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IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)


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5 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

   It's going to be fun if Leigh don't make it(i hope and think they will)Beaumont will not be a happy bunny.

If Leigh did go down under this system, I wonder what the press would make of it not in a Rugby League sense but a sporting sense. Leigh a club who last season won one of the games prestigious events, a club who in the last two seasons has increased its support base from less that 3000 to over 8,000 average and still with 3 home games to go could have 3 maximum crowds, a club who have most likely finished in the top half of the league ladder, a club who does the 'sought after' matchday expierence better if not the best of the all the clubs.

But in this IMG system sporting prowess comes secondary to keyboard inputs and spreadsheet tables.

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3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So with all those positives Toulouse have, why could they have not done what Leigh have done Leigh relegated '21 one season in the Championship with a very concerted effort to bounce straight back with a 5 year plan from one man and a much weaker sponsorship portfolio.

Toulouse releagted '22 could have made a concerted effort to strengthen the playing roster to get into SL this season, knowing that it was the last opportunity to secure it on the field of play. Where was and is the buisness link and sponsorship to have made it happen? Does the ambition of all this wealth of a big city club not ride as high as a little club from a small town?

I think your presumptions may be correct to score highly with IMG, but that is what they are presumptions there is nothing tangible is there Damien? again it is down to that word 'Potential'.

I honestly do not think that they are as flushed or as potentially flushed as they make out and people want to believe they are, and as I say in my opinion they are reliant on getting the SL nod this time, failure to do that and they will resign from the RFL, unless this 'pretty impressive' sponsorship portfolio and business links back them if they go back into the Championship, what do you think?

PS, sorry for adding to my many posts on this IMG thread, but you did quote me, and as I said Iike to respond to quotes.

Leigh have had 3 goes at Super League over almost 20 years. It took that long for them to get their act together and then only did so brought on by the changes needed by IMG and the fear of them missing out altogether.

I'm not sure why you would expect Toulouse to do the same in 2 years, particularly when the process was announced to be changed at the end of their season in SL and when it was made quite clear what they need to do (as it was for all teams). You should also know yourself how relegation can affect a club after Leigh's relegation's and Beaumont's hissy fits about cancelling contracts, scrapping reserves, walking out etc in the past after relegation.

Since then what they have done so far is doing was enough to score well in he indictive grades, 10th in fact and higher than Leigh who you wish them to copy. Now that may well change, and probably will, but there is nothing particularly in it for them to take the approach that you want.

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5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If Leigh did go down under this system, I wonder what the press would make of it not in a Rugby League sense but a sporting sense. Leigh a club who last season won one of the games prestigious events, a club who in the last two seasons has increased its support base from less that 3000 to over 8,000 average and still with 3 home games to go could have 3 maximum crowds, a club who have most likely finished in the top half of the league ladder, a club who does the 'sought after' matchday expierence better if not the best of the all the clubs.

But in this IMG system sporting prowess comes secondary to keyboard inputs and spreadsheet tables.

IMG are a busted flush. This time next year, they'll be gone and their spreadsheets with them.

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28 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

If Leigh did go down under this system, I wonder what the press would make of it not in a Rugby League sense but a sporting sense. Leigh a club who last season won one of the games prestigious events, a club who in the last two seasons has increased its support base from less that 3000 to over 8,000 average and still with 3 home games to go could have 3 maximum crowds, a club who have most likely finished in the top half of the league ladder, a club who does the 'sought after' matchday expierence better if not the best of the all the clubs.

But in this IMG system sporting prowess comes secondary to keyboard inputs and spreadsheet tables.

What press? It will hardly touch the sides which is part of the problem that IMG are trying to fix! Whether they can/will or not is a different matter but the low profile etc is a massive problem and we have single handedly failed to solve it over 20+ years.. sometimes big changes are needed to make moves forward... too much "standing still" but in reality going backwards. 

As I've said all along, I've no idea if IMG will make it work, no one can, but the RFL have shown they cannot so maybe it's worth a try. 

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Isn't the TV deal up for re-negotiation next year? 

Depending on the indicative gradings this year would it be possible that IMG are trying to manoeuvre the game to a place where it can bring a potential 14 team comp to the table in 2026 (with 2 guaranteed French teams for a bonus French deal)...?

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1 minute ago, Gav Wilson said:

Isn't the TV deal up for re-negotiation next year? 

Depending on the indicative gradings this year would it be possible that IMG are trying to manoeuvre the game to a place where it can bring a potential 14 team comp to the table in 2026 (with 2 guaranteed French teams for a bonus French deal)...?

2026 would seem way too early for 14 grade A clubs, wouldn't it? And there would have been much better mechanisms to achieve that than these gradings, surely?

It looks to me as if we will head into the 2026+ negotiations with pretty much the same hand we had a year ago. 

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

Leigh have had 3 goes at Super League over almost 20 years. It took that long for them to get their act together and then only did so brought on by the changes needed by IMG and the fear of them missing out altogether.

I'm not sure why you would expect Toulouse to do the same in 2 years, particularly when the process was announced to be changed at the end of their season in SL and when it was made quite clear what they need to do (as it was for all teams). You should also know yourself how relegation can affect a club after Leigh's relegation's and Beaumont's hissy fits about cancelling contracts, scrapping reserves, walking out etc in the past after relegation.

Since then what they have done so far is doing was enough to score well in he indictive grades, 10th in fact and higher than Leigh who you wish them to copy. Now that may well change, and probably will, but there is nothing particularly in it for them to take the approach that you want.

Not sure I agree entirely with this. The work done by Leigh to get to where they are now likely started in 2021, with the failed academy license application, when the plan was always to reapply for a license in 2025. It was at this point that the club would start to plan ahead, with the first obstable being to get promoted again. The theory was that no academy license application would be taken seriously from outside SL, some may agree others won't, but that was the thinking.

The whole leopards thing had also been in the works for some time. The team wore Leopard print at the Summer Bash 2022, around the time that the partnership with IMG was being announced. Beaumont does however credit IMG with the work he did around the matchday experience, but even that was before the grading system was known, and he was expecting a license process.

He has of course made plenty of mistakes, scrapping the reserves in 2016, appointing Keiron Cunningham in 2017, having head coaches in SL with little more than local amateur coaching experience. But he has tried to operate under the ever changing systems that have been in place at the time. One (of several) thing that I find irritating about this system is Leigh's grading score is being dragged down by the finances and attendances in 2022, when the club were operating under a completely different system, and nothing about IMG, or this system, was known about. That does not seem right to me.

As for Toulouse, I don't know enough about them to comment on them. But if they do go up, we know there will be a cost associated with having 2 overseas teams in the league. And without a strategy / plan in place to make the most of whatever opportunity this brings, then it could end up doing no good for anybody.

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12 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

Isn't the TV deal up for re-negotiation next year? 

Depending on the indicative gradings this year would it be possible that IMG are trying to manoeuvre the game to a place where it can bring a potential 14 team comp to the table in 2026 (with 2 guaranteed French teams for a bonus French deal)...?

It's a 3 year TV deal, so negotiations may start next year, but no new deal would take effect until 2027 season. But a 14 team league, incluing 2 from France does make sense, as long as we know why we want 2 teams in France and what we'd do with it, such as the French TV deal you mention.

The resistence to 14 teams is pretty frustrating. Keep hearing reasons why it can't happen. Clubs might lose an extra tenner of the ever decreasing TV money. Not enough players (maybe with more top flight clubs, more players might get a chance!), some fascination with loop fixtures including a desparation to half fill St James' park every year.

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14 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Not sure I agree entirely with this. The work done by Leigh to get to where they are now likely started in 2021, with the failed academy license application, when the plan was always to reapply for a license in 2025. It was at this point that the club would start to plan ahead, with the first obstable being to get promoted again. The theory was that no academy license application would be taken seriously from outside SL, some may agree others won't, but that was the thinking.

The whole leopards thing had also been in the works for some time. The team wore Leopard print at the Summer Bash 2022, around the time that the partnership with IMG was being announced. Beaumont does however credit IMG with the work he did around the matchday experience, but even that was before the grading system was known, and he was expecting a license process.

He has of course made plenty of mistakes, scrapping the reserves in 2016, appointing Keiron Cunningham in 2017, having head coaches in SL with little more than local amateur coaching experience. But he has tried to operate under the ever changing systems that have been in place at the time. One (of several) thing that I find irritating about this system is Leigh's grading score is being dragged down by the finances and attendances in 2022, when the club were operating under a completely different system, and nothing about IMG, or this system, was known about. That does not seem right to me.

As for Toulouse, I don't know enough about them to comment on them. But if they do go up, we know there will be a cost associated with having 2 overseas teams in the league. And without a strategy / plan in place to make the most of whatever opportunity this brings, then it could end up doing no good for anybody.

Your last paragraph is absolutely key and it's about planning.. every expansion etc has to be underpinned with a plan for the issues that will beset it.. we have neve really done that before (arguably catalans and their grace period and notice period for stepping up is the only occasion and it has been successful, but let's not argue whether they were expansion or not, they were the league expanding).. 

It's kne of the key things where I do belive IMG may (stress on may) get it right, they have 12 years and will have a plan l, we have never seen that sort of thing before to be honest.

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46 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

2026 would seem way too early for 14 grade A clubs, wouldn't it? And there would have been much better mechanisms to achieve that than these gradings, surely?

It looks to me as if we will head into the 2026+ negotiations with pretty much the same hand we had a year ago. 

Madness that it looks like we are going to have the majority of teams in SL after this season with Grade A's or very close. There seems very little reason there can't be 12 by 2026. I can only imagine that IMG change the gradings at some point as there seems very little incentive for teams to improve once they hit grade A and with it been nearly impossible after this season for any Championship team to realistically get close to 15 points after this season we will be struck with pretty much what we have ie. 11/12 comfortable clubs(likely 12) and very little pressure on them to push the game forward.

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36 minutes ago, phiggins said:

It's a 3 year TV deal, so negotiations may start next year, but no new deal would take effect until 2027 season. But a 14 team league, incluing 2 from France does make sense, as long as we know why we want 2 teams in France and what we'd do with it, such as the French TV deal you mention.

The resistence to 14 teams is pretty frustrating. Keep hearing reasons why it can't happen. Clubs might lose an extra tenner of the ever decreasing TV money. Not enough players (maybe with more top flight clubs, more players might get a chance!), some fascination with loop fixtures including a desparation to half fill St James' park every year.

I completely agree with this and have long wanted a 14 team SL. It has to be the goal and from what we have heard from IMG is.

If we have 14 teams that are all scoring well and are close to 'A' status, with very little difference between them, it makes sense to me just to go to 14 now. Based on what we know and can gather I suspect there will be 14 strongish teams and a gap to 15. If that's the case then I'm not sure what is to be gained by cutting one or two teams out because of a fraction of a point.

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2 hours ago, Damien said:

1. Leigh have had 3 goes at Super League over almost 20 years. It took that long for them to get their act together and then only did so brought on by the changes needed by IMG and the fear of them missing out altogether.

2 . I'm not sure why you would expect Toulouse to do the same in 2 years, particularly when the process was announced to be changed at the end of their season in SL and when it was made quite clear what they need to do (as it was for all teams). You should also know yourself how relegation can affect a club after Leigh's relegation's and Beaumont's hissy fits about cancelling contracts, scrapping reserves, walking out etc in the past after relegation.

3. Since then what they have done so far is doing was enough to score well in he indictive grades, 10th in fact and higher than Leigh who you wish them to copy. Now that may well change, and probably will, but there is nothing particularly in it for them to take the approach that you want.

1. So you persist on bring that up again re IMG forcing Leigh into doing what they have done, I explained to you that it was a 5 year plan, which was originated in 2021, to do something entirely different to what they did on previous visits to SL, failed 3 times before, but this time it worked.

2. Again if a little town club with one man and a few smallish sponsers can acheive it, why not a very big city team that you admit has massive sponsers and buisness contacts, I would suggest that it is not what you think it is and just name dropping, as for Leigh's previous failures let me refer you again to the 5 year plan. 

3. Had they copied Leigh they would have been an incumbent of SL now and in a much stronger position to maintain that standing, perhaps those big buisness and sponsers would have come out of the woodwork had they been in SL.

I asked you if Toulouse fail to get into SL this time, what do you think will happen my guess as I told you is they won't carry on in the RFL, what's your opinion?

 

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32 minutes ago, phiggins said:

It's a 3 year TV deal, so negotiations may start next year, but no new deal would take effect until 2027 season. But a 14 team league, incluing 2 from France does make sense, as long as we know why we want 2 teams in France and what we'd do with it, such as the French TV deal you mention.

The resistence to 14 teams is pretty frustrating. Keep hearing reasons why it can't happen. Clubs might lose an extra tenner of the ever decreasing TV money. Not enough players (maybe with more top flight clubs, more players might get a chance!), some fascination with loop fixtures including a desparation to half fill St James' park every year.

I'm pretty split on 14 teams tbh.

One of my challenges is around the perception of Super League. I think we need to be presenting a vibrant, attractive competition as much as possible, and there is a risk of watering it down the further we go.

In terms of the current 12, I'd argue that as a TV sport, the majority of them do a good job - sure we can grumble about Wigan's ground looking a bit bare even though they have 13k in and so on, but it's clear they add so much, same with Leeds' ground layout etc - but that's us being picky. But I think there are two glaring examples of clubs who don't present that vibrant look for the league, and we need to think about whether we meander on and accept that, or be more demanding of what clubs should look like.

Are we happy with 3.5k in SL, or do we want to see clubs like Hull KR and Leigh challenging the big boys, filling their grounds and polishing their trophy cabinets in preparation - I think we know the answer. 

There is a risk of putting too much weight on perceptions and the 'look' of the comp, but I do actually think it is very important - and bringing in an additional 2 teams may make this worse. I'm not sure there are 14 vibrant clubs out there to make up the SL that we should strive for.

 

 

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1 hour ago, phiggins said:

It's a 3 year TV deal, so negotiations may start next year, but no new deal would take effect until 2027 season. But a 14 team league, incluing 2 from France does make sense, as long as we know why we want 2 teams in France and what we'd do with it, such as the French TV deal you mention.

The resistence to 14 teams is pretty frustrating. Keep hearing reasons why it can't happen. Clubs might lose an extra tenner of the ever decreasing TV money. Not enough players (maybe with more top flight clubs, more players might get a chance!), some fascination with loop fixtures including a desparation to half fill St James' park every year.

The most ever in France would be TV production costs paid and its expensive .

Around 40000 euros now a match and that's with a Spanish TV production crew.

 

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2 hours ago, RP London said:

What press? It will hardly touch the sides which is part of the problem that IMG are trying to fix! Whether they can/will or not is a different matter but the low profile etc is a massive problem and we have single handedly failed to solve it over 20+ years.. sometimes big changes are needed to make moves forward... too much "standing still" but in reality going backwards. 

As I've said all along, I've no idea if IMG will make it work, no one can, but the RFL have shown they cannot so maybe it's worth a try. 

The press that wants to persistently deride Rugby League, this would be something new they can get their teeth into, how about a headline like.

"A club on the up, relegated by a spreadsheet"

And I am sure that if the club was contacted for comment, they would oblige accordingly.

 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

1. So you persist on bring that up again re IMG forcing Leigh into doing what they have done, I explained to you that it was a 5 year plan, which was originated in 2021, to do something entirely different to what they did on previous visits to SL, failed 3 times before, but this time it worked.

2. Again if a little town club with one man and a few smallish sponsers can acheive it, why not a very big city team that you admit has massive sponsers and buisness contacts, I would suggest that it is not what you think it is and just name dropping, as for Leigh's previous failures let me refer you again to the 5 year plan. 

3. Had they copied Leigh they would have been an incumbent of SL now and in a much stronger position to maintain that standing, perhaps those big buisness and sponsers would have come out of the woodwork had they been in SL.

I asked you if Toulouse fail to get into SL this time, what do you think will happen my guess as I told you is they won't carry on in the RFL, what's your opinion?

 

Just because you say something Harry does not make it true. I mean that's clear from your posts and the timeline of what happened does not support your claim when it comes to the rebrand, marketing etc. Beaumonts comments certainly dont back up your opinion. You disagree and that's fine, happy to agree to disagree.

Again the rest is just strawman stuff where we go round in circles because you talk about what you think and what people didn't say rather than what we know with different standards applied depending on the club.

Sorry I didnt answer your question, you ask that many, think there were 4 in the post I quoted, and most are irrelevant to the point. If its important to you though I honestly have no idea what they will do nor care. I suspect they will just continue in the Championship and try again. Maybe they will follow Beaumont and throw a hissy fit and threaten to form their own league. Really no idea.

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Just now, Harry Stottle said:

The press that wants to persistently deride Rugby League, this would be something new they can get their teeth into, how about a headline like.

"A club on the up, relegated by a spreadsheet"

And I am sure that if the club was contacted for comment, they would oblige accordingly.

 

Again, what press?

There really is no national press to speak of that gives a tuppence hapeny  about Rugby League and there is no one, other than us lot, that rwad it if they do... we have an odd perception that people really care..  what we need to do is make them and give them something to care about, this would be a speed bump to get there if it work.. if not it will go completely unnoticed like the last 20 years has.. 

To think we have any real, noriceable, cut through in modern British popular culture is deluded IMHO 

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2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

The press that wants to persistently deride Rugby League, this would be something new they can get their teeth into, how about a headline like.

"A club on the up, relegated by a spreadsheet"

And I am sure that if the club was contacted for comment, they would oblige accordingly.

 

The only press that would do that is the RL press, most of which aren't exactly impartial when it comes to all of this.

The wider world wouldn't care less.

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There have been a few national media columns and articles about the unfairness of relegating London.

How much do you think most people have actually noticed?

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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20 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm pretty split on 14 teams tbh.

One of my challenges is around the perception of Super League. I think we need to be presenting a vibrant, attractive competition as much as possible, and there is a risk of watering it down the further we go.

In terms of the current 12, I'd argue that as a TV sport, the majority of them do a good job - sure we can grumble about Wigan's ground looking a bit bare even though they have 13k in and so on, but it's clear they add so much, same with Leeds' ground layout etc - but that's us being picky. But I think there are two glaring examples of clubs who don't present that vibrant look for the league, and we need to think about whether we meander on and accept that, or be more demanding of what clubs should look like.

Are we happy with 3.5k in SL, or do we want to see clubs like Hull KR and Leigh challenging the big boys, filling their grounds and polishing their trophy cabinets in preparation - I think we know the answer. 

There is a risk of putting too much weight on perceptions and the 'look' of the comp, but I do actually think it is very important - and bringing in an additional 2 teams may make this worse. I'm not sure there are 14 vibrant clubs out there to make up the SL that we should strive for.

 

 

I was going to say something similar.

I think SL needs to be moving towards a comp where every game attracts between 8-30k. Moving to 14 teams would seem to move us further from that goal.

I also think that the Championship should aspire to be a comp where 2-6k is the expectation. Again, a 14-team top tier takes us away from that.

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15 minutes ago, RP London said:

Again, what press?

You have never seen the 'press' that plays RL down at any opportunity it has?

What do you reckon joe public thinks of IMG in RL, most fans on the terraces don't know of them, if they can't even bowl their own trumpet they are never going to do it.

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38 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I was going to say something similar.

I think SL needs to be moving towards a comp where every game attracts between 8-30k. Moving to 14 teams would seem to move us further from that goal.

I also think that the Championship should aspire to be a comp where 2-6k is the expectation. Again, a 14-team top tier takes us away from that.

I don't think it does. The 2 teams you will add to get to 14 would likely get better attendances than at least 2 teams that seem guaranteed to be part of the 12 anyway. They would also be more likely to get in that 8k+ range you are looking for.

The Championship yeah by taking away two stronger teams but I don't think that should be the aim really.

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1 hour ago, Damien said:

I completely agree with this and have long wanted a 14 team SL. It has to be the goal and from what we have heard from IMG is.

If we have 14 teams that are all scoring well and are close to 'A' status, with very little difference between them, it makes sense to me just to go to 14 now. Based on what we know and can gather I suspect there will be 14 strongish teams and a gap to 15. If that's the case then I'm not sure what is to be gained by cutting one or two teams out because of a fraction of a point.

I bet the SL chairman can think of something.

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

The press that wants to persistently deride Rugby League, this would be something new they can get their teeth into, how about a headline like.

"A club on the up, relegated by a spreadsheet"

And I am sure that if the club was contacted for comment, they would oblige accordingly.

 

No offence Harry but the media literally do not give a stuff about Leigh Leopards and which League they play in.

That’s not a dig they wouldn’t give two hoots about most clubs, if not all.

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7 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

I bet the SL chairman can think of something.

Maybe every club just takes a haircut to fund two extra teams.

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