Red Star Belgrade to join League One?

[BBR]

Red Star may have been a big club once upon a time. Now they get about 5000 fans at home games, charging a whopping £3 a ticket. Can't see how any venture in Serbia will attract revenue to pay for travel to UK every week. I image their fans would baulk at the hefty £15 price for the Challenge Cup or Grand Final. Oh wait, maybe that is the key, find people who complain about ticket prices and it might just work as they will fit into the RL culture nicely.

 

Shame, as Serbia is one of the only places on my travels that I have seen a game of RL played in a park

[Michael1812]

43 minutes ago, BBR said:

Red Star may have been a big club once upon a time. Now they get about 5000 fans at home games, charging a whopping £3 a ticket. Can't see how any venture in Serbia will attract revenue to pay for travel to UK every week. I image their fans would baulk at the hefty £15 price for the Challenge Cup or Grand Final. Oh wait, maybe that is the key, find people who complain about ticket prices and it might just work as they will fit into the RL culture nicely.

 

Shame, as Serbia is one of the only places on my travels that I have seen a game of RL played in a park

Their average home attendance for this season is just over 10,000 with them still being able to draw over 50,000 for big matches. 

And for those worried about away fans, have a look at the Arsenal match on Thursday. 

No idea if it will work but I loved my visit to Belgrade dispite having to pay off a cop who pulled us over. 

[langpark]

21 minutes ago, Michael1812 said:

Their average home attendance for this season is just over 10,000 with them still being able to draw over 50,000 for big matches. 

And for those worried about away fans, have a look at the Arsenal match on Thursday. 

No idea if it will work but I loved my visit to Belgrade dispite having to pay off a cop who pulled us over. 

It just wouldn't be a proper Eastern Europe experience otherwise! 

[BBR]

Must have improved then. I went 5 years ago. Was 6000 in attendance for the game I went to. Biggest crowd of the season was 25,000 against Partisan, the rest hovered between 4000 and 8000

[Michael1812]

11 hours ago, langpark said:

It just wouldn't be a proper Eastern Europe experience otherwise! 

I actually feel fortunate that in all my years touring in bands, that we only ever had to pay off cops twice. At least the Germans only asked our driver to pee in a cup on the side of the road so they could test for drugs. 

[This Sporting Strife]

13 hours ago, Michael1812 said:

Their average home attendance for this season is just over 10,000 with them still being able to draw over 50,000 for big matches. 

And for those worried about away fans, have a look at the Arsenal match on Thursday. 

No idea if it will work but I loved my visit to Belgrade dispite having to pay off a cop who pulled us over. 

For an instant I thought you were referring to their rugby team... for an instant optimism tackled pessimism... for an instant...

[shrek]

I was lucky enough to get to go to Belgrade in 2013 to photograph the RL World Cup qualifiers, whilst Serbia v Russia was a dead rubber, it seemed to capture the imagination of plenty of the locals, and Italy v Lebanon was a great advert for the sport.

I came away from the City really impressed, the general sporting infrastructure looked superb, there was quality facilities dotted throughout the city, even got to see Sunday morning touch rugby in the shadow of the castle which was a nice to see!

Be a great city for the visiting fan to enjoy as well.

[The Parksider]

On 01/11/2017 at 2:39 AM, Captain Survival said:

Looking at the bigger picture with the fledgling success of TWP it seems to have opened a floodgate of interest and how is that not a wonderful thing for we who love RL?  The sport has gone from being almost invisible other then to its core support in M62 country to interest fostering from all over the place internationally.

Let’s not keep pretending a manufactured club with all overseas players who have just dumped their home grown players, after spending a whopping £7M creating a massive trading loss have been any sort of success, let alone been an inspiration to Serbian Rugby League, or the global game.

 The Serbian game was rejuvenated in 2004 long before Toronto. Their growth has been grass roots organic growth with a reported 17 clubs and 2,000 players dwarfing anything Perez has achieved. Their growth as Bob 8 has rightly said comes from the globalisation we have had years before Toronto, where people in far off countries can look around the world see what’s going on and decide themselves whether to get on board with whatever it is. Serbians decided to get on board and play Rugby League again and re-grow the game there long before Toronto and Perez.

 What has triggered Serbia’s interest will in no way be the alleged Success of Toronto, it will be  Nigel Wood’s willingness to accept a club into the domestic game from  three and a half thousand miles away. Serbia are probably not one bit interested in joining their alleged “inspiration” of Toronto, they are probably more interested in explaining to Wood why they are a much better bet than Toronto as they offer the game grass roots growth, and why Superleague (Europe) Ltd, as the name implies, should be looking far closer to home if they are giving out places in the game.

 And the bottom line here is Wood faces a major backlash from existing clubs, Superleague have shunned him, and it won’t be long before the likes of Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Featherstone start asking Wood some very tough questions indeed as they face financial ruin if the Championship is to be progressively semi-globalised.

[langpark]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

Let’s not keep pretending a manufactured club with all overseas players who have just dumped their home grown players, after spending a whopping £7M creating a massive trading loss have been any sort of success, let alone been an inspiration to Serbian Rugby League, or the global game.

 The Serbian game was rejuvenated in 2004 long before Toronto. Their growth has been grass roots organic growth with a reported 17 clubs and 2,000 players dwarfing anything Perez has achieved. Their growth as Bob 8 has rightly said comes from the globalisation we have had years before Toronto, where people in far off countries can look around the world see what’s going on and decide themselves whether to get on board with whatever it is. Serbians decided to get on board and play Rugby League again and re-grow the game there long before Toronto and Perez.

 What has triggered Serbia’s interest will in no way be the alleged Success of Toronto, it will be  Nigel Wood’s willingness to accept a club into the domestic game from  three and a half thousand miles away. Serbia are probably not one bit interested in joining their alleged “inspiration” of Toronto, they are probably more interested in explaining to Wood why they are a much better bet than Toronto as they offer the game grass roots growth, and why Superleague (Europe) Ltd, as the name implies, should be looking far closer to home if they are giving out places in the game.

 And the bottom line here is Wood faces a major backlash from existing clubs, Superleague have shunned him, and it won’t be long before the likes of Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Featherstone start asking Wood some very tough questions indeed as they face financial ruin if the Championship is to be progressively semi-globalised.

I agree with a lot of what you've said there, but your figure of 2000 is WAY OFF.  Even by your own calculations, it does not add up:  2000 across 17 clubs = 118 players per club!  No way.

As I said earlier in the thread, if we are talking current and active players, it's approx. 300-350, which is still really good for something that started at zero just 15 years ago.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

1 hour ago, The Parksider said:

Let’s not keep pretending a manufactured club with all overseas players who have just dumped their home grown players, after spending a whopping £7M creating a massive trading loss have been any sort of success, let alone been an inspiration to Serbian Rugby League, or the global game.

 The Serbian game was rejuvenated in 2004 long before Toronto. Their growth has been grass roots organic growth with a reported 17 clubs and 2,000 players dwarfing anything Perez has achieved. Their growth as Bob 8 has rightly said comes from the globalisation we have had years before Toronto, where people in far off countries can look around the world see what’s going on and decide themselves whether to get on board with whatever it is. Serbians decided to get on board and play Rugby League again and re-grow the game there long before Toronto and Perez.

 What has triggered Serbia’s interest will in no way be the alleged Success of Toronto, it will be  Nigel Wood’s willingness to accept a club into the domestic game from  three and a half thousand miles away. Serbia are probably not one bit interested in joining their alleged “inspiration” of Toronto, they are probably more interested in explaining to Wood why they are a much better bet than Toronto as they offer the game grass roots growth, and why Superleague (Europe) Ltd, as the name implies, should be looking far closer to home if they are giving out places in the game.

 And the bottom line here is Wood faces a major backlash from existing clubs, Superleague have shunned him, and it won’t be long before the likes of Batley, Dewsbury, Halifax and Featherstone start asking Wood some very tough questions indeed as they face financial ruin if the Championship is to be progressively semi-globalised.

Trading loss?  Have I missed a story, most likely. 

[Bob8]

On 1/11/2017 at 3:39 AM, Captain Survival said:

I know nothing of the RL scene in Serbia so I cannot comment in any way other then to advise there are many people of Slavic origin in the Toronto area (as in tens of thousands if not more) and a visit from a club from that area would be a sellout.

Looking at the bigger picture with the fledgling success of TWP it seems to have opened a floodgate of interest and how is that not a wonderful thing for we who love RL?  The sport has gone from being almost invisible other then to its core support in M62 country to interest fostering from all over the place internationally.

I think this is true.

Certainly, they have provided a proof of concept of a model that had been discussed in some circles, but rather held to ridicule generally.  The location of Toronto is rather unfortunate.  An affluent European city would certainly provide an interesting venue.

For some years, sport has been becoming more global.  French and Russian teams in the Challenge Cup were a nod to this.  I would argue that Les Catalans were the real break through, it demonstrated that while trying to set up professional leagues tended to fail, entering a pro- club into a foreign league could work.  That is turn showed that PSG did not fail because they were south of Doncaster, but becacuse they were badly run.

Of course, the argument from the traditionalists (who were right about PSG) was that they had favoured Cats all along (typically untrue), as Perpignan has a rich rugby league heritage.  What Toronto have demonstrated is that the tradition in rugby league is not required.

There are still two arguments remaining.  That some areas are inherently rich in rugby league and it is like striking oil in the right place. This suggests that pretty much any pro team in Toronto would have triumphed, whereas any team in London will fail.  Perez himself rather encouraged that thought with the idea of rugby league being the most Canadian game not in Canada.

The other argument is that it is all a big media lie of hype and hot air.  It is worth noting that the reason the rugby union fans in Europe do not pay much attention to the success of Toronto is that they do not believe it could be true.  While a few might concede they might have the occasional four figure crown based on free tickets and people thinking they were off to a rugby union match, they are confident it will disappear in a year of two. They might still be right, the power of rugby league to ruin its own chances are impressive.

Another reservation about Belgrade is that Toronto had a great deal of surplus wealth.  The per capita income of Serbia is tiny compared to that of the UK.  I rather tediously go over four success criteria for clubs (good management, good financial backing, a town with a large wealthy population or at least moderate wealth and rugby league tradition, and a suitable stadium).  A Belgrade team lacks either having rugby league as a major sport for the whole city or having a decent amount of wealth.

One of our great plus points as a sport is our relative weakness.  If some business men from Zurich decided that they wanted a professional rugby union team in the English leagues, they would have a big battle on their hands to get it accepted.  Rugby league might welcome them in.

The gentleman speaking in the video spoke, I think, of an aspiration.  To accomplish that, much work would have to be completed.  Some with rugby, but the most with a business case, building a business team, and infrastructure.  To say that it will be extremely difficult is not the same as saying it should not be investigated.  But, clearly, it would be very difficult (though some will no doubt read this as me presenting a straight forward panacea).

Langpark, I assume Parksider just makes his figures up.  However, if we consider the number of school kids and women playing, the figure might not be completely mad.  Personally, I think an amateur set-up and professional set-up are better off kept separate anyway.

[iangidds]

On 31/10/2017 at 8:43 PM, Damien said:

Just googled my own question. Unless my maths are totally wrong it is only about £4000 a year. Montenegro and Albania are only slightly more with Croatia about £7000.

At times like this I do wonder if less is more and whether a targeted approach to development would be better. Target profits from the World Cup into setting up and subsidising a semi professional Balkan league, say with 12 teams with a set wage. Employ some development officers in these countries also. You could then have a fairly well paid part time league (for those countries) for a relatively small outlay and make Rugby League much stronger in 4 countries in Europe. 

The average wage ( take Home) in Montenegro is 450 euros and as you state slightly less in Serbia , you can see how you could attract elite sportsmen on a decent wage

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, iangidds said:

The average wage ( take Home) in Montenegro is 450 euros and as you state slightly less in Serbia , you can see how you could attract elite sportsmen on a decent wage

The issue is other overheads of travel to the UK and back would reamin the same.  Furthermore, the chance to earn the money from customers and businesses would be very limited.  

I trust Langpark on this more than myself, but for myself, I do not see much potential through the League 1 route. 

[southstand loiner]

9 hours ago, langpark said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said there, but your figure of 2000 is WAY OFF.  Even by your own calculations, it does not add up:  2000 across 17 clubs = 118 players per club!  No way.

As I said earlier in the thread, if we are talking current and active players, it's approx. 300-350, which is still really good for something that started at zero just 15 years ago.

quite possible to have 118 players at a club if there running a couple of open age teams and some youth teams . 

[The Parksider]

22 hours ago, langpark said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said there, but your figure of 2000 is WAY OFF.  Even by your own calculations, it does not add up:  2000 across 17 clubs = 118 players per club!  No way.

As I said earlier in the thread, if we are talking current and active players, it's approx. 300-350, which is still really good for something that started at zero just 15 years ago.

There are many Amateur RL clubs who easily have 118 players. These are clubs who have senior, youth and junior sides - your confusion may be because I took the literal quote from the source which said "17 teams". I've cross checked this and it's 17 clubs as you say good sir. I'd guess Siddal ARLFC could have 200 players if they field teams at all age ranges plus reserves etc. The Serbians reportedly do run junior, youth and senior “teams” so the figures reported  really should be taken at face value.

So hopefully you can now agree with all that I say, Toronto don't have the playing set up Serbia has, nor the grass roots growth Serbia has, Serbia is in Europe, the league is a European game and so I do not blame the Serbians for most likely saying how come Toronto get in and not us? 

To our resident Legend Tex Evans you will have missed the quote in the New York  article stating Toronto spent £7,000,000 last season, you don't  think they took in anything like that?. Then they released their only two first team homegrown players!!. If your a Salford fan they'd buy your club lock stock and barrel and close it down and just keep your players and the  SL place if they could.

In terms of "expansion" there is a massive difference between opening a playerless/rich Toronto and closing Salford, against adding Belgrade and a whole new player pool to RL in Europe.

Events will see this debate out, For the “American dream” to continue Superleague need to leave the way open for straight promotion without licensing, The RFL need to accept New York, and the English clubs need to welcome their players leaving for America only to come back to try rob their former clubs of their places in the Superleague and push all the English clubs down the league. The problem then becomes the demise of the game here.

For too long in our many debates we've come to a massive concensus about how the game could get growth, and that concensus has been that the game needs money. Toronto have access to £Billions from Argyle and so many tend to believe Argyle is our future. The Elephant in the room is he only wants to spend it on himself.

[TheLegendOfTexEvans]

6 hours ago, The Parksider said:

There are many Amateur RL clubs who easily have 118 players. These are clubs who have senior, youth and junior sides - your confusion may be because I took the literal quote from the source which said "17 teams". I've cross checked this and it's 17 clubs as you say good sir. I'd guess Siddal ARLFC could have 200 players if they field teams at all age ranges plus reserves etc. The Serbians reportedly do run junior, youth and senior “teams” so the figures reported  really should be taken at face value.

So hopefully you can now agree with all that I say, Toronto don't have the playing set up Serbia has, nor the grass roots growth Serbia has, Serbia is in Europe, the league is a European game and so I do not blame the Serbians for most likely saying how come Toronto get in and not us? 

To our resident Legend Tex Evans you will have missed the quote in the New York  article stating Toronto spent £7,000,000 last season, you don't  think they took in anything like that?. Then they released their only two first team homegrown players!!. If your a Salford fan they'd buy your club lock stock and barrel and close it down and just keep your players and the  SL place if they could.

In terms of "expansion" there is a massive difference between opening a playerless/rich Toronto and closing Salford, against adding Belgrade and a whole new player pool to RL in Europe.

Events will see this debate out, For the “American dream” to continue Superleague need to leave the way open for straight promotion without licensing, The RFL need to accept New York, and the English clubs need to welcome their players leaving for America only to come back to try rob their former clubs of their places in the Superleague and push all the English clubs down the league. The problem then becomes the demise of the game here.

For too long in our many debates we've come to a massive concensus about how the game could get growth, and that concensus has been that the game needs money. Toronto have access to £Billions from Argyle and so many tend to believe Argyle is our future. The Elephant in the room is he only wants to spend it on himself.

Thanks I was not being obtuse.  Been studying for work and only been skimming headlines in the last few weeks.

 

[brooza]

On 30/10/2017 at 7:06 PM, graveyard johnny said:

I had an uncle who played for red star belgrade

St Albans have a player heading over there for the end of the season http://stalbanscenturions.weebly.com/latest-club-news/niall-braniff-to-play-for-red-star-in-serbia

[Krzzystuff]

7 hours ago, The Parksider said:

For too long in our many debates we've come to a massive concensus about how the game could get growth, and that concensus has been that the game needs money. Toronto have access to £Billions from Argyle and so many tend to believe Argyle is our future. The Elephant in the room is he only wants to spend it on himself.

Ah yes, that greedy Argyle is only spending his money in his team unlike any of the other owners in the RFL, SL especially, who freely give money to other teams, buy them players, upgrade their stadiums and do loads of other charitable stuff for potential competitors.

Never mind the fact that we're refusing central funding and thus giving all league 1 and championship teams more money, attracting bigger crowds to away games (but no away fans mind you) and again increasing revenue, exposing teams to the global market with our televised games and top notch social media team.

But hey we never did put our hand up to pay for the new south stand at Leeds, or to pay for the Belle Vue redevelopment so i guess you are right and Argyle and TWP are just greedy and don't care about anyone else.

[Bob8]

33 minutes ago, Krzzystuff said:

Ah yes, that greedy Argyle is only spending his money in his team unlike any of the other owners in the RFL, SL especially, who freely give money to other teams, buy them players, upgrade their stadiums and do loads of other charitable stuff for potential competitors.

Never mind the fact that we're refusing central funding and thus giving all league 1 and championship teams more money, attracting bigger crowds to away games (but no away fans mind you) and again increasing revenue, exposing teams to the global market with our televised games and top notch social media team.

But hey we never did put our hand up to pay for the new south stand at Leeds, or to pay for the Belle Vue redevelopment so i guess you are right and Argyle and TWP are just greedy and don't care about anyone else.

It is odd. 

- We need money. check.
- Argyle is spending money on TWP. check.
Conclusion: This is bad.

You are generous to argue with something like that.

 

 

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It is odd. 

- We need money. check.
- Argyle is spending money on TWP. check.
Conclusion: This is bad.

You are generous to argue with something like that.

 

 

Yes its a strange one isn't it. Another Argyle in Toulouse, Cardiff, Swansea and London and the game would be laughing.

[DoubleD]

On 01/11/2017 at 7:07 PM, Michael1812 said:

I actually feel fortunate that in all my years touring in bands, that we only ever had to pay off cops twice. At least the Germans only asked our driver to pee in a cup on the side of the road so they could test for drugs. 

That’s what happens when you live the gangster lifestyle ?

[ojx]

14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Toronto have access to £Billions from Argyle and so many tend to believe Argyle is our future. The Elephant in the room is he only wants to spend it on himself.

Because other wealthy club chairmen spread their money to other teams?

[jpmc]

10 hours ago, Krzzystuff said:

Ah yes, that greedy Argyle is only spending his money in his team unlike any of the other owners in the RFL, SL especially, who freely give money to other teams, buy them players, upgrade their stadiums and do loads of other charitable stuff for potential competitors.

Never mind the fact that we're refusing central funding and thus giving all league 1 and championship teams more money, attracting bigger crowds to away games (but no away fans mind you) and again increasing revenue, exposing teams to the global market with our televised games and top notch social media team.

But hey we never did put our hand up to pay for the new south stand at Leeds, or to pay for the Belle Vue redevelopment so i guess you are right and Argyle and TWP are just greedy and don't care about anyone else.

Dont let lenaghan & davey know champ clubs got a bit more money

[iangidds]

Went to watch Red Star play on a beautiful Belgrade afternoon today , great to hear first hand their plans and genuine passion for RL.

Get your teams over here and help grow RL  ...your game needs you ?.

[Exiled Wiganer]

2 hours ago, iangidds said:

Went to watch Red Star play on a beautiful Belgrade afternoon today , great to hear first hand their plans and genuine passion for RL.

Get your teams over here and help grow RL  ...your game needs you ?.

Might not be able to get there in person, but will see what else I can do. That said, we had been thinking of trying eastern Europe next year...