Have we got a RL Joey Barton ?

[gingerjon]

1 hour ago, Hopie said:

However to dismiss criticism of individuals as less worthwhile or honest because they lie within certain demographics is also foolish. 

Devereux didn't pick individuals, he picked on the demographics. Barton very quickly moved on from specific individuals to the whole demographic.

[Dave T]

9 hours ago, Futtocks said:

The restaurant critic Jay Rayner runs regular writing courses and his main message is that you have to be a good writer first and an expert second. If you're an expert who can't articulate what you know in a readable manner, people won't read your work.

This also applies to broadcasting. Baz'n'Tez have decades of experience, but have struggled for years to say anything original, entertaining or thought-provoking. You could make a very strong argument for employing someone articulate, perceptive and witty, but with less  actual RL experience.

Spot on. Let's be honest, it's a comms/presenting role, I rarely learn that much from them that you'd call real technical expert knowledge. Maybe the specialist roles like Wells is the difference. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Devereux didn't pick individuals, he picked on the demographics. Barton very quickly moved on from specific individuals to the whole demographic.

This is very important. If an individual woman pundit is criticised that's all good, in the same was that Baz and Tez get plenty of criticism as has been called out. 

However, that isn't what is being talked about, the instances, as you point out, the criticism is often followed up with generalisations about women pundits (not qualifies, their voices don't sound right etc) , and in extreme cases has led to quite extreme pile-ons which become bullying. These are not anything other than pure misogyny and men resisting women coming into 'our' space. 

Edited February 2 by Dave T

[Damien]

9 hours ago, Futtocks said:

The restaurant critic Jay Rayner runs regular writing courses and his main message is that you have to be a good writer first and an expert second. If you're an expert who can't articulate what you know in a readable manner, people won't read your work.

This also applies to broadcasting. Baz'n'Tez have decades of experience, but have struggled for years to say anything original, entertaining or thought-provoking. You could make a very strong argument for employing someone articulate, perceptive and witty, but with less  actual RL experience.

Absolutely this and some great points. Someone could be the most knowledgeable RL person in the world but if they aren't articulate and cant get their points across then they are poor on TV.

[OriginalMrC]

I think the female pundits and presenters who work in RL are top class and better than many of their male counterparts. I can say the same about darts and snooker as other sports that are similar.

Football and I'd say RU as well just have a lot of bad pundits male and female. The issue is that the female pundits get a hell of a lot more criticism than their male colleagues. 

[EagleEyePie]

10 hours ago, Futtocks said:

The restaurant critic Jay Rayner runs regular writing courses and his main message is that you have to be a good writer first and an expert second. If you're an expert who can't articulate what you know in a readable manner, people won't read your work.

This also applies to broadcasting. Baz'n'Tez have decades of experience, but have struggled for years to say anything original, entertaining or thought-provoking. You could make a very strong argument for employing someone articulate, perceptive and witty, but with less  actual RL experience.

To be fair to Barrie and Terry, I don't think they got their gig at Sky because of their knowledge of the game and insight. Didn't their break at Sky come through 'Boots n'all' or whatever it was called? Unless I'm misremembering (I was quite young at the time) they used to do some skits on that show and people seemed to find them entertaining and the 'double act' was born.

However, that was a long time ago now. I don't think their shtick has lasted and neither of them are particularly good when summarising on their own. Barrie is the better of the two but I don't think either are among the strongest pundits.

Jay Rayner is right though, if you're an expert who can't impart their knowledge very well there's no point getting into punditry.

To use an example from football, Micah Richards and Roy Keane are popular pundits, especially when together, but it's not their in-depth analysis that stands out, it's that they seem naturally entertaining as personalities. I think that's the sort of thing that Sky were going for when they brought in Baz'n'Tez.

[Hopie]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

Devereux didn't pick individuals, he picked on the demographics. Barton very quickly moved on from specific individuals to the whole demographic.

That's nice, but you don't need to quote me and imply that I said otherwise. I was talking about the wider conversation.

[StandOffHalf]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

When that argument was the accepted view, it delivered a lack of diversity. 

True.

Liking the outcome doesn't mean that one has to agree with the process used. 

[Fly-By-TheWire]

12 hours ago, Futtocks said:

You could make a very strong argument for employing someone articulate, perceptive and witty, but with less  actual RL experience.

- "Now let's hear from our pitch-side reporter Jimmy Carr on what was said in the changing rooms at half time. Jimmy?"

- "Thanks Dave Woods. Paul Wellens has instructed Tommy Makinson to go out there and get a grip on things" 

Edited February 2 by Fly-By-TheWire

[RigbyLuger]

5 hours ago, Hopie said:

I really liked Chalmers on the BBC coverage, I've seen him report on other sports too and felt he was always on the lower profile coverage slots and deserved better. I think he is good enough to present any sports show, and his style works. I'd have been happy to see him present coverage of any game in the World Cups, not just the Wheelchair and that felt odd. 
In the same way, the BBC usually have the same female commentator on the women's internationals who is really poor, if there were two men's games on the TV on the same day I don't think she would be in the top 2 choices for those, so she shouldn't be picked when there are 2 games and one is men's and one is women's. It doesn't always have to be the same person, but some kind of hierarchy of quality is good. 
Again during the world cup final, England v France, they had several summarisers who were ex-players of the running game and didn't know the rules. They were clearly not the best choice for the job, so not sure why they were there, as the viewing public needed someone who knew the rules to share some insight into referee decisions.

 
There is clearly a balance here, its true that certain demographics have been excluded from opportunities in society as a whole, and in sport and the media specifically, and still are. However to dismiss criticism of individuals as less worthwhile or honest because they lie within certain demographics is also foolish. The comments about "woke" and "box-ticking" don't ring true for me but I can see where they come from. There is a bit from the latter, and there are also those who benefit from suggesting that there is some kind of "agenda" going on, either as a money making scheme, or as a distraction form other things. Before someone listens to that kind of talk, ask why they are saying it, and what they are trying to gain.

I think that's all a very fair summary. I always look at someone like Mark Chapman, and think of the value for money the BBC get (well, got now) from him compared to some of their other talent because of his versatility.

Now Dave Woods has gone, they've got an interesting conundrum, because I'm not sure they have the commentators available to them for the level of the games they are broadcasting.

[Phil]

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing. Myself and the other touch judge told her to brazen it out and make sure the game was awarded to the opposition, unfortunately she didn’t feel confident that the RFL would back her up and I reffed.

After the game he came up to her and said “sorry but I’m sure you understand”

She told him to eff off left the ground and never officiated again.

This guy is regularly brought up as an RL legend

Shameful

 

[Fly-By-TheWire]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing.

Wasn't aware that women were refereeing in RL in the 90s... you learn something new every day!

Must have been pretty groundbreaking for 30 years ago, for a woman refereeing male divisions in any sport?

Roughly how old was that coach at the time, if you don't mind me asking (for context)?

[FearTheVee]

9 minutes ago, Phil said:

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing. Myself and the other touch judge told her to brazen it out and make sure the game was awarded to the opposition, unfortunately she didn’t feel confident that the RFL would back her up and I reffed.

After the game he came up to her and said “sorry but I’m sure you understand”

She told him to eff off left the ground and never officiated again.

This guy is regularly brought up as an RL legend

Shameful

 

If it's so shameful why are you protecting him by not naming him?

[dkw]

11 minutes ago, Phil said:

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing. Myself and the other touch judge told her to brazen it out and make sure the game was awarded to the opposition, unfortunately she didn’t feel confident that the RFL would back her up and I reffed.

After the game he came up to her and said “sorry but I’m sure you understand”

She told him to eff off left the ground and never officiated again.

This guy is regularly brought up as an RL legend

Shameful

 

Name the prat, backwards buffoons like that shouldn't be allowed the favour of anonymity.

[gingerjon]

14 minutes ago, Phil said:

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing. Myself and the other touch judge told her to brazen it out and make sure the game was awarded to the opposition, unfortunately she didn’t feel confident that the RFL would back her up and I reffed.

After the game he came up to her and said “sorry but I’m sure you understand”

She told him to eff off left the ground and never officiated again.

This guy is regularly brought up as an RL legend

Shameful

 

Any idea if the guy's views have changed?

[Lowdesert]

21 minutes ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

Wasn't aware that women were refereeing in RL in the 90s... you learn something new every day!

Must have been pretty groundbreaking for 30 years ago, for a woman refereeing male divisions in any sport?

Roughly how old was that coach at the time, if you don't mind me asking (for context)?

Julia Lee used to referee in Hull in the mid/late 80’s but in youth!  Not sure when she stepped up to OA.  She works, or used to work for the RFL.  

Could be wrong but I think she went to Oz and became the first, or one of ‘em, female ref there. 
Good referee.

[Fly-By-TheWire]

6 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Julia Lee used to referee in Hull in the mid/late 80’s but in youth!  Not sure when she stepped up to OA.  She works, or used to work for the RFL.  

Could be wrong but I think she went to Oz and became the first, or one of ‘em, female ref there. 
Good referee.

Interesting.   Must have been a very different world back then.   I'm going to make a guess that she was a school teacher in her normal job, or a pub landlady.

Edited February 2 by Fly-By-TheWire

[EggFace]

13 hours ago, StandOffHalf said:

I don't really get the relevance, but I also generally prefer the BBC union panellists over the ITV ones.

Sorry I meant I be watching all games about from anything to do with Italy and just going to focus on the how good and bad the panellists along with the games.

[Phil]

41 minutes ago, dkw said:

Name the prat, backwards buffoons like that shouldn't be allowed the favour of anonymity.

I’m wary of naming him on an open forum, we live in litigious times unfortunately 

[Phil]

42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Any idea if the guy's views have changed?

I really wouldn’t know 

[meast]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

Back in the 90s a very well known rugby league coach refused to send his team onto the field because a woman was refereeing. Myself and the other touch judge told her to brazen it out and make sure the game was awarded to the opposition, unfortunately she didn’t feel confident that the RFL would back her up and I reffed.

After the game he came up to her and said “sorry but I’m sure you understand”

She told him to eff off left the ground and never officiated again.

This guy is regularly brought up as an RL legend

Shameful

 

Couldn't you, as replacement ref, award the game to the opposition?

[Phil]

11 minutes ago, meast said:

Couldn't you, as replacement ref, award the game to the opposition?

Looking back I think we as a team of officials should have refused to go out, but you know, could have, would have, should have 

[Phil]

1 hour ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

Wasn't aware that women were refereeing in RL in the 90s... you learn something new every day!

Must have been pretty groundbreaking for 30 years ago, for a woman refereeing male divisions in any sport?

Roughly how old was that coach at the time, if you don't mind me asking (for context)?

Probably mid 40s I’d say 

[Phil]

6 hours ago, FearTheVee said:

If it's so shameful why are you protecting him by not naming him?

Because I don’t want to end up being sued for slander 

[dkw]

18 hours ago, Phil said:

I’m wary of naming him on an open forum, we live in litigious times unfortunately 

Yeah I did think that after I posted it, dont blame you in fairness.