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Brian McDermott's Big City Team League

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

Why have other clubs who started in the championship in 1996 with fev been able to achieve thing Fev haven't and why are those clubs uniformly larger urban areas than fev

Whatever the rights of wrongs of what happened at Huddersfield that night, had Fev won I'm sure they'd have performed at least as well as Wakey have and grown their crowds. Had they been promoted when they won the Championship in 2010, 2011 & 2012 you wouldn't have an argument.  By the time P&R came back Fev's team were past its best and they had to rebuild.  They have rebuilt, and last week's game at Toronto was the evidence.  Toronto, rested for a fortnight struggled to beat them for an hour until fatigue caused by two flights abroad and two games in less than seven days caught up with them.

But again the argument isn't about Fev but about big cities.  Again, it's been tried.  It failed.  Probably due to lack of money.  Off you go, found a big city side and get a generous multi billionaire to fund it. There's your chance to prove yourself right.

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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12 hours ago, The Parksider said:

More like a bullet in the brain if we keep replacing clubs here.....But we won't do that, and those people won't have to face questions about more NA clubs coming in because they know Argyle the Aussie is the only backer in America. They go along with the idea this is "expansion" so as not to appear parochial and insular.........

   While the first part of your post is contentious,I would just like to know which club has been replaced? Hemel sold/gave away their position in League 1 to Ottawa - so that is an expansion club from a small town north of London to a larger populated city which may have more wealthy residents/workers.I struggle to think of any other club replaced...

  Most wealthy individuals would be more prepared to get involved with established clubs than start up a new one in an area where the future attendances are uncertain.It says much about the overseas investors,does it not?

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     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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Why doesnt someone dig up some of the many old threads on this subject and there are many . Weve been here before folks 


 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

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2 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

But fev didn't did they, nor did they in any of the subsequent seasons. Toronto have, Salford have, huddersfield have etc etc etc 

You still haven't explained why these clubs have been able to and fev haven't. 

As for your last paragraph, that is exactly what we are seeing. That's why toronto won 26 of 27 league games after losing a GF and fev, well, didnt.

early days, let's see how enthusiastic Toronto's owners and supporters are when the team's getting hammered every week. 

As for Fev. Our day will come.  As I've posted before the loyalty and willingness to support their team, even to the extent of helping erect a stand does them credit. I'd like to see how enthusiastic Leeds fans would be given Fev's circumstances of being excluded from SL, and refused access even when they win the league.  Please don't reply to this, your whole argument is spurious and pointless in the extreme.  It's my opinion that unless and until someone gambles big money on establishing a RL club in a big city, there's no chance of it ever happening.   I really don't think flying teams across the Atlantic week in week out is sustainable in the long term.


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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15 hours ago, The Parksider said:

That is factless rubbish, another terrible post from you. The money is in the pockets of rich men who like Rugby league.

David Hughes is a dyed-in-the-wool league fan from Swinton who made his millions as an oil trader. Hughes, now 73, says. “I would estimate it’s somewhere in the region of £20m probably that I’ve invested in London". Paul Caddick played Rugby union for Headingley, but only a short distance from the league giants Leeds he invested heavily in. The Fulton family who bankroll tiny Castleford on the outskirts of Wakefield  make their money from a predominantly West Yorkshire based food retailers. Ian Lenegan made his money in Milton Keynes but was born and bred in Wigan. Neil Hudgell in Hull makes his money to back Rovers from his solicitors business branches across Yorkshire. Ken Davey was born north of there in Filey but started his businesses in Huddersfield and adopted Fartown, Eamon McManus is a Saints lad. Hull owner Adam Pearson is a Yorkshire lad

Rich RL club owners mostly have an affinity to the RL game itself, if not their home town teams. Had Caddick been born and raised in Pontefract or Featherstone then Fev could easily have been challenging for trophies. Fev did have a rich backer in Faisal Nahaboo. He pulled out of the small club, but equally Richard Branson pulled out of London. Steve O'Connor picked up Widnes and pulled out, and big city Bradford Bulls never found a rich owner, but Salford dropped on three who all pulled out, Snape, Wilkinson and Koukash, little Leigh have Beaumont.Your just plain wrong Scotchy

Toronto are massively lucky to have dropped on an RL enthusiast happy to waste $$Millions on Rugby League. That's not because Toronto is a big city, it's because Argyle has a close affinity with RL being from Australia. TWP are lucky he's in Toronto following his mining interest just as London are lucky  Hughes is down there following his Oil interests. This is why North America as big and rich as it is won't be backing any more clubs from there. The rich people there have never heard of Rugby League and have no affinity with it.....

What is all this "growing and improving the brand" stuff Red? Don't get dragged in by Scotchy.

Just stand back and look at the facts. We attract most of our private investor money from people within the game who have mainly grown up in the game. Argyle loves Rugby league because he's from the NRL. Sure outsiders have come to live in the north of England and got interested like Kurdi in Newcastle and Koukash when he came to live in Lancashire. Often when we have lost a rich northern owner like Arthur Thomas another has stepped in like Derek Beaumont. Ted Richardson left Wakefield who now have Michael Carter. If Argyle walks that's that.

The brand is strong along the M62 so we attract rich owners along the M62. Not in Barcelona or Copenhagen places TWP want to swan about pretending to grow the game, when in fact they are avoiding the bad weather in Canada. You say The risk of accepting these phoney clubs is you kill the existing.

That's no risk it's a certainty, you can't shift out five SL clubs for TWP and four more like them without ripping the game apart here. I've spent the last week listening to RL people on the media all too scared to discuss TWP's promotion, all calling it "expansion" all calling it "a great thing" a "shot in the arm".

More like a bullet in the brain if we keep replacing clubs here.....But we won't do that, and those people won't have to face questions about more NA clubs coming in because they know Argyle the Aussie is the only backer in America. They go along with the idea this is "expansion" so as not to appear parochial and insular.........

You make a lot of good points, so much so I’m having to rethink my previous comment backing Scotchy and his “big city clubs attract more investment” point. 

His point definitely works in football (maybe that’s where I was influenced in backing him), as rich investors see huge potential in areas with a greater populous  (Abramovich invested in Chelsea thanks in large part to their location). 

The money maybe just isn’t there to be made in RL which would make them attractive to investors with no tangible connection to RL, rather it’s rich men who love RL who are willing to throw millions away (and in their own local clubs regardless of size).

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31 minutes ago, Trojan said:

early days, let's see how enthusiastic Toronto's owners and supporters are when the team's getting hammered every week

As for Fev. Our day will come.  As I've posted before the loyalty and willingness to support their team, even to the extent of helping erect a stand does them credit. I'd like to see how enthusiastic Leeds fans would be given Fev's circumstances of being excluded from SL, and refused access even when they win the league.  Please don't reply to this, your whole argument is spurious and pointless in the extreme.  It's my opinion that unless and until someone gambles big money on establishing a RL club in a big city, there's no chance of it ever happening.   I really don't think flying teams across the Atlantic week in week out is sustainable in the long term.

I don’t think they operate like us on this side of the Atlantic (the fans that is). Watching the last two Toronto games (It was either the million pound game or the one before that), during a conversion kick I could see lots of people walking at the bottom of the stand in the opposite direction of the kick (so no way could they see it), they had other things on their mind. The game isn’t that important (certainly not the way we watch sport here). It’s a day out. My brother went to baseball (rounders) games in Texas and was astounded at the lack of attention to the game...people wandering about/loads of chit chat/buying food etc. It’s a different world. They don’t get caught up in the result like here.

I’ve a quote from a study about the lack of community in sports there (explains why the franchises move around and nobody bats an eyelid). It’s a transient fanbase. They are there one minute, on to something else the next. There isn’t the deep seated connection with the “franchise” that we have with our clubs here. When our club loses, we get affected by it more, and are more liable to get fed up. Over there it’s just a day out at whatever franchise is around at that time.

Heres the quote (it’s America, but Canada has the same NA franchise system/culture)

“In America, there is a demand for profit maximisation and an acceptance of club franchise moves, related to potentially larger supporter catchment areas, rather than any community history of support. This demonstrates that the close community ties associated with British sport tend not to exist in America. The importance of the local rivalries and community spirit that sport in Britain exhibits, have been neglected within the American literature relating to professional team sports.”

Page 64 (page 65 mentions the importance of sport here (“a religious or quasi-religious experience”) as opposed to sport there. 


http://shura.shu.ac.uk/3161/2/10697447.pdf

Edited by DC77

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On 12/10/2019 at 08:37, scotchy1 said:

This thread is about SL and its need for big clubs.

OK we need Ottawa, Barcelona, New York, Copenhagen Vancouver, Paris, Montreal, London, Rome, Perth, Toronto, Belgrade and Leeds. And we do not need Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull.K.R, Castleford, Wakefield, Huddersfield, York, Leigh Halifax and Featherstone

We can organise this between us Scotchy!  I will ring Messrs Lenegan, McManus, Moran, Hudgell, Fulton, Carter, Davey, Flatman, Beaumont, Grayson and Campbell and tell them they are parochial and small time and of no use to Rugby League, get lost!. You can ring round all the rich investors in all those big international cities and offer them the chance to own an RL Superleague Franchise.( You may have to explain what Rugby league is to them though??)

Now can you see how silly your being??

On 13/10/2019 at 01:59, TIWIT said:

You have no problem appearing parochial and insular. Because of course you are. Not to mention arrogant, convinced that all those RL media people you listen to are either scared or wrong and you and you alone are right.

Every post you do tries to isolate me as a lone voice.

As  TWP were leaving the obscurity of the Championship guess what? McManus came out for SL and condemned TWP as a phoney club they don't want but are stuck with due to the separation agreement between RFL & SL there would be P& R.   Then Love RL and Hull newspapers do polls amongst the fans on what they think TWP bring to the game. Just as most SL bosses think they are phoneys so do 70% of the fans polled who don't see the point of them against who? You and a dozen dreamers on here??

I think it's you that are in a tiny minority of people who can't accept TWP are what thousands know they are, An Australians plaything, based in Manchester,  flying off to Canada to pretend to be expansion in a country that McDermott now admits there will be no TV deal and Perez admits there's no Canadian players as it hasn't been easy to find or develop any. Give me something of substance that TWP offer here in this country? 

As for the RL Media they serve all fans and just about make a living doing that. I don't expect them to take sides - just wish for the best for all clubs. These guys need to stay neutral to maintain a living which I have contributed to for 50 years buying all their publications. I earn a say on here, which is SL bosses and 70% of fans can't see the point of TWP.

18 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

I would just like to know which club has been replaced?

London Broncos had a great season, surprised many and now we have to lose an important club in terms of our geographical spread here to a phoney club who bring nothing to the game. No London on SKY and no pathway to SL for their Academy players. 

It's a horrible blow to the game here but SL were stuck with it as part of the separation agreement from the RFL. I think once we get to the new SKY deal, we will be able to put this nonsense behind us. As for your probing question you got an answer. Now tell me this, TWP promised players and TV deals - NOT fans - McDermott has admitted they can't get TV deals and Perez admitted there are no players because in the end that was "not easy".

So they should really stand down on these broken promises shouldn't they? What a blow to lose London......

Edited by The Parksider
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2 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Every post you do tries to isolate me as a lone voice.

As  TWP were leaving the obscurity of the Championship guess what? McManus came out for SL and condemned TWP as a phoney club they don't want but are stuck with due to the separation agreement between RFL & SL there would be P& R.   Then Love RL and Hull newspapers do polls amongst the fans on what they think TWP bring to the game. Just as most SL bosses think they are phoneys so do 70% of the fans polled who don't see the point of them against who? You and a dozen dreamers on here??

I think it's you that are in a tiny minority of people who can't accept TWP are what thousands know they are, An Australians plaything, based in Manchester,  flying off to Canada to pretend to be expansion in a country that McDermott now admits there will be no TV deal and Perez admits there's no Canadian players as it hasn't been easy to find or develop any. Give me something of substance that TWP offer here in this country? 

As for the RL Media they serve all fans and just about make a living doing that. I don't expect them to take sides - just wish for the best for all clubs. These guys need to stay neutral to maintain a living which I have contributed to for 50 years buying all their publications. I earn a say on here, which is SL bosses and 70% of fans can't see the point of TWP.

 

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On 13/10/2019 at 10:48, The Parksider said:

The money is in the pockets of rich men who like Rugby league.

Who never get a return on their investments because the code never grows out of its small town parochialism? 

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4 hours ago, The Parksider said:

OK we need Ottawa, Barcelona, New York, Copenhagen Vancouver, Paris, Montreal, London, Rome, Perth, Toronto, Belgrade and Leeds. And we do not need Wigan, Saints, Warrington, Hull.K.R, Castleford, Wakefield, Huddersfield, York, Leigh Halifax and Featherstone

We can organise this between us Scotchy!  I will ring Messrs Lenegan, McManus, Moran, Hudgell, Fulton, Carter, Davey, Flatman, Beaumont, Grayson and Campbell and tell them they are parochial and small time and of no use to Rugby League, get lost!. You can ring round all the rich investors in all those big international cities and offer them the chance to own an RL Superleague Franchise.( You may have to explain what Rugby league is to them though??)

Now can you see how silly your being??

Every post you do tries to isolate me as a lone voice.

As  TWP were leaving the obscurity of the Championship guess what? McManus came out for SL and condemned TWP as a phoney club they don't want but are stuck with due to the separation agreement between RFL & SL there would be P& R.   Then Love RL and Hull newspapers do polls amongst the fans on what they think TWP bring to the game. Just as most SL bosses think they are phoneys so do 70% of the fans polled who don't see the point of them against who? You and a dozen dreamers on here??

I think it's you that are in a tiny minority of people who can't accept TWP are what thousands know they are, An Australians plaything, based in Manchester,  flying off to Canada to pretend to be expansion in a country that McDermott now admits there will be no TV deal and Perez admits there's no Canadian players as it hasn't been easy to find or develop any. Give me something of substance that TWP offer here in this country? 

As for the RL Media they serve all fans and just about make a living doing that. I don't expect them to take sides - just wish for the best for all clubs. These guys need to stay neutral to maintain a living which I have contributed to for 50 years buying all their publications. I earn a say on here, which is SL bosses and 70% of fans can't see the point of TWP.

London Broncos had a great season, surprised many and now we have to lose an important club in terms of our geographical spread here to a phoney club who bring nothing to the game. No London on SKY and no pathway to SL for their Academy players. 

It's a horrible blow to the game here but SL were stuck with it as part of the separation agreement from the Championship. I think once we get to the new SKY deal, we will be able to put this nonsense behind us. As for your probing question you got an answer. Now tell me this, TWP promised players and TV deals - NOT fans - McDermott has admitted they can't get TV deals and Perez admitted there are no players because in the end that was "not easy".

So they should really stand down on these broken promises shouldn't they? What a blow to lose London......

How can we stop this endless cycle of Twp discussion and look towards the future?

We have already seen that Twp can attract viewing figures such as last week so the whole argument that sky don't want Twp is laughable. Broadcasters only care about viewing numbers, not where they come from.

As for the constant Perez name dropping, he has moved on from twp, so anything he has said regarding Toronto is now redundant and irrelevant. For the record though, he never promised anything. He said these are things we believe will happen or want to do, but was never put down in contractual terms as we have now seen with Super League welcoming them into the top flight. 

Twp have satisfied whatever criteria Super League needed, and clearly Canadian players and a tv deal were not part of this criteria because if they were, they would not have been promoted.

For the last point, I believe this forum is a fair reflection on the public perception of twp. On this forum, we all come from different backgrounds, demographics and nations, just like the real world. If you look at the percentages regarding pro wolfpack as opposed to against, it's roughly 10 to 1 in favour of what they are doing. This number would be even greater outside of the Uk as I have not heard anything negative regarding twp in Australia for example. You can keep your two polls to yourself as one of them didn't even involve the club, it was the coach. 

How about you actually debates some points or end this daily endless cycle?

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1 minute ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt matter how 'enthusiastic' the owners are, Fevs owners can be the most enthusiastic people possible, but if they dont have millions they cant spend millions

 

Leeds wouldnt be in fevs circumstances because leeds is a big city with money and sponsors. Its not luck that leeds have never been relegated. 

Even if leeds were excluded at the beginning they wouldnt have spent a quarter of a century in the lower tiers because the money and fans they have would got them back up. 

Fev arent small because they are in the lower leagues, they are in the lower leagues because they are small. They have no entitlement to compete at the top, and no reason to assume they can.

Blahdy blah blah blah blah put another record on


“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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9 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Record? Alright grandad

Not really an insult, I am one

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“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

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14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

London Broncos had a great season, surprised many and now we have to lose an important club in terms of our geographical spread here to a phoney club who bring nothing to the game. No London on SKY and no pathway to SL for their Academy players. 

It's a horrible blow to the game here but SL were stuck with it as part of the separation agreement from the RFL. I think once we get to the new SKY deal, we will be able to put this nonsense behind us. As for your probing question you got an answer. Now tell me this, TWP promised players and TV deals - NOT fans - McDermott has admitted they can't get TV deals and Perez admitted there are no players because in the end that was "not easy".

So they should really stand down on these broken promises shouldn't they? What a blow to lose London......

  I think you'll find London Broncos were out of Super League long before Toronto Wolfpack were ever conceived.

Do you just want a closed shop with the current elite clubs,and London? London are an expansion club some distance from the M62.What were your thoughts in the 1980's?

  London and Sheffield taking players from the M62 corridor and offering nothing to the sport?

  Should the elite clubs,at present,stand down as they can't be certain of bringing a suitable/increased broadcasting deal? After well over a century there is a dearth of highly skilled players,lagging well behind other nations.With the referee slayer stating that his Grand Final winning side contained players that went through his academy,and were from the town,I counted less than half his side were local.

Not every club benefits from the biennial tour to Australia as enjoyed by St Helens Academy;because the other clubs don't get the benefit of the broadcasting deal unless they are classed as an elite club.

 Anyway,we now know you don't want promotion/relegation thereby preventing the luxury of the free to have,hope,that supporters of the game,and all sports have,in the closed season.

 You also want clubs who cannot provide a broadcasting deal  to stand down,because the elite clubs have failed to improve after all the years that they have benefited from a broadcasting deal.

  Crackin'.

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     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt matter how 'enthusiastic' the owners are, Fevs owners can be the most enthusiastic people possible, but if they dont have millions they cant spend millions

 

Leeds wouldnt be in fevs circumstances because leeds is a big city with money and sponsors. Its not luck that leeds have never been relegated. 

Even if leeds were excluded at the beginning they wouldnt have spent a quarter of a century in the lower tiers because the money and fans they have would got them back up. 

Fev arent small because they are in the lower leagues, they are in the lower leagues because they are small. They have no entitlement to compete at the top, and no reason to assume they can.

Reight comidian you pal lol ? ? 

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt matter how 'enthusiastic' the owners are, Fevs owners can be the most enthusiastic people possible, but if they dont have millions they cant spend millions

Fev arent small because they are in the lower leagues, they are in the lower leagues because they are small. They have no entitlement to compete at the top, and no reason to assume they can.

Ooooooh Scotchy, their not going to like that. 

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5 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

It doesnt matter how 'enthusiastic' the owners are, Fevs owners can be the most enthusiastic people possible, but if they dont have millions they cant spend millions

 

Leeds wouldnt be in fevs circumstances because leeds is a big city with money and sponsors. Its not luck that leeds have never been relegated. 

Even if leeds were excluded at the beginning they wouldnt have spent a quarter of a century in the lower tiers because the money and fans they have would got them back up. 

Fev arent small because they are in the lower leagues, they are in the lower leagues because they are small. They have no entitlement to compete at the top, and no reason to assume they can.

Reads like a Two Ronnies sketch with John Cleese.

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Leveraging the modern world to their advantage, it's possible for smaller clubs to punch above their weight.

And it's just as true to say that if that modernity isn't taken advantage of, then larger clubs can waste their potential.

But for anything to survive and proper - at whatever level - a club has to live now and not in the past. I don't think some people properly appreciate this. 

By any objective measure, rugby league as a sport really is an incredibe spectacle.

It's a shame then that it's often defined by a low grade parochialism that seeks to be offended - my garden is the best garden because your garden isn't mine! 

If the code's administrators are drawn from that crowd, then quite simply, the code has no real future.

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While the sentiment might be correct ' a genuine SL of big city clubs ' would probably be better for the game , it isn't happening any time soon , and probably isn't going to happen full stop 

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39 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

While the sentiment might be correct ' a genuine SL of big city clubs ' would probably be better for the game , it isn't happening any time soon , and probably isn't going to happen full stop 

Not in any of our lifetimes. 

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17 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its happening now. Even under P+R we could easily, in 5 to 10 years have a super league of 

Leeds, Manchester (Wigan and Salford) Hull, Liverpool (Saints) Hull, Les.Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto, cheshire (warrington) wakefield (cas or wakefield or both) huddersfield 

We could even be growing the size of the league adding London and Newcastle, we have Bradford and Sheffield if they sort their stadium issues the expansion clubs in NA in Ottawa and NYC

That's a big city league

No , not really it isn't , certainly not in the way Mr McDermott or any sensible person sees it 

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35 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Its happening now. Even under P+R we could easily, in 5 to 10 years have a super league of 

Leeds, Manchester (Wigan and Salford) Hull, Liverpool (Saints) Hull, Les.Catalans, Toulouse, Toronto, cheshire (warrington) wakefield (cas or wakefield or both) huddersfield 

We could even be growing the size of the league adding London and Newcastle, we have Bradford and Sheffield if they sort their stadium issues the expansion clubs in NA in Ottawa and NYC

That's a big city league

Wigan aren’t a Manchester club, Saints aren’t a Liverpool club, Cheshire is a county not a city, Wakefield isn’t very big and Castleford certainly isn't. Sheffield, Huddersfield and Tolouse are obviously bigger but none of them will sustain decent SL crowds any time soon and neither will London. Other than that though, excellent. 

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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:

While the sentiment might be correct ' a genuine SL of big city clubs ' would probably be better for the game , it isn't happening any time soon , and probably isn't going to happen full stop 

If it is better for the game, why would anyone work against it? 

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