Ball Playing 13s

[Cheshire Setter]

9 hours ago, aj1908 said:

So.What's.good.with ball in hand ?

Sam Burgess?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/aug/13/sam-burgess-ban-squirrel-grip

[aj1908]

50 minutes ago, headtackle said:

Didnt get to play a great deal in that GF did he. 

Seem to remember he was neutralised quite early on 

No he didn't unfortunately 

[Sports Prophet]

On 15/01/2020 at 11:56, The Phantom Horseman said:

Keith Bell at Featherstone was very much a ball-playing 13, in fact his contributions running with the ball or tackling were negligible but everything revolved around him in attack during the many years he played for Fev. Jack Bussey today is probably as close as you'd see to an old-fashioned ball playing 13 though he nominally plays any position from prop to half back. Scott Murell again reminds me of some of the old-fashioned ball-playing 13s though again nominally he plays half back.

Nowadays it's hard to actually identify any difference in role between most players who play 8, 10 and 13 so you might as well change the terminology to "ball-playing middle". Maybe Adam Cuthbertson would qualify under that criteria?

I agree and would include the attire pack bar the hooker.

The best ball playing forward in the world at the moment is without doubt Wade Graham.

[rlno1]

On 16/01/2020 at 04:25, fighting irish said:

Bring back Harry Pinner. To confound and bewilder the opposition defenders, with ........his hands. A master ball player. 

Pinner was brilliant.....just as an example watch the 3rd test in 1986 v Australia where he constantly opens the Australian defence with sublime passing. Brilliant player.

[dealwithit]

Farrell was brilliant. Asiata could be a great 13, but they play him at 8 or 6.

The Greek lock that plays for Newtown is fantastic. 

[HarrogateKnights]

Joe Batchelor currently at St Helens is a potential 13 moving forwards. He is 6ft 1, approx. 14 stone, got deceptive pace and knows how to finish. When he was with York we often played him 2nd row but I felt he could and did on occasion easily slot into the 13 spot allowing for space for another 2nd rower. 41 tries in 54 York Appearances shows he can do it. Still young enough to improve too (25)

[Harry Stottle]

On 15/01/2020 at 11:49, del capo said:

 I would put Mike Gregory up there with them

What about Georve Nichols?

[Lowdesert]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

What about Georve Nichols?

Good player.  Split between 2nd row and LF and had a good offload that’s for sure.

[CrushersForever]

Not to go on Schoey on it and start pining for the past, but there were some great Australian players running around in the 90s and early 2000s who could interchangeably play loose forward or stand off, like Jim Dymock, Jason Smith, Greg Florimo and Jason Croker.

[Niggley]

Bob Haigh was an exceptional ball player even in his later years with Bradford Northern

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, CrushersForever said:

Not to go on Schoey on it and start pining for the past, but there were some great Australian players running around in the 90s and early 2000s who could interchangeably play loose forward or stand off, like Jim Dymock, Jason Smith, Greg Florimo and Jason Croker.

And Brad Fittler who was one of the very best.

[Bob8]

On 16/01/2020 at 11:39, Dave T said:

I agree. The kind of player I think of are the actual players who could interchange between 13 and 6 - certainly O'Loughlin, Sculthorpe, Sinfield, Farrell etc. but I'm not so sure about the likes of Mike Gregory.

I am relieved that some of those finally had a mention on this thread.

[The King Of Leon]

in his later days at Hunslet Johney Wolford played loose forward , boy he could open up a defence

[Superb Chops]

Add John Pendlebury to the list please. Like Pinner a loose forward who could lay a ball off.

Coupled with the stand-off likes of John Woods and Tony Myler, we had elegant options back in the eighties.

[BroncoFan]

On 16/01/2020 at 22:41, Morris Wanchuk said:

Is this the lad that Wakey signed and then sent on loan to Newcastle?

That’s him mate

[BroncoFan]

Did anyone see Chris Arkwright play, I seem to remember him being a skilful backrower 

[aj1908]

12 hours ago, Dunbar said:

And Brad Fittler who was one of the very best.

hes a 6 though not really a lock

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

hes a 6 though not really a lock

The comment that I quoted when I mentioned Fitler was "but there were some great Australian players running around in the 90s and early 2000s who could interchangeably play loose forward or stand off".

Fittler absolutely fits into this category, not least that he earned a number of his Kangaroo caps as a lock.

[Cas Vegas]

On 16/01/2020 at 09:51, Kenilworth Tiger said:

John Joyner, Tawerea Nikau, Harry Pinner, to name 3 others - Knocker was different gravy though, I'll give you that one

When I was a kid, No.13 was a glamour-position - first time I played there I was so thrilled.

Harry Pinner at Sts was ace, Knocker Norton at Cas & Ulleffsee was ace, Divorty at Ulleffsee & ****s was pretty good, Smith at Ulleffsee as well (this is getting bizarre!), Holliday at Fax & Widniz... In the 50's/60's, Raper, Whiteley, Rocky Turner & Vinty were regarded as the cream in that role. Joyner at Cas was pretty mesmerising for defenders (although I think he went to LF as he was getting old, Kenni?). Ellery? An amazing runner, but no ball-player.

Best one by a country mile is Reilly. Ask The Australians about him.

It's not even close. Shut the gate.

ckn? You can close the thread now.

[Cas Vegas]

On 17/01/2020 at 02:31, Sports Prophet said:

I agree and would include the attire pack bar the hooker.

The best ball playing forward in the world at the moment is without doubt Wade Graham.

Agree with that. I think he played at six whilst growing up, but just kept growing!

As a juniors coach, I used him as an example to my forwards. "Look at him! Every time he's got that ball in two hands! What's he gonna do? Smash it in? Run over you? Grubber? Short-ball? Bomb? Off-load? Chip? Hand-off? As a defender, it's a nightmare!!! Watch THAT bloke & copy him".

Needless to say five of the lads paid attention & are now signed on with ESL clubs.

[Sports Prophet]

@Cas Vegas, you are right on. He attacks the line with the ball in both hands and then can take any one of those options.

His return from long term ACL injury and coming off the bench to dominate Qld at 5/8 for NSW in Origin a week or two later was one of the best Individual performances of 2019.

[Cas Vegas]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

@Cas Vegas, you are right on. He attacks the line with the ball in both hands and then can take any one of those options.

His return from long term ACL injury and coming off the bench to dominate Qld at 5/8 for NSW in Origin a week or two later was one of the best Individual performances of 2019.

Totes. A proper player that lad. I used send clips of him to the kids. Some of them will (like I did) grow incredibly quickly, so I made sure the half-backs were aware too (as in, like myself, you might end up in the forwards).

Brian Lockwood (now check out HIS medal collection & honours) was also used as a template for the props & the idiots playing in the 2nd row.

[bobbruce]

I’d say the best actual ball playing loose forward was without doubt Pinner. Whether that be a little short ball to someone on his shoulder or his trade mark looped pass for the winger to run on to. The amount of times these passes put someone through a gap. Undoubtedly there were better loose forwards than Harry but I’ve never seen a better ball player. 

[Cas Vegas]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I think you are conflating two arguments here.

Yes, the ball playing 13 is not a key part of the game any more but that is because of the way the game has evolved, not evidence of a lack of skill in the game.

Another current thread is the 1986 3rd Ashes test.  Take a look at the team Great Britain put out that day and compare to how the modern England team will play (let's not judge the results, just the style).

The 13 in 1986 was a creative player (Harry Pinner) who complemented the halves.  The creative 'axis' was therefore the 6, 7 & 13.

In the modern era, much more is expected of the hooker as a creative player and when you compare the way that a Hodgson plays compared to David Watkinson in that test, Hodgson is much more creative.

And then there is the role of the full back.  In the mid 80's the full back was a defender, a runner and a supporting player.  Today, the full back is a key pivot in the game.

The 6, 7 & 9 axis has been replaced by the 1, 6, 7 & 9. 

Finally, look at the second row's as attacking edge players... the likes of Whitehead and Bateman are much more skilful with the ball in their hands than the second rows were for Great Britain in the 80's.

In summary, yes we have lost the ball playing 13 which I think is a shame but that doesn't evidence that the modern game is any less skilful that previous era's because it simply isn't... it's just different.

Agree largely. It used to be the "Scrum-base-trio" of 6/7/13. Watkinson could win the scrums in a way that Beardmore couldn't - but there's no argument over who invented the whole "darting from half-back" thing.

Although when Daryl Powell moved Adam Milner to 13, McShane to 9, Gale & Roberts at halves & brought Zak in at 1, suddenly there was a side playing with five pivots (& Rangi coming off the bench). No-one could deal with it until Zak got caught. 

Best ESL I've ever seen - and yes I'm utterly biased - but the way they cut loose was incredible.

[Rupert Prince]

On 15/01/2020 at 17:06, sentoffagain2 said:

In the modern game we should do away with 13 and play without a loose forward.Fewer interchanges so the forward tire and the backs have a bit of room to play in.

And a centre and play 11 a side, slightly narrow pitch.