Sack Harry Sunderland!

[The Yonner]

I notice that Jason Robinson will have the honour of presenting the Harry Sunderland Trophy to the player judged to be the best in the Super League Grand Final.
I wonder if Jason is aware that the man the trophy is named after was a notorious racist bigot?

In "A People's Game: The Official History of Rugby League 1895- 1995", author Geoffrey Moorhouse describes how Sunderland, when Manager of Wigan in the late 1930's, treated black winger, Roy Francis:

" Roy Francis of Wigan, Barrow, Dewsbury, Warrington and Hull, spectacular winger and afterwards an inspired coach, had to leave his first club because its new manager had no time for blacks, and was omitted from Risman's touring party because it was expedient to do without him while Australia operated a colour bar, as it did in 1946 and for many years after."

I never understood why, this being revealed in the officially commissioned centenary history of the game, that the Rugby League Writers did not see fit to rename its award, to commemorate a more appropriate historical figure, suitable for the modern age?

If rugby league is serious about projecting an image of an inclusive, modern sport with equal oopportunities for all backgrounds, surely it is high time this glaring anachronism is addressed?

If you want a suggestion for the renamed trophy, how about The Roy Francis Trophy?

 

 

[dkw]

So your 100% certain Roy Francis was completely virtuous and has no skeletons in the closet? 

Basically you cant hold historical figures accountable to modern levels of acceptabilities. They were of there time. If we start going back and digging into every "legends" history then we might as well bin them all of. 

[Just Browny]

3 hours ago, dkw said:

So your 100% certain Roy Francis was completely virtuous and has no skeletons in the closet? 

Basically you cant hold historical figures accountable to modern levels of acceptabilities. They were of there time. If we start going back and digging into every "legends" history then we might as well bin them all of. 

I think we have to be careful not to go to extremes here. I think we should be prepared to bin people off if their behaviours - however accepted at the time - are no longer acceptable.

It would reflect very badly on our game if a black player won the award, but refused it because the person it was named after would have shunned him and ruined his career if he were still around today.

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

I think we have to be careful not to go to extremes here. I think we should be prepared to bin people off if their behaviours - however accepted at the time - are no longer acceptable.

It would reflect very badly on our game if a black player won the award, but refused it because the person it was named after would have shunned him and ruined his career if he were still around today.

The point is though that Sunderland is unlikely to have behaved like that if he was around today, because we (well most of us anyway) view things differently now. 

[gingerjon]

I believe this was raised a few years ago and everyone decided it was fine to allow the trophy to continue to be named after a monstrous racist because everyone was awful at the time.

In possibly related news: how many BAME players does rugby league have these days? Because compared to other sports we look, visibly, far behind.

[Just Browny]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

The point is though that Sunderland is unlikely to have behaved like that if he was around today, because we (well most of us anyway) view things differently now. 

There were lots of people in rugby league in the same era who gave young black players a chance. Let's celebrate those people.

[The Yonner]

4 hours ago, dkw said:

So your 100% certain Roy Francis was completely virtuous and has no skeletons in the closet? 

Basically you cant hold historical figures accountable to modern levels of acceptabilities. They were of there time. If we start going back and digging into every "legends" history then we might as well bin them all of. 

You are correct Harry Sunderland is a historical figure, but the point is the Harry Sunderland Trophy exists in the present.

[Mr Frisky]

4 hours ago, The Yonner said:

I notice that Jason Robinson will have the honour of presenting the Harry Sunderland Trophy to the player judged to be the best in the Super League Grand Final.
I wonder if Jason is aware that the man the trophy is named after was a notorious racist bigot?

In "A People's Game: The Official History of Rugby League 1895- 1995", author Geoffrey Moorhouse describes how Sunderland, when Manager of Wigan in the late 1930's, treated black winger, Roy Francis:

" Roy Francis of Wigan, Barrow, Dewsbury, Warrington and Hull, spectacular winger and afterwards an inspired coach, had to leave his first club because its new manager had no time for blacks, and was omitted from Risman's touring party because it was expedient to do without him while Australia operated a colour bar, as it did in 1946 and for many years after."

I never understood why, this being revealed in the officially commissioned centenary history of the game, that the Rugby League Writers did not see fit to rename its award, to commemorate a more appropriate historical figure, suitable for the modern age?

If rugby league is serious about projecting an image of an inclusive, modern sport with equal oopportunities for all backgrounds, surely it is high time this glaring anachronism is addressed?

If you want a suggestion for the renamed trophy, how about The Roy Francis Trophy?

 

 

First post - very suspicious.

RL is probably the most inclusive team sport in the UK.

As has been said you cant just cherry pick people out of history and then concentrate on just one aspect.

It's like the current climate at Universitys when students in the UK and the US want to remove statues of people for the same reasons - yet usually the people they campaign about had a hand in giving them the chances they enjoy today.

Name 1 person in history or today who is faultless.

Think this first post has been posted just to cause trouble - If he or she is a RL fan I wonder what Yonners opinion is on the GB half back debate..... or the reserve team return etc etc

[Damien]

47 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

In possibly related news: how many BAME players does rugby league have these days? Because compared to other sports we look, visibly, far behind.

I'm not sure about this. I'd say it's more changed rather than declined and has actually probably increased. These days there are an awful lot more players of Polynesian and Melanesian descent than I ever remember.

[The Future is League]

4 hours ago, The Yonner said:

I notice that Jason Robinson will have the honour of presenting the Harry Sunderland Trophy to the player judged to be the best in the Super League Grand Final.
I wonder if Jason is aware that the man the trophy is named after was a notorious racist bigot?

In "A People's Game: The Official History of Rugby League 1895- 1995", author Geoffrey Moorhouse describes how Sunderland, when Manager of Wigan in the late 1930's, treated black winger, Roy Francis:

" Roy Francis of Wigan, Barrow, Dewsbury, Warrington and Hull, spectacular winger and afterwards an inspired coach, had to leave his first club because its new manager had no time for blacks, and was omitted from Risman's touring party because it was expedient to do without him while Australia operated a colour bar, as it did in 1946 and for many years after."

I never understood why, this being revealed in the officially commissioned centenary history of the game, that the Rugby League Writers did not see fit to rename its award, to commemorate a more appropriate historical figure, suitable for the modern age?

If rugby league is serious about projecting an image of an inclusive, modern sport with equal oopportunities for all backgrounds, surely it is high time this glaring anachronism is addressed?

If you want a suggestion for the renamed trophy, how about The Roy Francis Trophy?

 

 

TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT

[yipyee]

This was discussed and allowed to stand.

Like the remoaners some people won't leave things lie and admit defeat.

This will come up every year until current culture changes

[Martyn Sadler]

4 hours ago, The Yonner said:

I notice that Jason Robinson will have the honour of presenting the Harry Sunderland Trophy to the player judged to be the best in the Super League Grand Final.
I wonder if Jason is aware that the man the trophy is named after was a notorious racist bigot?

In "A People's Game: The Official History of Rugby League 1895- 1995", author Geoffrey Moorhouse describes how Sunderland, when Manager of Wigan in the late 1930's, treated black winger, Roy Francis:

" Roy Francis of Wigan, Barrow, Dewsbury, Warrington and Hull, spectacular winger and afterwards an inspired coach, had to leave his first club because its new manager had no time for blacks, and was omitted from Risman's touring party because it was expedient to do without him while Australia operated a colour bar, as it did in 1946 and for many years after."

I never understood why, this being revealed in the officially commissioned centenary history of the game, that the Rugby League Writers did not see fit to rename its award, to commemorate a more appropriate historical figure, suitable for the modern age?

If rugby league is serious about projecting an image of an inclusive, modern sport with equal oopportunities for all backgrounds, surely it is high time this glaring anachronism is addressed?

If you want a suggestion for the renamed trophy, how about The Roy Francis Trophy?

 

 

This issue has come up several times before on this forum.

Geoffrey Moorhouse did make that comment in his book, but only in a hearsay manner, not presenting any evidence to back up that viewpoint.

I contacted a highly respected historian at the University of Queensland with a great interest in Rugby League to ask him whether there was any evidence of racism in anything Sunderland did during his days in his native state.

He confirmed that there wasn't, but that there was a great deal of racism in Australia at that time.

Nonetheless, Sunderland was a prolific journalist at the time, and if he had written one racist word I'm sure it would have been unearthed by a researcher.

So unless that happens, I don't think we should besmirch his character, and we certainly shouldn't consider renaming the trophy that is awarded at the end of the Grand Final.

I should also add that the official history by Moorhouse does have a lot of other errors in it, which were pointed out to me by Robert Gate, another noted Rugby League historian, who in my view should have been given the commission to write that book.

[Just Browny]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

I'm not sure about this. I'd say it's more changed rather than declined and has actually probably increased. These days there are an awful lot more players of Polynesian and Melanesian descent than I ever remember.

Probably two separate questions here.

Q1. Do we have enough BAME players in the top tiers of the UK game?

A. Yes, probably thanks to the Polynesian/Melanesian players you mention.

Q2. Are enough of our UK-developed players from BAME backgrounds?

A. Lots of work still to do, especially in Asian communities given the make-up of many of the towns and cities in West Yorkshire and around Manchester. 

And by the way, this isn't about 'political correctness' or identity politics. It is about saying that if, as some people do, we should be concentrating on heartlands towns like Batley or Bradford (no disrespect to either), we need to be reaching out to the full population in those towns or our base will grow ever smaller.

[Mr Frisky]

2 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Probably two separate questions here.

Q1. Do we have enough BAME players in the top tiers of the UK game?

A. Yes, probably thanks to the Polynesian players you mention.

Q2. Are enough of our UK-developed players from BAME backgrounds?

A. Lots of work still to do, especially in Asian communities given the make-up of many of the towns and cities in West Yorkshire and around Manchester. 

And by the way, this isn't about 'political correctness' or identity politics. It is about saying that if, as some people do, we should be concentrating on heartlands towns like Batley or Bradford (no disrespect to either), we need to be reaching out to the full population in those towns or our base will grow ever smaller.

In that case can we discuss -

Do we have enough Scottish players in our game?

Irish?

French and Welsh are getting there but is it enough??

[Just Browny]

1 minute ago, Mr Frisky said:

In that case can we discuss -

Do we have enough Scottish players in our game?

Irish?

French and Welsh are getting there but is it enough??

Gladly.

No, no, no, and no.

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Probably two separate questions here.

Q1. Do we have enough BAME players in the top tiers of the UK game?

A. Yes, probably thanks to the Polynesian/Melanesian players you mention.

Q2. Are enough of our UK-developed players from BAME backgrounds?

A. Lots of work still to do, especially in Asian communities given the make-up of many of the towns and cities in West Yorkshire and around Manchester. 

And by the way, this isn't about 'political correctness' or identity politics. It is about saying that if, as some people do, we should be concentrating on heartlands towns like Batley or Bradford (no disrespect to either), we need to be reaching out to the full population in those towns or our base will grow ever smaller.

Yes I agree and that was what I was getting at when I said the composition has changed but has probably actually increased. You went into the detail that I was too lazy to do and I do think a lot of work needs to be done within the UK.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Yes I agree and that was what I was getting at when I said the composition has changed but has probably actually increased. You went into the detail that I was too lazy to do and I do think a lot of work needs to be done within the UK.

To cut a long story short, we would like to see a lot more people playing and watching Rugby League regardless of their ethnicity, class, gender, age, nationality or skin colour.

I hope I haven't missed anything out.

[Damien]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To cut a long story short, we would like to see a lot more people playing and watching Rugby League regardless of their ethnicity, class, gender, age, nationality or skin colour.

I hope I haven't missed anything out.

Indeed.

[DoubleD]

2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To cut a long story short, we would like to see a lot more people playing and watching Rugby League regardless of their ethnicity, class, gender, age, nationality or skin colour.

I hope I haven't missed anything out.

You have, hair colour.

Us gingers are a hugely discriminated part of society, where people think it’s still ok to make fun of. The snowflake inside me has never got over this

[Martyn Sadler]

5 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To cut a long story short, we would like to see a lot more people playing and watching Rugby League regardless of their ethnicity, class, gender, age, nationality or skin colour.

I hope I haven't missed anything out.

Actually, I did miss out probably the most important thing of all.

I should have said that we would like to see our new participants and spectators also wanting to read about and give their opinions on Rugby League, by flocking to the shops to buy League Express and Rugby League World and coming to this website, both to read the news and express their views on this forum.

We can but hope.

[Griff]

19 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

To cut a long story short, we would like to see a lot more people playing and watching Rugby League regardless of their ethnicity, class, gender, age, nationality or skin colour.

I hope I haven't missed anything out.

Religion is the obvious one.

[Martyn Sadler]

14 minutes ago, Griff said:

Religion is the obvious one.

Yes, religion and hair colour.

We're probably the most inclusive sport, but sometimes it's hard to remember all the inclusions.

[Wolford6]

Following the decline of the rampant Featherstone team of the 1970's , there's been a marked decrease  in the proportion  of bald players. I blame Thatcher.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

I disagree about this being a trolling, it's a valid point, but we have, as has been pointed out, got to be careful about judging then by now. Harry Sunderland was probably no worse then most people of his generation (and there's quite a few around now). It's like in classical music where what's known as the chattering classes attack Richard Wagner for his anti Semitism while conveniently forgetting that just about everyone of his class in the nineteenth and twentieth century up until 1945 (when the full horrors of the Shoah became known) were as bad or worse than he was.

[Futtocks]

16 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

I disagree about this being a trolling, it's a valid point, but we have, as has been pointed out, got to be careful about judging then by now. Harry Sunderland was probably no worse then most people of his generation (and there's quite a few around now). It's like in classical music where what's known as the chattering classes attack Richard Wagner for his anti Semitism while conveniently forgetting that just about everyone of his class in the nineteenth and twentieth century up until 1945 (when the full horrors of the Shoah became known) were as bad or worse than he was.

Richard Wagner was a pretty nasty character even if you take his antisemitism out of the equation (which you can't, before anyone points out the bleeding obvious). His attitude towards almost everyone he encountered in his life was aggressively obnoxious. And yes, he was a musical genius - just one who needed a few sharp punches in the groin.