tests.

Lets not beat around the bush, we should be beating the sides they've named, especially on home soil but you still hear all the talk of the biased refs as you say and after watching 5 minutes of the Bloke in a Bar podcast earlier, all they spoke about regards England was how good Herbie Farnworth is (fair enough) and how he could win the Golden Boot, while then giggling like school girls as they mentioned that Tommy Mak-in-son once won it. The disrespect shown towards Makinson sort of sums up the whole attitude that if you've not played NRL, you're nobody to them. It was much the same with WIllie Mason saying with a straight face, as though he was complimenting the team, that 'half' the English side would get on an NRL roster. FIrstly, pretty much half of them are starters in the NRL already and secondly, they would all get in NRL teams quite comfortably. 

They clearly forgot England beat Tonga last year 3-0  with a team full of Superleague based players apart from Radley, Whitehead and Burgess, the same Tonga that beat NZ to reach the Pacific championship final.

 

[WN83]

40 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

I can't choose what to prefer between (some) English fans who ignore the best league in the world and the Aussie fans who ignore the English game at all. 

I don't think too many English fans ignore the NRL. They might not be avid followers but most know who the best players are and know how good the comp is. On the flip side, I doubt many Aussies know literally anything about Superleague. If an English player does well in the NRL, they speak as though they've plucked them from obscurity and that the training over the there is responsible for turning a pub player in to a world beater. An example of that was when I was watching NRL 360 in the week after one of KPP's early games for Newcastle. All the talk was about how surprised they were with how he'd coped with the physicality and pace of the game, so early in to his NRL career, as though all he had been used to was playing on a park field somewhere, after 15 pints the night before. He'd come from Wigan and just off the back of playing in a Grand Final. He was an international player and a specimen of a bloke. I'd only a couple of months before watched a number of Tongan forwards blowing out of their backsides against England, so I don't know where this opinion comes from that lads from over here will be blown away by the pace and power of it all (certainly the top players here anyway). 

Edited November 4, 2024 by WN83

[Dave T]

Just now, WN83 said:

I don't think too many English fans ignore the NRL. They might not be avid followers but most know who the best players are and know how good the comp is. On the flip side, I doubt many Aussies know literally anything about Superleague. If an English player does well in the NRL, they speak as though they've plucked them from obscurity and that the training over the there is responsible for turning a pub player in to a world beater. An example of that was when I was watching NRL 360 in the week after one of KPP's early games for Newcastle. All the talk was about how surprised they were with how he'd coped with the physicality and pace of the game, so early in to his NRL career, as though all he had been used to was playing on a park field somewhere, after 15 pints the night before. He'd come from Wigan and just off the back of playing in a Grand Final. He was an international player and a specimen of a bloke. I'd only a couple of months before watched a number of Tongan forwards blowing out of their backsides against England, so I don't know where the shock comes from. 

The attitudes are a little weird, and I do think it makes them look a bit stupid. 

Super League players are more regularly going over there and doing well, England regularly win against NZ, Samoa, Tonga etc. We lost the 2017 World Cup final 6 nil in Brisbane, our clubs often do well in the WCC. Considering all the advantages that the Aussies have, it's really quite staggering that we are even close to them, and for them to act as ignorant as they do speaks volumes about their journos and pundits tbh.

[StandOffHalf]

28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The attitudes are a little weird, and I do think it makes them look a bit stupid. 

Super League players are more regularly going over there and doing well, England regularly win against NZ, Samoa, Tonga etc. We lost the 2017 World Cup final 6 nil in Brisbane, our clubs often do well in the WCC. Considering all the advantages that the Aussies have, it's really quite staggering that we are even close to them, and for them to act as ignorant as they do speaks volumes about their journos and pundits tbh.

Yes, so many of them are so insular and wilfully unaware. I think it's all part of the self-serving circle-jerk.

Listening to guys like Shane Flanagan - who is a good coach - go on on James Graham's podcast about how internationals should be every second year just shows a completely NRL-centric mindset.

[Sports Prophet]

14 hours ago, Dave T said:

I do think the crowd at Leeds really showed the challenge we have with selling these games. 

We know how poor the RFL have been. But that first test was advertising and awareness gold. We had a peak of c800k on BBC and the war dance videos went viral. The first test was a very good full on test match with a great England performance. Once the rugby kicked off, everything became positive, as it often does, but in reality, it was a disappointing crowd in Leeds, let's not sugar coat it.

I think there is a huge issue with RFL events in that they aren't really good events. The sport is great, we know that, but they often lack atmosphere, catering is average, facilities not always world class (Headingly is great but is it world class?), no entertainment etc. 

I think we make a mistake far too often in feeling that the rugby can just do everything, the results tell us otherwise. The World Cup put me off international rl. I was bored to tears around most of it, with only the opener at Newcastle feeling like a real event that was fun and enjoyable, and even that was a car crash as the opening ceremony failed.

This series has delivered very very modest growth (average crowd), which is disappointing, this England team deserves more.

Well put Dave. I have a further take on it, as I mentioned earlier, I cannot find sign of any Sales staff at RL Commercial. Promote and market all you like, you still need a sales team to get the best conversion.

[Hopie]

3 hours ago, WN83 said:

 

 being judged as probably being behind Tonga, Samoa and even PNG going in to the last World Cup

I think this probably had a lot to do with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Great_Britain_Lions_tour

[unapologetic pedant]

53 minutes ago, WN83 said:

I don't think too many English fans ignore the NRL. They might not be avid followers but most know who the best players are and know how good the comp is. On the flip side, I doubt many Aussies know literally anything about Superleague. If an English player does well in the NRL, they speak as though they've plucked them from obscurity and that the training over the there is responsible for turning a pub player in to a world beater. An example of that was when I was watching NRL 360 in the week after one of KPP's early games for Newcastle. All the talk was about how surprised they were with how he'd coped with the physicality and pace of the game, so early in to his NRL career, as though all he had been used to was playing on a park field somewhere, after 15 pints the night before. He'd come from Wigan and just off the back of playing in a Grand Final. He was an international player and a specimen of a bloke. I'd only a couple of months before watched a number of Tongan forwards blowing out of their backsides against England, so I don't know where this opinion comes from that lads from over here will be blown away by the pace and power of it all (certainly the top players here anyway). 

After the first Samoa test, I had some fruitless exchanges on an Aussie forum with a couple of otherwise reasonably sane NRL fans who were absolutely convinced the refereeing was decisive.

Mutual ignorance and incomprehension between Oz and UK regarding RL is something to behold. As the world gets more connected we seem to get more disconnected. In both countries the game has historically been marked by internal geographic limits. Perhaps there's a link. For us, RL is a Lancashire/Yorkshire pursuit. Anything outside Lancashire/Yorkshire is presumed inauthentic. For them, RL is a NSW/QLD pursuit. Anything outside NSW/QLD is presumed inauthentic.

Teachers taking schools teams on tours down under have reported a common sentiment among their opponents is surprise that English children play RL. Younger generations think NRL is a uniquely Australian sport like AFL.

[Dave T]

7 hours ago, Hopie said:

I think this probably had a lot to do with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Great_Britain_Lions_tour

I think our poor record away from home is definitely an issue. Both the Aussies and Kiwis come over here and win series, whereas we haven't won anything over there for decades.

We have had some good series, iirc the last 4N there was fingertips from Hall away from beating the Aussies and a 2 at game versus the Kiwis (we chose not to take the draw), and a 6pt WC final, but we are too inconsistent.

That GB tour was a car crash, and tbh I put it 100% at Wayne Bennet's door that one. He stayed with the RFL too long.