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A Question from a RU Fan.


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#1 welshexile1963

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:13 AM

Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!

#2 jackknife

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:48 AM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!

the scrum gets the forwards out of the way n gives the backs a chance to work there magic in attack biggrin.gif
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#3 East Coast Tiger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:05 AM

The rugby league scrum is no different from the union scrum. The side that feeds it wins it 99% of the time, except in RL we don't waste half an hour of every game packing and re-packing pointless scrums and spending hundreds of hours training just so a team can nullify the other side's equally pointless scrum push.

As for backs being the same as forwards, it's just not true. The roles in RL are pretty clearly defined for the most part and the forwards and backs have their own roles.

#4 my missus

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:06 AM

just the same in union, the scrum sets the guy puts the ball in they get it back except in union it takes 5mins.

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#5 barnyia

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:25 AM

hello

i read in the french paper that in the lower union competitions they will have just one chance at the scrum. any infringement its a penalty straight away and if the ball comes out and the scrum collapses its play on.

barney

#6 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:44 AM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!

1 there aren't many scrums in a rugy league game
they are a way of restarting the game whilst at the same time taking 12 players out of the game.

2 I supose you differentiate by observing the tactical stuation, or observing what a player is doing at any one time. Notionally for instance the hooker will go to acting half back, but not necessarily so by any means, props will drive the ball forward, but not necessarily so.

these days wingers have a much more to do defensively with the greater number and wider variety of attacking kicks.
Tactical situations in rugby league are much more fluid than in union.

Don't worry about it mate, just enjoy it.
and yes come on the drusaders
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#7 Vambo

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!


Welcome to the forum welshexile smile.gif

Your first question is one that many RL fans also ask. wink.gif



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#8 Mumby Magic

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:09 AM

Glad it only took 18 months to come up with the question. tongue.gif

Welcome!

Question has been answered but keep coming on here and join our great big family plus, Hannibal, Mick and l'angelo mysterio! biggrin.gif

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#9 Doghead

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:24 AM

The point of a scrum is to simply restart play, nothing else, Union made the scrum into a sacred institution, but are now slowly following League.
League style scrums will change Union big style, no place left for the fat lads to hide anymore. just sort out how to restart after a tackle and your almost there.

#10 1976PMJwires

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE (Doghead @ Sep 18 2010, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The point of a scrum is to simply restart play, nothing else, Union made the scrum into a sacred institution, but are now slowly following League.
League style scrums will change Union big style, no place left for the fat lads to hide anymore. just sort out how to restart after a tackle and your almost there.


Great post and spoken like a pro wink.gif

#11 MrPosh

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!

We used to have contested scrums, but it was felt that they wasted too much time and the specialists required were not always able to hold their own in open play. We could do without them as a form of restarting, but the attacking opportunities that having twelve forwards all in one place are good for the game.

Compared to Union, there is less need for specialists for the set plays (short, fat lads and big, tall lads). Naturally, without these extremes, the players do look more similar, but the differences are there and are just as necessary - they are just more subtle. Having said that, stand Lewis Moody and Mike Tindall next to each other and tell me if there is much difference in size.

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#12 Old Frightful

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE (my missus @ Sep 18 2010, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
just the same in union, the scrum sets the guy puts the ball in they get it back except in union it takes 5mins.

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#13 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:05 PM

QUOTE (East Coast Tiger @ Sep 18 2010, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The rugby league scrum is no different from the union scrum. The side that feeds it wins it 99% of the time, except in RL we don't waste half an hour of every game packing and re-packing pointless scrums and spending hundreds of hours training just so a team can nullify the other side's equally pointless scrum push.


I'm a bit of a Union novice but there is certainly more to the scrum than just winning the ball. I always thought it was similar to the way a forward pack gets on top in RL. If your forward pack are dominant then you stand a much better chance of winning. One of the ways they get dominant in Union is through the scrum. I remember seeing a match where England's scrum dominated Australia and effectively won the match because they couldn't compete.

Hardly riveting but it's not necessarily the same thing. We need to sort out our scrum, if not just to stop people unfamiliar with the game going on about it all the time. I twittered during Challenge Cup final and there were 3 types of comments, those praising the game, those saying it was awful and those saying what is the point in the RL scrum.

#14 Bob8

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 03:50 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Sep 18 2010, 03:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm a bit of a Union novice but there is certainly more to the scrum than just winning the ball. I always thought it was similar to the way a forward pack gets on top in RL. If your forward pack are dominant then you stand a much better chance of winning. One of the ways they get dominant in Union is through the scrum. I remember seeing a match where England's scrum dominated Australia and effectively won the match because they couldn't compete.

Hardly riveting but it's not necessarily the same thing. We need to sort out our scrum, if not just to stop people unfamiliar with the game going on about it all the time. I twittered during Challenge Cup final and there were 3 types of comments, those praising the game, those saying it was awful and those saying what is the point in the RL scrum.


Indeed, a well disciplined pack can wear out the opposition, meaning who is winning the scrums at half time is often a better indicator of who will win the game than the score is.

In a normal play in RL, the hooker will pass to the forwards, or the scrum half.
- The forwards have a specific role here, in that they are best able to hit the ball up. However, whereas in union, the forming of the ruck and maul is important, in league these are not important. Therefore, combined with size and strength, there is an emphasis on speed and on handling ability. The forward might just hit it up, but know that the forward is a good passer of the ball means the defence have to concentrate on wrapping the ball up rather than just hitting in the man down as in rugby union. There is therefore more emphasis on speed and passing in the forwards as opposed to RU.
-The scrum half will have two broad options, passing through the backs, typically to the stand off (5/8th). The stand off position can perhaps best be prepared to the inside centre in RU, as this is a creative player who should have some room to operate (as opposed to the fly half position to which it is often compared). I will refer here to Istyn Harris, who went from stand off in RL to fly half in RU, whereas I suspect he would have been better off at inside centre.
-Alternatively, the scrum half might look to use the forwards as a unit, with their own plays and move (again there is a greater emphasis on this in RL. Typically, the scrum half might do this by passing to the loose forward (the no. 8 in RU).

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#15 HappyDave

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:17 PM

Welshexile I'd recommend you go along to watch a amateur rugby league match in your local area next time there's one on although it may not be until next year now if they're RLC or non-Conference. I'd say there's a fairly noticable difference in the size difference between a Prop Forward and a winger. Manu Vatuvei is the only exception to the rule that I can think of.

Edited by HappyDave, 18 September 2010 - 04:18 PM.

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#16 dallymessenger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:25 PM

QUOTE (welshexile1963 @ Sep 18 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi all, I am a South West Walian born and bred on Rugby Union, but over the past few years I have been watching Rugby League more and more on TV and enjoying it, I just want a few questions answered,

1. What is the point of the scrum? There's no actual physical competition involved anymore so why not scrap it?

2. The forwards in RL? They dont seem to do much different than the backs, how do you life long supporters differentiate between both?

Anyway thanks in advance and I will continue to watch, come on you Crusaders!


forwards have different roles.

props are more of the battering rams, taking the ball up initially and getting the defence on the back foot

2nd rowers are more expected to run wider and be able to offload.

its true though many current forwards in RL played in the backs in juniors and then put on muscle

even forwards are expected to have good offloading / passing skills in RL, its the nature of the game

#17 dallymessenger

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:26 PM

to the union fan you need to watch the ruck / tackle, thats where the contest is.

the tackle is a battle between defence and offence.

the attack wants a quick play the ball

the defence wants to slow it down by getting the tackled player on his back etc

its the ruck speed which determines the game

#18 Doghead

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 04:54 PM

Perhaps the worst aspect of a Union game is the fact that forwards dont stay on their feet, choosing 99% of the time to go to ground hoping for a quick recycle of the ball, then they do it again, progress up field if any is very slow.
Watch league, granted two less players but top teams can and do make 40/50 yards most 6 tackles.

#19 ShotgunGold

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:00 PM

When I first watched RL the scrum was the only time when I went WTF. It's the worst bit about the game and something needs changing. Don't actually know how it needs to change, but it does!! I can't imagine how many people it puts off the game when they are watching for the first time. When I am explaining the game to a friend (which is pretty regular) I just keep quiet when a scrum happens!!

#20 dkw

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE (ShotgunGold @ Sep 18 2010, 09:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I first watched RL the scrum was the only time when I went WTF. It's the worst bit about the game and something needs changing. Don't actually know how it needs to change, but it does!! I can't imagine how many people it puts off the game when they are watching for the first time. When I am explaining the game to a friend (which is pretty regular) I just keep quiet when a scrum happens!!

Believe me when I tell you the scrum used to an absolute mess in RL, it was as bad if not worse than the scrum in union now. It was horrible to watch at times, taking minutes on end to get right then leading to a penalty as the ref finally lost patience. Its much better now than then and adds to the flow of the game as we now know it.




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