IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[OdsalBull]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well no, its a 4 horse race, hence why I said 10-13. One of those horses isn't Bradford though. If you yourself don't think you can make the improvements to get there in 1 season then you obviously agree.

To be honest I am not sure, we are in with a chance we are not a million miles away. I don't personally know which areas we need to improve so cannot comment but we definitely have a chance

[Dovster]

1 hour ago, Ragingbull said:

Keighley owners at is again.  

Apparently they are insulted at being ranked 30 out of 35 so have issued the most pathetic statement. 

Absolute tin pot of a club. 

OK I guess I'll bite.

Are Keighley not entitled to have an opinion without being slagged off by your good self?

My advice to you would be not to read any future Keighley statements as it seems to make you very angry.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

I think this is the answer to your question:

 

Leigh could finish 6th next year and they will still get fewer than the 3.25 performance points on the current table. 

If they have a poor season, they are at risk. 

[Zilla Budgie]

So you don't have to finish bottom of SL to be relegated ? Or the 12 placed club could stay in the division, while 11th placed Leigh (for example) are relegated. Is this correct? It's just a cousin of licensing, in my opinion if this is the case.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Zilla Budgie

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

I think you get a bonus for winning the champ, otherwise yes. Tracked over a 3 year period though, you could be awful in the Championship or even league 1 and then do a London. 

It's too confusing and i ask the same question: when will a team and the fans, the really important fans, know what is required to be promoted / not relegated? At the start of the season? Mid? After? 

before I write the below the genuine answer is "I dont know".

However, in many other leagues in other sports around the world that have strict minimum standards you know before the season starts that team xyz are not going to go up if they finish top, therefore you know you only need to worry (if you are a bottom/near bottom side) if team abc or def, who do meet the criteria, are getting towards the top. That can also change, I remember a few years ago with the RU that championship Doncaster would get promoted if they finished top but only if planning permission came through for a new stand, that was still going on throughout the season. 

Therefore you would hope that you get a firm idea at the beginning with that potential movement and keeping an eye on it and how that would affect the grade, therefore you know pretty much by the end of the season that the fight for bottom is a relegation scrap or not.. 

Before anyone says "but thats rubbish and takes away xyz" i dont disagree but it works very well in many other countries with many many sports (and in this with sports at different levels of pyramids too).. so its not unprecedented

To be fair we are here to a part due to our past. Early 2000s the bottom club wasnt always relegated if the team below didnt meet minimum standards IIRC, sadly that was binned off due to it not being true to the spirit of P&R and now we are here... this could have been solved back then TBF

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

A single year's points. No. 

12th receive 2.778 points.

Winner of champ would get 2.778 (presumably 13th as winner of the play offs) and then a bonus of 0.25 giving them a better performance. 

However. Over 3 years.... 

It's too complicated!!

Thanks. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Leigh could finish 6th next year and they will still get fewer than the 3.25 performance points on the current table. 

If they have a poor season, they are at risk. 

IMG obviously feels that investors in the game like Del Boy are those the sport can do without.

[dboy]

17 minutes ago, Damien said:

It does all seem up for grabs between 10-13.

Obviously if Cas are correct and they get another 0.5 that would make them safe you'd imagine. If not they are in big trouble. You can now see why they are desperate to make those small improvements to their ground, as per their recent statement, to improve their score.

Another year in SL will only improve the Leigh score slightly if they don't finish bottom, as their 2021 bottom finish drops out of the average, and where they finish next year will be pretty crucial. They will lose their 0.25 Challenge Cup win bonus though so may be worse off. You'd imagine the rest would be much the same.

A year less in SL goes against Wakefield and makes their finishing position next season really important. There are unknowns with the new owner and new stand. They will have already got some points for finance and stadium so it's just a matter of how much more they can wring out of it.

Toulouse may see a drop as their Championship and Grand Final winning season 2 seasons ago will fall out of the 3 years average. I doubt Toulouse can improve elsewhere either. 

Obviously other factors some into play too but if Cas are wrong they look pretty certain to be 13th on the face of it. If not then league placings could be pretty crucial between Cas, Leigh, Toulouse and Wakefield and even the Championship Grand Final 0.25 point bonus could be key. Leigh could well be pretty vulnerable once they lose the 0.25 bonus and it looks between them and Cas for me.

They have had the points for big screen, but nothing else yet.

The new stand has not been in use and was not scored and I'd hope that the LED boards will be added also this coming year.

I'm sure they'll be targeting a high finish/win GF and an 1895 cup win.

They will score more next year than they did this year.

[Tommygilf]

All about what is done with this information now!

The results really aren't surprising. London are a shell of a club - Sandal RU are in a better position financially. The positions 10-14 indicate where clubs need to improve, Leigh, whilst good on field and playing out of a good venue, appear very reliant on Beaumont and lack some aspects of infrastructure for example, Cas are strong as a club at that level but really lack that infrastructure to take them to the next level. Bradford are the biggest club in England outside the top flight and do have better facilities than Cas for example. Odsal is a hole, but the bits that are serviceable are actually still alright.

As I said its now what is done about these scores. If clubs see them as a challenge to rise to and to address their deficiencies then great. If they take what looks like the Cas approach to complain about things that just scrape them into being a higher B (not dealing with major issues that will make them an A) showing how they can't see the wood for the trees, then they will fall behind.

[Forever Trinity]

23 minutes ago, Damien said:

It does all seem up for grabs between 10-13.

Obviously if Cas are correct and they get another 0.5 that would make them safe you'd imagine. If not they are in big trouble. You can now see why they are desperate to make those small improvements to their ground, as per their recent statement, to improve their score.

Another year in SL will only improve the Leigh score slightly if they don't finish bottom, as their 2021 bottom finish drops out of the average, and where they finish next year will be pretty crucial. They will lose their 0.25 Challenge Cup win bonus though so may be worse off. You'd imagine the rest would be much the same.

A year less in SL goes against Wakefield and makes their finishing position next season really important. There are unknowns with the new owner and new stand. They will have already got some points for finance and stadium so it's just a matter of how much more they can wring out of it.

Toulouse may see a drop as their Championship and Grand Final winning season 2 seasons ago will fall out of the 3 years average. I doubt Toulouse can improve elsewhere either. 

Obviously other factors some into play too but if Cas are wrong they look pretty certain to be 13th on the face of it. If not then league placings could be pretty crucial between Cas, Leigh, Toulouse and Wakefield and even the Championship Grand Final 0.25 point bonus could be key. Leigh could well be pretty vulnerable once they lose the 0.25 bonus and it looks between them and Cas for me.

They have got nothing for the stand or for the finance of Ellis, firstly the stand isn't completed and Matt took over this week officially, they will feature massively going forwards. Little or non of the new facilities have been counted as yet.

[LeytherRob]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Will Leigh get a boost? They will lose the boost they got from the Cup win (unless they win again). A 12th placed finish will rolloff. There is a chance that Leigh's score may go down next year. If Cas' score is adjusted now, Leigh are already 13th.

Leigh's score will undoubtedly go up next year, it's just a case of whether or not(and how much by) the others do. It's not just a 12th place finish dropping out the stats, it's a commercially disastrous year of poor performance on and off the field vs a season with what will likely be an increase on 2023's strong crowds/revenue. Things like turnover, stadium utilization(which is essentially just a duplicate measure of average crowds), fandom will all be boosted quite considerably. 

It really is a shame that there is such a lack of transparency, because these gradings as presented are actually pretty useless in some respect of predicting where everyone is for next year when these things fully count. It would be interesting to see a year by year scoring for each club and more importantly, the scores based only on the 2-year data that will count for next year(2022-2023 minus any trophy bonuses). Only then could you see what each club needed from 2024, as it stands it's all a bit of a mystery

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, OdsalBull said:

To be honest I am not sure, we are in with a chance we are not a million miles away. I don't personally know which areas we need to improve so cannot comment but we definitely have a chance

Just on this general point, and not you or Bradford specifically. For stuff like finance and league placings its a 3 year average and I think people forget this.

With points already accounted for in these provisional rankings there is only so much improvement a team can do in 1 year to try and improve their scores. It's not going to be a case of huge jumps.

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

All about what is done with this information now!

The results really aren't surprising. London are a shell of a club - Sandal RU are in a better position financially. The positions 10-14 indicate where clubs need to improve, Leigh, whilst good on field and playing out of a good venue, appear very reliant on Beaumont and lack some aspects of infrastructure for example, Cas are strong as a club at that level but really lack that infrastructure to take them to the next level. Bradford are the biggest club in England outside the top flight and do have better facilities than Cas for example. Odsal is a hole, but the bits that are serviceable are actually still alright.

As I said its now what is done about these scores. If clubs see them as a challenge to rise to and to address their deficiencies then great. If they take what looks like the Cas approach to complain about things that just scrape them into being a higher B (not dealing with major issues that will make them an A) showing how they can't see the wood for the trees, then they will fall behind.

Precisely

This whole process is about improving the clubs, if some aren't up for that then they will fall behind.

[Dave T]

Just now, LeytherRob said:

Leigh's score will undoubtedly go up next year, it's just a case of whether or not(and how much by) the others do. It's not just a 12th place finish dropping out the stats, it's a commercially disastrous year of poor performance on and off the field vs a season with what will likely be an increase on 2023's strong crowds/revenue. Things like turnover, stadium utilization(which is essentially just a duplicate measure of average crowds), fandom will all be boosted quite considerably. 

It really is a shame that there is such a lack of transparency, because these gradings as presented are actually pretty useless in some respect of predicting where everyone is for next year when these things fully count. It would be interesting to see a year by year scoring for each club and more importantly, the scores based only on the 2-year data that will count for next year(2022-2023 minus any trophy bonuses). Only then could you see what each club needed from 2024, as it stands it's all a bit of a mystery

I'm not so sure. As we can see, the difference between top Championship clubs and lower SL clubs is negligible. The financial score isnt going to change from memory really. 

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Leigh could finish 6th next year and they will still get fewer than the 3.25 performance points on the current table. 

If they have a poor season, they are at risk. 

Results aren't everything, London coming up, in the shape they are, proves why this should be the case.

[RigbyLuger]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

All about what is done with this information now!

The results really aren't surprising. London are a shell of a club - Sandal RU are in a better position financially. The positions 10-14 indicate where clubs need to improve, Leigh, whilst good on field and playing out of a good venue, appear very reliant on Beaumont and lack some aspects of infrastructure for example, Cas are strong as a club at that level but really lack that infrastructure to take them to the next level. Bradford are the biggest club in England outside the top flight and do have better facilities than Cas for example. Odsal is a hole, but the bits that are serviceable are actually still alright.

As I said its now what is done about these scores. If clubs see them as a challenge to rise to and to address their deficiencies then great. If they take what looks like the Cas approach to complain about things that just scrape them into being a higher B (not dealing with major issues that will make them an A) showing how they can't see the wood for the trees, then they will fall behind.

Explain that to this bloke. 

 

 

 

[phiggins]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

It does all seem up for grabs between 10-13.

Obviously if Cas are correct and they get another 0.5 that would make them safe you'd imagine. If not they are in big trouble. You can now see why they are desperate to make those small improvements to their ground, as per their recent statement, to improve their score.

Another year in SL will only improve the Leigh score slightly if they don't finish bottom, as their 2021 bottom finish drops out of the average, and where they finish next year will be pretty crucial. They will lose their 0.25 Challenge Cup win bonus though so may be worse off. You'd imagine the rest would be much the same.

A year less in SL goes against Wakefield and makes their finishing position next season really important. There are unknowns with the new owner and new stand. They will have already got some points for finance and stadium so it's just a matter of how much more they can wring out of it.

Toulouse may see a drop as their Championship and Grand Final winning season 2 seasons ago will fall out of the 3 years average. I doubt Toulouse can improve elsewhere either. 

Obviously other factors some into play too but if Cas are wrong they look pretty certain to be 13th on the face of it. If not then league placings could be pretty crucial between Cas, Leigh, Toulouse and Wakefield and even the Championship Grand Final 0.25 point bonus could be key. Leigh could well be pretty vulnerable once they lose the 0.25 bonus and it looks between them and Cas for me.

Yes, Leigh do look pretty vulnerable. It does seem strange that when it comes to next season's grades, Leigh's challenge cup win will count for nothing, but the attendances and league positions from previous years do count, and will hold them back. For example, I think it's impossible for Leigh to gain any extra points on attendances next year, while 2022 figures remain on record. Yet the bonus scores achieved in 2022 are long gone, as with the challenge cup win this year.

This whole thing seems a mess, and will lead to clubs scratching around for 0.1 point here and 0.2 there, instead of implementing an overall strategy across the club. Leigh will try to find a way to manufacture extra website visits and social media engagements, which as standalone metrics are absolutely meaningless when it comes to measuring the effectiveness of those channels.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:

Precisely

This whole process is about improving the clubs, if some aren't up for that then they will fall behind.

Exactly, its laying it out for what is good for the whole sport too in terms of broadcast and media facilities. Making the game easier to sell and access beyond those on the terraces. Additionally sponsor areas, RL Commercial should be able to take any prospective or current partner to any Super League ground and receive a good minimum standard for corporate facilities. 

I sincerely hope Cas etc are encouraged to drive up their efforts towards long term benefits because of these results.

[Guest]

So if you get LED lights - does that only count for 1 year out of 3.

Even though you actually have the LED lights now - so whether you had then 3 years ago seems pretty irrelevant?

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Explain that to this bloke. 

 

 

 

Did he come up with that all by himself 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

Explain that to this bloke. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately my twitter is set to private but if anyone would like to use my post to reply to him then feel free!

[Ragingbull]

14 minutes ago, Dovster said:

OK I guess I'll bite.

Are Keighley not entitled to have an opinion without being slagged off by your good self?

My advice to you would be not to read any future Keighley statements as it seems to make you very angry.

Far from angry. Its quite the opposite.

Its given me a good chuckle, laughing at how pathetic and petty they are. 

 

[Bull Mania]

25 minutes ago, crashmon said:

This actually looks about what I would expect tbh

SL chairman have 2 goals

1) Get lots of money from Sky
2) Get lots of money from high attendances (not just gate money, but also food and drink sold at the stadium)

So  Which Champ club might bring the most away fans ??  Bradford in the minds of the SL chairman

So lets rig it so at the end of next year we relegate london and promote Bradford....

IMG just dance to the SL Chairman... 

OFC it will all fall flat and most of them will  end up with even less than they have now....

Not having a dig at bradford fans here or even bradford,,, but this looks like a fix to get Bradford back in SL.... 

I mean they've had 9 years to "rig the system"  to get us back in SL and never have. 

Also despite all the outcry on here, the IMG gradings have Bradford "checks notes", still outside SL...

Anyway personal preference is it should be decided on the field. Thay would stop most of the bickering. (although not all as some would still blame a ref) 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Bull Mania

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

So if you get LED lights - does that only count for 1 year out of 3.

Even though you actually have the LED lights now - so whether you had then 3 years ago seems pretty irrelevant?

No, it is only utilisation I think in the Stadium criteria that is a 3 year average. I presume next year is key for the rest.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Damien

[Fevrover]

1 hour ago, MattSantos said:

Ultimately, we like RL because of what happens on the pitch.

I'm so very confused and i'm trying to work out my motivation to follow my club next year.

If Fev beat Bradford in the Grand Final and we somehow end up with 0.1 fewer points than the 12th team in SL or indeed Bradford, we won't be promoted. Also, and perhaps more importantly, when will we know what we need to do to be promoted? Will it before the season? After? It feels like a horrible drawn out version of VAR... can i celebrate or what?

 

Ask Gav Wilson of York he seems to know everything.