Red Star Belgrade to join League One?

[JM2010]

I think Parksider may be referring to the fact that Argyle is spending money on bringing in ready made players from another country but might not be spending any on developing the grassroots in and around Toronto to help strengthen the game and open up a new player pool

[ojx]

3 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think Parksider may be referring to the fact that Argyle is spending money on bringing in ready made players from another country but might not be spending any on developing the grassroots in and around Toronto to help strengthen the game and open up a new player pool

He probably is, but I would say give it some time, you can't compare the TWP to a heartland team 100+ years old. They have to take it one step at a time. How could they invest in a big development program before even knowing if the sport would be a success in the city? That wouldn't make any sense. I know they are now making plans in this area.

[The Parksider]

11 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think Parksider may be referring to the fact that Argyle is spending money on bringing in ready made players from another country but might not be spending any on developing the grassroots in and around Toronto to help strengthen the game and open up a new player pool

Might not?? he just isn't? Who will Toronto Juniors play? will they take a plane to play New York Juniors? When will the first professional quality kids roll off the production line if this ever happens? 10-15 years is the concensus on here. How many years before self sufficiency? 20 years?? Will enough kids turn to RL anyway when they already have RU??

You all know the plan Perez has told us of. Toronto use big money NOW to buy in an SL team and win promotion, they displace an English team and New York can buy the players released and so on until there are "5-6 Superleague clubs in North America" That's the plan as openly stated

What you don't get Oxj is it isn't "one step at a time" like Belgrade who have started  from the grass roots quite successfully. Yes good sir Superleague are indeed craving rich owners, but they need these rich owners to be investing in the right things where their money will work for their fellow clubs, not destroy them.

The simplest example is Bradford Bulls. If Argyle had taken them over and rebuilt Odsal with his money and returned Bulls to Superleague other clubs would have benefited massively. An example that worked was Neil  Hudgell putting money into Hull.K.R. The two big derbies of Leeds/Bulls and Hull/Rovers have been good for 20K crowds including the many “away” fans Toronto won’t bring. Bulls and HKR take big away followings. This is the "away" fans point Lenegan rejects Toronto on.

If Argyle had taken over Harlequins RL and pumped money into London junior ARL, this would have been a dream come true for most on here. If Argyle had re-started Crusaders in South Wales where a great junior ARL sprung up with the last modest investment who on here could argue? I'd have Argyle in Superleague tomorrow if he was not plotting to ruin it on a pipedream.

It does not follow investment in your business is automatically a good thing. It can often be a “Hostile takeover”, look it up. As it  stands Argyle’s money is being used to start the launch of a series of North American pro clubs (not junior clubs) who want to take Superleague places off English clubs and buy up their players.  This can and will be quite destructive and I quote Bob8 from the NRL thread “They (Toronto) could still ruin everything.  That is clear.” 

 

[Exiled Wiganer]

It is ridiculous for this thread to turn away from its main focus to the "Bradford were a big club for 5 minutes and everything else everywhere revolves around that" nonsense.

Serbia has a special place for many of us given the way it has put down roots in a relatively remote (league-wise) area and endured. If Belgrade can establish a successful pro team then this would continue one of the most uplifting stories in our game. 

[Bob8]

5 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

It is ridiculous for this thread to turn away from its main focus to the "Bradford were a big club for 5 minutes and everything else everywhere revolves around that" nonsense.

Serbia has a special place for many of us given the way it has put down roots in a relatively remote (league-wise) area and endured. If Belgrade can establish a successful pro team then this would continue one of the most uplifting stories in our game. 

It would.  

The location is certainly better than Toronto.  But, the economy is far worse, which does present a challenge.

[iangidds]

2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

It would.  

The location is certainly better than Toronto.  But, the economy is far worse, which does present a challenge.

Maybe with a weaker economy your money goes further? Better quality athletes who can make a good living from RL; only football I think can offer that here I think

[Exiled Wiganer]

14 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think Parksider may be referring to the fact that Argyle is spending money on bringing in ready made players from another country but might not be spending any on developing the grassroots in and around Toronto to help strengthen the game and open up a new player pool

I think his starting point is "20000 every week at Bradford and they bang on about places I have never heard of, and people spending money which could go on our 20000 every week club" and takes it from there. 

[londonrlfan]

Will they be bringing the ultras along with them? 

 

[iangidds]

They will bring a passion to RL , I really think the British game should embrace them (serbia) on an amateur basis; a few years of this type of cooperation would help the Serbians to understand that British RL fans are pretty similar to them

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, iangidds said:

Maybe with a weaker economy your money goes further? Better quality athletes who can make a good living from RL; only football I think can offer that here I think

Indeed, and I offer it as a concern.

However, they have to raise some basic running costs.  They might well be cheaper in Serbia, but they are having to rely on the spare money of Serbian wages rather than British or Canadian.  Air fares would not be cheaper.  Attracting players to Belgrade for low wages might be difficult, whereas it might be easier vice-versa.  In terms of getting money into the game, a club in Belgrade will not get corporate sponsors licking their lips.

[londonrlfan]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed, and I offer it as a concern.

However, they have to raise some basic running costs.  They might well be cheaper in Serbia, but they are having to rely on the spare money of Serbian wages rather than British or Canadian.  Air fares would not be cheaper.  Attracting players to Belgrade for low wages might be difficult, whereas it might be easier vice-versa.  In terms of getting money into the game, a club in Belgrade will not get corporate sponsors licking their lips.

I assume they'd just go for Serbian players, with maybe a few Australian Serbians. The language barrier would be far too difficult to overcome. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

Indeed, and I offer it as a concern.

However, they have to raise some basic running costs.  They might well be cheaper in Serbia, but they are having to rely on the spare money of Serbian wages rather than British or Canadian.  Air fares would not be cheaper.  Attracting players to Belgrade for low wages might be difficult, whereas it might be easier vice-versa.  In terms of getting money into the game, a club in Belgrade will not get corporate sponsors licking their lips.

Indeed based on current exchange rates the standard L1 central funding payment of £70000 is close to 10 million Serbian Dinars. 

[Bob8]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed based on current exchange rates the standard L1 central funding payment of £70000 is close to 10 million Serbian Dinars. 

I breifly helped run a rugby league group in a wealthy country and I refused to go for international grants, as they would go much further in poorer countries.  

But, I doubt a Serbian club would get the UK grant and might instead have to pay for plane travel.

21 minutes ago, londonrlfan said:

I assume they'd just go for Serbian players, with maybe a few Australian Serbians. The language barrier would be far too difficult to overcome. 

That means having to retain the players in Serbia rather than have a British club give them a contract.  Possible, but a challenge.

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Indeed based on current exchange rates the standard L1 central funding payment of £70000 is close to 10 million Serbian Dinars. 

I think some I here would go ballistic if a L1 Serbian club received £70000 in funding. 

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Damien said:

I think some I here would go ballistic if a L1 Serbian club received £70000 in funding. 

I know I wasn't necessarily suggesting it would, just saying that that is the disparity that any new Serbian team would face just to get on level central funding terms with the other L1 teams.

[The Parksider]

23 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

It is ridiculous for this thread to turn away from its main focus to the "Bradford were a big club for 5 minutes and everything else everywhere revolves around that" nonsense.

Serbia has a special place for many of us given the way it has put down roots in a relatively remote (league-wise) area and endured. If Belgrade can establish a successful pro team then this would continue one of the most uplifting stories in our game. 

Well Belgrade plan to gradually build their playing base until they can become strong enough to enter League One where they will hopefully be powerful enough to give Hemel Hempstead, London Skolars and south Wales a game. This my friend is hardly the land of the "successful pro teams".

I'd guess a visit from Belgrade will put 50% on the Hemel crowd which could then smash the 200 barrier. This will then justify a turning away from the likes of Bradford Bulls who are no longer the future and are clearly yesterdays men.

Just had a look at "Yesterdays men" and they link back to 1863. That's about 80 million minutes (corrections welcome) of which only 5 of them were successful according to you.

I'd like to see Belgrade come over here and play perhaps Bulls Academy (these are tomorrows men by the way), all "those of us" who you have decided to speak for can perhaps come along and actually support BOTH clubs and cheer them on accordingly.

I don't see any need for it to be one or the other. After all you are the one who has regularly given "us" the solution to accommodating overseas pro expansion through "Conferences". However I'm still waiting for details on how it will be funded adequately, where the extra players will come from and how planned mismatches will be of any help. In your own time though........

In 1980 your own Wigan were relegated from the Top Division to Division Two, I remember that well. Maybe we should have just left them there as their own "5 minutes of success" had ground to a halt, after all the brave new world of expansion was upon us at the time and we had the future to look forward to with the newly formed Fulham ready to take over Wigan's position as one of the games top clubs. How we missed a trick there......

[iangidds]

We need in my opinion as many people , clubs, cities, countries playing RL; of course we cannot forget our roots but we need to spread those roots out to as many people as we can.

some of these will be prime targets to add to the top level of professional RL and the rest will find their level I suppose; how many out there are connected to amateur clubs? Why don't you get in touch with the Serbian RL to organise some games ?? Or is this just the usual talking / whinging shop?

[JoneslessBishop]

Parksider, Bradford, Toronto and Belgrade all offer different opputunities to our game. I’m not sure what details you expect from a conference approach that is atleast 8-10 years away. We don’t all have a crystal ball like the one you have, that seems stuck on a maximum negativity setting. However, I would anticipate that any significant restructure along the lines of  conferencing could allow for the return of Bradford. But given the marvelous academy that you cite, they really should play their way back to SL before then.

 

RL is played in the Toronto area:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Rugby_League_Competition

 As well as in Alberta and more extensively in Vancouver, and the USA went to the World Cup with only 9 non-USA RL players, and two of them play for Toronto. TWP are sponsoring local unions competitions to attract talent and support. There are plenty of talent pools to exploit, but Argyle and Perez have cannily focused on ensuring an immediate winning team as the North American market does not tolerate losers.   Quite how many Canadians you expect in the TWP team now? A 12 year old brought in at heir inception would be 13. TWP will probably be running at a loss until they make SL. Revenues then should allow them to be a little more wider focused.

 

You seem to think Argyles money can be spent on many things on your wish list, but it’s his money. Nigel Wood sat on a plane with Marwan Koukash and talked him into SL. He didn’t exactly do as he was told did he? He didn’t turn Manchester into a RL city like you would have Argyle do for London. You want Argyle to build Bradford a stadium, yet Salford remain tenants and could be to Sale very soon. Marwan’s vote of no confidence looked very much like a hostile takeover that never took off. Salford have no academy and drain English resources just as you claim Argyle will plan to do.

There are other talent pools growing in our game that could support Toronto’s growth. PNG are growing via the Hunters and will do more so after this World Cup. Fiji are set for a NSW Cup team. Those players will end up more likely in Oz structures, but that will free up Aussies. Many top NRL names have already suggested an interest in NYC.

Toronto ensured there was League 1 RL on TV last season and will do the same for the Championship next. Our magnificent heartland teams don’t. Toronto provide glamour and attractive broadcasting slots to TV companies once they get into SL, and attracted more fans to League 1 grounds than any other team last season. 

Australia have shown via the World Cup and the WCC they don’t give a monkeys about the Interntional game. Time to look to other markets.Can we maybe just wait and see what impact Toronto and other teams have on the next UK broadcast deal and what new broadcast and sponsorship revenues they can bring from North America. Maybe turn off the crystal ball until then?

[londonrlfan]

Well said. The likes of Parky just don't get it. The only way the sport will grow is if we spread to new markets, bring in new players and sponsors to the game. Sticking to a small area from St Helens to Hull is not going to grow the sport and mostly will send the sport back to semi pro level, save for 3/4 teams. At the moment, the two big areas from growth from a financial pov, are Europe and North America. Toronto brings in new sponsorship to the sport (AirTransat) and a new tv market. Otherwise we'll be left with tinpot sponsorship like Betfred and Stobart not paying a penny. 

[Copa]

Just popped up on Facebook about their plans for joining the UK system 

 

 

[Copa]

I can only imagine the years of chaos on this forum if Belgrade and 4 other North American teams join the party.

[Bob8]

11 minutes ago, Copa said:

I can only imagine the years of chaos on this forum if Belgrade and 4 other North American teams join the party.

If it works, people will say they were always in favour.

[Gerrumonside ref]

This would be another fantastic media story for rugby league in the UK if it could be made to happen in the future.

Red Star Belgrade is a famous old name in soccer terms and they have just marked a return to some high profile matches in European competition in that sport.

We should embrace the idea.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:59 PM, JM2010 said:

I think Parksider may be referring to the fact that Argyle is spending money on bringing in ready made players from another country but might not be spending any on developing the grassroots in and around Toronto to help strengthen the game and open up a new player pool

 

I think a real opportunity was lost last year to play North American players.   

Canada certainly has players good enough for League One, be it coming off the bench.

The games may have been more competitive and it would have generated a decent amount of publicity in the Canadian press.

Helped kick start the game in schools and the amateur level.

Watching a Steve Piatek type players would have sparked my interest for some of the more one-sided games.

The Championship and Super League I believe would be too tough to bring "local" players into.

 

[themainbrace]

Parksider said;

The two big derbies of Leeds/Bulls and Hull/Rovers have been good for 20K crowds including the many “away” fans Toronto won’t bring. Bulls and HKR take big away followings. This is the "away" fans point Lenegan rejects Toronto on.

These derbies do not always bring 20k crowds - They do in unusual cases, such as one of the teams has been promoted after a few years or one moves back to it's old ground.  Once the 2 teams find themselves playing each other 3 to 4 times a year or more the crowds drop away.  Sometimes, the games draw a bit more than average - but some people conveniently forget these facts.

And I'm fed up with the nonsense about away fans.  In 2017 we had only Catalans from outside the M62 village in SL and with them missing out on the Supr 8s completely - we should have had a record year. 

Why did Wakefield struggle to get over 5k with all those local teams, how come Salford's crowds were so small with so many clubs in the North West.  I'll repeat it once again, the highest aggregate attendance for SL prior to the 3 x 8 re-strucutre was the season where almost a quarter of the League brought 'no away fans'  when Crusader's, London and Catalan's were in the league.