IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[Chrispmartha]

2 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

Various posters on this forum sugges that only SL clubs have a say in expanding SL.I accept this may not be true.

To be fair, that may be true I'm not sure.

[LeeF]

22 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

No he said he would leave his money in the club in such a way that it improves the financial scoring, isn't that something you said would not be possible to fudge the finances? Then if it wasn't you I apologise for inferring it was.

 You are only allowed to show certain transactions in certain ways and if by his statement he meant equity or capital instead of sponsorship or a different income stream that’s definitely not fudging but you probably already know that

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

To be fair, that may be true I'm not sure.

I should imagine it is very true, I can not see for one moment that SL clubs would allow the L1 clubs or the amatuer game to have a say how their funding would be shared out.

[JonM]

2 hours ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Toulouse will score 1.5 points for population.  Castleford and Wakefield will score 0.5 points. 1 point equates to 9 places on the league ladder. Overcoming poor performance when you're being gifted ridiculous advantages like that probably says more about the scoring system than anything else.

London Broncos having a lower population catchment area than say Whitehaven (and around a third of the catchment population of York) shows just how well thought through the whole system is. I live around 90 minutes drive from York, but count for their population score. Someone living on Riverside Road less than thirty seconds walk away from the Cherry Red Records stadium doesn't count for London Broncos catchment.

[Barley Mow]

9 minutes ago, JonM said:

London Broncos having a lower population catchment area than say Whitehaven (and around a third of the catchment population of York) shows just how well thought through the whole system is. I live around 90 minutes drive from York, but count for their population score. Someone living on Riverside Road less than thirty seconds walk away from the Cherry Red Records stadium doesn't count for London Broncos catchment.

Your general point is correct, but York might not be as good an example as you think - Their score is based on the City of York Council area,. York is not included in the (relatively) new North Yorkshire unitary authority. Living in Wensleydale, you will not count towards their score.

If Scarborough Pirates were still going in the pro-ranks, you would count towards theirs though! 

Edited April 11 by Barley Mow

[JonM]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

Your general point is correct, but the York might not be as good an example as you think - Their score is based on the City of York Council area,. York is not included in the (relatively) new North Yorkshire unitary authority. Living in Wensleydale, you will not count towards their score.

If Scarborough Pirates were still going in the pro-ranks, you would count towards theirs though! 

So out of interest, on what basis do they decide which local council to use? The York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority is in charge of some things - police, fire brigade, quite a big chunk of devolved central government funding for housing, transport, infrastructure etc. and the city council is responsible for others - education & social care for example.  Is it who collects the bins, or who collects speeding tickets that matters  ?

[glossop saint]

29 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

In 2022 Toulouse finished 12th, in 2023 Toulouse finished 14th (2nd in championship), in 2024 its possible to get relegated from 12th but to be on the safe side lets say they finished 13th in the championship (25th overall) So 12+14+25=51. If we divide 51 by 3 we get 17 which would be there or thereabouts where Toulouse would finish on the performance ladder.  The population point would improve that position by 9 places on Wakefield and Castleford.  So, by my calculations it seems it would be possible for them to get relegated and still achieve SL. It would seem the original poster may be correct even though we both know Toulouse won't get relegated. Hope you enjoyed the maths.

I always enjoy maths! But sorry about the sarky comment, it was uncalled for.

Thanks for explaining that in more detail and you are correct that the averaging out over three years does make a difference. However that would represent a fall in their performance score meaning that there would have to be an improvement elsewhere (not in the population as that won't change). That still means a significant strengthening of the club would be needed and thus suggesting they are the right club to have in SL.

[Harry Stottle]

32 minutes ago, LeeF said:

 You are only allowed to show certain transactions in certain ways and if by his statement he meant equity or capital instead of sponsorship or a different income stream that’s definitely not fudging but you probably already know that

Here you are Lee, Mr B explains what he is doing financially, for the next gradings, no need to watch it all look from 15:00mins to 21:00mins.

This was from December 23.

Edited April 11 by Harry Stottle

[Barley Mow]

9 minutes ago, JonM said:

So out of interest, on what basis do they decide which local council to use? The York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority is in charge of some things - police, fire brigade, quite a big chunk of devolved central government funding for housing, transport, infrastructure etc. and the city council is responsible for others - education & social care for example.  Is it who collects the bins, or who collects speeding tickets that matters  ?

It's who collects the bins!

Workington and Whitehaven were due to be assessed based on their district councils, but Cumberland unitary authority came into being last April, so they now share the same Council (and catchment area).

So in North Yorkshire, if there were pro-teams in Scarborough and Skipton, they would share a catchment. But one in Redcar would have it's own catchment area, as does York.

[Taffy Tiger]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

It won't happen Taffy by design or by default, the RL are not expecting it to and I should imagine that is after consultation with IMG, why else would they announce that the Championship - 14 clubs and L1 - 10 clubs are amalgamating to make 2 x 12 leagues.

Hi Harry , you are right ,  it certainly won't happen next year or maybe 2/3 , but IMG have said that they are hoping that enough teams reach Cat A status to be able to expand SL in the future . Their 'plan' is over a 12 year period , so best not to rush these things I suppose and allow teams to get a solid foundation in place for the future .

 

The one thing that may bring an increase to 14 SL teams sooner rather than later , would be an agreement from the French clubs to self fund . That would allow 2 more teams from UK to join at no loss of money to these clubs , and with this would come a natural end to the loop fixtures which so many people seem to dislike .

Edited April 11 by Taffy Tiger

[LeeF]

1 minute ago, Barley Mow said:

It's who collects the bins!

Workington and Whitehaven were due to be assessed based on their district councils, but Cumberland unitary authority came into being last April, so they now share the same Council (and catchment area).

So in North Yorkshire, if there were pro-teams in Scarborough and Skipton, they would share a catchment. But one in Redcar would have it's own catchment area, as does York.

So if they move to only collecting your bins once a month from every fortnight does this impact? If not then it should otherwise it’s a farce

[Barley Mow]

5 minutes ago, LeeF said:

So if they move to only collecting your bins once a month from every fortnight does this impact? If not then it should otherwise it’s a farce

In that situation, I suggest the clubs take advantage of the gap in the market and earn some money emptying bins to boost their finances score.

I could just see George Williams driving the lorry while Ben Currie collects the bins! 

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

49 minutes ago, JonM said:

London Broncos having a lower population catchment area than say Whitehaven (and around a third of the catchment population of York) shows just how well thought through the whole system is. I live around 90 minutes drive from York, but count for their population score. Someone living on Riverside Road less than thirty seconds walk away from the Cherry Red Records stadium doesn't count for London Broncos catchment.

The thing is Jon, ignore the local authority, how many people live within say 30 minutes of Wimbledon, must be hundreds of thousands if not millions.  London shouldn't receive points for population, nobody should.  The population alone gives you a much better chance of pulling a crowd if there's any interest there. 

[Taffy Tiger]

3 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

So when you have 12 clubs who all have security from relegation,you have a closed shop.Where is the incentive for the majority of clubs iin RL to improve.Will IMG come up with something for them or will their job be done once they have sorted out the elite.

Hi gittinsfan

 

I don't think that is the case . All teams (inc Cat A teams) are assessed on an annual basis . A team can be Cat A and guaranteed SL rugby one year and the following year they could fall below Cat A status with no guarantee of a SL spot .

Added to this any team who gets a Cat A status will be allowed a place in SL , so even if 12 clubs make Cat A , it still wouldn't be a closed shop , as there is the guarantee that any other team (other than these 12 ) will gain automatic entry , but it would be into an expanded SL.

 

Every club now has a goal to aim for that would guarantee a SL place . This has never happened before.  Of course that goal will be too high for many at the moment , but it doesn't mean that will always be the case . For the first time in over 20 years there is a good chance that more than one team could be promoted from the Championship . Not bad to say that they are supposedly at a 'massive disadvantage' to the current SL clubs , one of which we know for sure will not be in SL in 2025 . 

[gittinsfan]

1 hour ago, Taffy Tiger said:

Hi gittinsfan

 

I don't think that is the case . All teams (inc Cat A teams) are assessed on an annual basis . A team can be Cat A and guaranteed SL rugby one year and the following year they could fall below Cat A status with no guarantee of a SL spot .

Added to this any team who gets a Cat A status will be allowed a place in SL , so even if 12 clubs make Cat A , it still wouldn't be a closed shop , as there is the guarantee that any other team (other than these 12 ) will gain automatic entry , but it would be into an expanded SL.

 

Every club now has a goal to aim for that would guarantee a SL place . This has never happened before.  Of course that goal will be too high for many at the moment , but it doesn't mean that will always be the case . For the first time in over 20 years there is a good chance that more than one team could be promoted from the Championship . Not bad to say that they are supposedly at a 'massive disadvantage' to the current SL clubs , one of which we know for sure will not be in SL in 2025 . 

Hello Taffy

I think it's already been discussed that SL are unlikely to expand from 12.

Once we have the closed shop of 12 grade A clubs what catastrophic event is going to happen to allow a Championship grade B to overcome a grade A.

[headtackle]

Once we go to what will effectively be an IMG closed shop we have "franchises" by default

In that case seeing we have a lot of clubs in very close proximity to each other would we ever see the situation they have in America where a franchise can move town/city 

Not been seen yet in this country other than MK Dons in football - tough but eventually worked out. Will we see someone buying the license for say Hull, Cas, Wakefield (if they come back) and upping sticks 

As a lot of our club's finances are tight wouldn't cost that much so wonder if that forms any of IMG thinking. 

[Taffy Tiger]

10 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

Hello Taffy

I think it's already been discussed that SL are unlikely to expand from 12.

Once we have the closed shop of 12 grade A clubs what catastrophic event is going to happen to allow a Championship grade B to overcome a grade A.

Thanks for the reply gittinsfan . I think that SL is almost certain to expand during the IMG period . You are right , nothing will allow any Cat B to overcome a Cat A . However , if that Cat B then becomes a Cat A they will join SL alongside any other already established Cat A teams.

 

There are already 7 Cat A teams and if DB is to be believed (no reason to doubt him) , then Leigh will become the 8th Cat A team at the end of this season . Cas, Salford , Huddersfield , Wakey , Toulouse and Bradford are all going in the right direction to reach the standard required for a Cat A .

The only way SL becomes a closed shop with 12 teams will be if no other team can make the grade . Under those circumstances ,  I think that would be a fair enough reason to stick at 12. 

Let's also remember that there has been speculation that Toulouse may join Catalans in SL , with both clubs self funding . If that is the case then the most logical solution would be to add 12 UK teams to give a 14 team SL with no need for a reduction in UK teams money and also put an end to loop fixtures.

Just my opinion of course .

Thanks again for the reply

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Barley Mow said:

It's who collects the bins!

Workington and Whitehaven were due to be assessed based on their district councils, but Cumberland unitary authority came into being last April, so they now share the same Council (and catchment area).

So in North Yorkshire, if there were pro-teams in Scarborough and Skipton, they would share a catchment. But one in Redcar would have it's own catchment area, as does York.

If that's true, it just demonstrates the nonsense that the current method of measurement of catchment is. York can include the population of Skipton, Whitby and Hawes but Castleford can't include Allerton Bywater, two miles away (maybe less).

I'm not against catchment, I just think it's done very poorly.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

If that's true, it just demonstrates the nonsense that the current method of measurement of catchment is. York can include the population of Skipton, Whitby and Hawes but Castleford can't include Allerton Bywater, two miles away (maybe less).

I'm not against catchment, I just think it's done very poorly.

I just don't see the point of it at all, catchment comes down to possible sales which means absolute zilch if nothing is sold, it is the numbers through the gates which matter.

[The Future is League]

7 hours ago, gittinsfan said:

So when you have 12 clubs who all have security from relegation,you have a closed shop.Where is the incentive for the majority of clubs iin RL to improve.Will IMG come up with something for them or will their job be done once they have sorted out the elite.

When you can't make the play offs and there is no relegation that is the time to blood young players as you prepare for the next season.

[Tommygilf]

14 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

When you can't make the play offs and there is no relegation that is the time to blood young players as you prepare for the next season.

And if they are smart, they'll want a good finish to the season to improve the optimism and hope for next season amongst fans.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

1 hour ago, The Future is League said:

When you can't make the play offs and there is no relegation that is the time to blood young players as you prepare for the next season.

They'll probably just expand the numbers who qualify for the play offs. After 6 games this season I'd suggest the top ten may be the way to go.

[glossop saint]

29 minutes ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

They'll probably just expand the numbers who qualify for the play offs. After 6 games this season I'd suggest the top ten may be the way to go.

Isn't that what some people to want? Every game to matter. Everyone having something to play for right until the end.

[Pulga]

On 10/04/2024 at 17:21, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Rugby league has been dying or dead in this country for the last fifty years if you believe what you read. It's still here. Trust me, it could survive relegating Hull, Leeds, Warrington, whoever. Locking in the same teams who in your opinion have put it on life support will make no difference whatsoever.

So has rugby union in this country. It's just the last 5 years that it's been terminal. The sporting landscape is changing faster than it has in history and RL in England wasn't keeping up before and certainly isn't now. 

 

[Griff]

47 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

Isn't that what some people to want? Every game to matter. Everyone having something to play for right until the end.

Knock out cups, then.