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Themusician_2

Why are Salford’s attendances always so poor?

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13 hours ago, Hopping Mad said:

Salford City, now in the Football League, don’t count?

Great post... adds a lot to the thread.

I said "almost" the only source of civic pride.


Rugby League: Alive and Handling

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55 minutes ago, Celt said:

Great post... adds a lot to the thread.

I said "almost" the only source of civic pride.

Actually, you said "basically the only source of civic pride..." But, by all means, make it up as you go along.

I'd have thought the presence in Salford of a Football League club (owned by a bunch of multi-millionaires) is likely to have an effect on the rugby league club's ability to attract spectators. Or is that too obvious for you?

Edited by Hopping Mad
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11 hours ago, fieldofclothofgold said:

What are acceptable average attendances in RL anyway? . I think the thing with Salford are similar to Huddersfield.  Both clubs used to have good fan bases and used to win things ,but then we t through too long a time out of the limelight and lost a generation of fans 

Huddersfield lost more than a generation, it's 60 years since we were anything like successful, and had to build back up from almost scratch.

For 20 years, we hadn't been anywhere near the top flight, we struggled to just keep going for a lot of those years, never mind be a half decent top flight club,  there's no comparison really with any other established SL club, they were all more or less established top flight clubs for the majority of the last 50 years.

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8 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Actually, you said "basically the only source of civic pride..." But, by all means, make it up as you go along.

I'd have thought the presence of a Football League club in Salford is likely to have an effect on the rugby league club's ability to attract spectators. Or is that too obvious for you?

again - a great contribution that adds a lot to the thread... really constructive.   You are right, i said 'basically' not 'almost'. 

The club moved into their current stadium in 2012 - and the football team got into the football league when? this season?  last season?  (I have no interest in English football, but you probably live on Google so can quickly look it up and quote the date like the sniveling little class swot we all once knew...)

The club have had a lengthy run at building up crowds without any football team in Salford as opposition.  If Salford FC's fourth division football team steals their fans, then they may as well pack up as Man Utd across the street have crowds literally 20x larger going through their gates.  

In any case, the OP was asking about why their attendances are always so poor.  Not this year specifically.  Your suggestions so far appear to be non-existent, but some great policing of semantics all the same.  


Rugby League: Alive and Handling

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Could it be there is more than one reason and your all right?

maybe rl just isn’t that good and it can only thrive in areas where there isn’t much else going on? Or it’s new and has a certain novelty value in other locations.

Edited by redsi42
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5 hours ago, Padge said:

Apples and pears.

Toronto is a completely different beast to Salford.

yes salford is a club around for almost 140 years in a country where league has some foundation.  the club has a new ground and is close to other rugby league clubs so gets more away fans.

and salford had a rich sugar daddy before like argyle is with the wolfpack

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I think the RFL need to get into the schools/local authorities and promote touch, wheel chair, women’s etc make them Rugby League games. With the 2021 WC we have a big chance to influence the general public. I was pleased to see young lads on the tram from Timperley/alty with Salford shirts the other day talking about the match. I’ve converted the mrs away from union as well 👌

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17 hours ago, aj1908 said:

At the willows they were averaging 5k or so 

Maybe their crowds have risen from lows but they have been falling for ages 

Now without koucash support they will fall back down the table after one excellent year off Jackson Hastings back 

It's why super league is stagnant

Clubs like wakey hull kr or Salford have one breakout year then sink back to mediocrity.

 

That's not correct, they only have hit a 5K average (or greater), 3x times in the past 40 years, and only 2x of those times were at the Willows.

In the years 1980 - 2011 when they were at the Willows and in the 'top tier', they averaged closer to 4K.  Avg. crowds below:

image.png.2e45cfed818bc38f70a214561b0a1e21.png

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Just for those curious, here is Sale's total attendances at AJ Bell since moving in 2012:

2012/13: 80,201
2013/14: 69,851
2014/15: 73,261
2015/16: 67,667
2016/17: 68,220
2017/18: 69,015
2018/19: 72,443
2019/20: 28,802*

My understanding is this is from 11 home matches... however I'm not 100% confident.    To draw comparison, the Red Devils drew a cumulative 51,476 last year and 30,236 the year before. 

There is no reason why Salford can't reach Sale level crowds in a few years, which would possibly stop a lot of these types of threads, if they can continue to do alright on the pitch and continue to invest in marketing their games.  


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19 hours ago, TboneFromTO said:

But last year's average was only 8.5k. Does that mean half our attendances aren't acceptable?

They are comparable with both drawing about 45% of their leagues average.

It depends on how teams preform 

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19 hours ago, LR23 said:

It's not that complicated really and a few posters have touched on it: We've been dire for too long and rugby league is far too unfashionable in such a big metropolitan area to support a continually unsuccessful team. Big city kids don't care about rugby league.

Now we've actually brought about some success we have no money to maintain it. The one star player we had who was a big draw for younger fans and a hit on social media actually wanted to stay but we couldn't even afford a relatively modest £250k (we probably could have if we'd know we'd make the Grand Final but nobody predicted that mid season). We haven't got anyone anywhere near the same level fan engagement wise.

So the club could do all sorts with the community and transport (which it is within budget) but that isn't really going to do more than bring in a handful of extra fans. Now we have a solid set up, what we need is money and sustained success - either that or for rugby league to suddenly become the next big thing with the kids. I won't hold my breath on the latter.

I agree it’s starts young. Another reason why RL needs to get into schools. 

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5 hours ago, Yakstorm said:

Just for those curious, here is Sale's total attendances at AJ Bell since moving in 2012:

2012/13: 80,201
2013/14: 69,851
2014/15: 73,261
2015/16: 67,667
2016/17: 68,220
2017/18: 69,015
2018/19: 72,443
2019/20: 28,802*

My understanding is this is from 11 home matches... however I'm not 100% confident.    To draw comparison, the Red Devils drew a cumulative 51,476 last year and 30,236 the year before. 

There is no reason why Salford can't reach Sale level crowds in a few years, which would possibly stop a lot of these types of threads, if they can continue to do alright on the pitch and continue to invest in marketing their games.  

One previous user made the point that sale have more fans due to union fans in the north of England having less teams to support. So comparing to attendances with sake might not help salfords situation.

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5 hours ago, Yakstorm said:

Just for those curious, here is Sale's total attendances at AJ Bell since moving in 2012:

2012/13: 80,201
2013/14: 69,851
2014/15: 73,261
2015/16: 67,667
2016/17: 68,220
2017/18: 69,015
2018/19: 72,443
2019/20: 28,802*

My understanding is this is from 11 home matches... however I'm not 100% confident.    To draw comparison, the Red Devils drew a cumulative 51,476 last year and 30,236 the year before. 

There is no reason why Salford can't reach Sale level crowds in a few years, which would possibly stop a lot of these types of threads, if they can continue to do alright on the pitch and continue to invest in marketing their games.  

Comparing Salford with Sale is pointless really, Sale don't have any competition from other RU clubs in the area, indeed, they have the whole of the North West and North Midlands to get stuck into.

 

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I really cant see what the Red Devils bring to Super League.

They certainly don't bring big crowds and certainly not locally produced players.

Newcastle and London even though not in Super League bring a lot more juniors through than the Red Devils and for a club that's been going for over 100 years that's very poor

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10 hours ago, Celt said:

again - a great contribution that adds a lot to the thread... really constructive.   You are right, i said 'basically' not 'almost'. 

The club moved into their current stadium in 2012 - and the football team got into the football league when? this season?  last season?  (I have no interest in English football, but you probably live on Google so can quickly look it up and quote the date like the sniveling little class swot we all once knew...)

The club have had a lengthy run at building up crowds without any football team in Salford as opposition.  If Salford FC's fourth division football team steals their fans, then they may as well pack up as Man Utd across the street have crowds literally 20x larger going through their gates.  

In any case, the OP was asking about why their attendances are always so poor.  Not this year specifically.  Your suggestions so far appear to be non-existent, but some great policing of semantics all the same.  

Wow. So aggressive, and so many assumptions. 

Salford RL's crowds have been generally in decline pretty much all the time I've been watching rugby league - since the mid-1970s.

At present, they have maybe 2,500-3,000 diehards, who will go along whether they're good, bad or indifferent. Now the sugar daddy has lost interest, those attendances won't sustain a Super League team.

You don't think Salford RL might have lost even a few fans to Salford City FC, whose crowds have grown from circa 50 to circa 2,500 since the Man U old boys took over? I'd hazard a few 'floating' Salford sports fans - the sort the rugby league club need to attract to increase their crowds - have been lured to Salford City, perhaps merely by promotion after promotion. People prefer success to stagnation. Not to mention subsidised entry. It's only a tenner to watch fourth tier football at Salford City. How much is at Salford RL this season?

Either as a neutral, or supporting the team I used to follow, I went to The Willows many times over the years. I've been once to the AJ Bell, and that was enough. Because it's a pain to get to and away from (especially for evening games), the atmosphere is poor, one can't stand on the side of the ground (not for the match I went to) and Salford (last season's blip apart) aren't particularly competitive in Super League.

I emailed Salford a few weeks ago with a query about the season ahead. They couldn't muster even the courtesy of a reply. Ninety per cent of the other clubs I contacted responded (several via their CEOs).

Next time I'm over that way, looking for some sporting entertainment, I'll watch either Swinton RL or Salford City or the T20 at Old Trafford. You reap what you sow.

Edited by Hopping Mad

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14 hours ago, Padge said:

Apples and pears.

Toronto is a completely different beast to Salford.

Correct.

Books have been written about the difference in fan culture between here and North America. I quoted a paragraph a few months back. They all say the same thing; here teams are deeply entrenched in their local communities that they represent, this does not exist there. The passage I quoted stated the connection fans feel to their team here is almost “spiritual”. How your team does affects your own daily life. This deep connection does not exist in NA where fans are much more transient, ie.fleet around from one thing to another. The better weather is probably one of the reasons for that....more attractions. “Going to the ball game” is like a day out at the races, or the zoo. The way clubs can dominate a persons life here again does not exist there. And this is why NA teams move “home” from one location to another, it’s acceptable, the locals will just find another attraction to go see (if they haven't already). In contrast, Liverpool FC announce tomorrow they are upping sticks and moving 300 miles away from Anfield, there would be World War III. 

What ive read is backed up by experiences. Brother in Texas couldn’t get over the constant commotion in the stands at a baseball game..compared it to a picnic environment. My sister in law from Texas once made a comment about a Premier League game being shown in a sports bar there, stating the expats from the UK were “singing from a different place” than fans from there. There is a depth in fan emotion here that isn’t the case there. 

And all this explains why a team like Toronto can magic up 8k or 9k fans from nothing, something that couldn’t happen here. Because it’s transient there, an attraction, it’s a day out. There isn’t the depth of emotion, that takes years to build up. It’s often mentioned on here that fans in NA arrive late to their seats, or often go walkabout during games. Precisely. They are not engrossed in the game to anywhere near the same extent as here. The sideshow stuff like beer tents is part and parcel of the experience there. Take out Toronto they will go find another thing to do. 

I don’t watch MLS (mainly as it’s a retirement home for players who were once good...Henry, Zlatan, Beckham etc), but I did hear about a new club Cincinnati (I think it’s them) having 30 odd thousand straight away, and appear weekly. In one hand it’s impressive, but similar to Toronto, there isn’t the same emotional depth, hence they can appear so quickly.

 

Edited by DC77
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29 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I really cant see what the Red Devils bring to Super League.

They certainly don't bring big crowds and certainly not locally produced players.

Newcastle and London even though not in Super League bring a lot more juniors through than the Red Devils and for a club that's been going for over 100 years that's very poor

SO just have a little look through the super league and have look at players who have come through the ranks at Salford. So to say they certainly don't bring through players is a little harsh. heres a very quick list:

Niall Evalds, Stefan Ratchford, Jordan Turner, Mark Sneyd, Theo Fages, Josh Wood, Jake Bibby. plus many more currently plying their trade in the championship. Also lets not forget that the former owner abolished the Academy from the club when it was just starting to bear fruit, this is now coming back through the development Academy and already a portion of those players have been promoted to the reserves squad this season. 

Also probably created one of the biggest upsets in getting to the Grand Final last year!

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10 hours ago, meast said:

Huddersfield lost more than a generation, it's 60 years since we were anything like successful, and had to build back up from almost scratch.

For 20 years, we hadn't been anywhere near the top flight, we struggled to just keep going for a lot of those years, never mind be a half decent top flight club,  there's no comparison really with any other established SL club, they were all more or less established top flight clubs for the majority of the last 50 years.

What success have they had in attracting the younger generation 

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12 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

Wow. So aggressive, and so many assumptions. 

Salford RL's crowds have been generally in decline pretty much all the time I've been watching rugby league - since the mid-1970s.

At present, they have maybe 2,500-3,000 diehards, who will go along whether they're good, bad or indifferent. Now the sugar daddy has lost interest, those attendances won't sustain a Super League team.

You don't think Salford RL might have lost even a few fans to Salford City FC, whose crowds have grown from circa 50 to circa 2,500 since the Man U old boys took over? I'd hazard a few 'floating' Salford sports fans - the sort the rugby league club need to attract to increase their crowds - have been lured to Salford City, perhaps merely by promotion after promotion. People prefer success to stagnation. Not to mention subsidised entry. It's only a tenner to watch fourth tier football at Salford City. How much is at Salford RL this season?

Either as a neutral, or supporting the team I used to follow, I went to The Willows many times over the years. I've been once to the AJ Bell, and that was enough. Because it's a pain to get to and away from (especially for evening games), the atmosphere is poor, one can't stand on the side of the ground (not for the match I went to) and Salford (last season's blip apart) aren't particularly competitive in Super League.

I emailed Salford a few weeks ago with a query about the season ahead. They couldn't muster even the courtesy of a reply. Ninety per cent of the other clubs I contacted responded (several via their CEOs).

Next time I'm over that way, looking for some sporting entertainment, I'll watch either Swinton RL or Salford City or the T20 at Old Trafford. You reap what you sow.

Sugar Daddy (Koukash) lost interest and left 2 seasons ago and the crowds have actually increased since he left.

Salford generally spend within their means as they do not have a benefactor.

you say you went to the AJB once, when was that out of interest? you say it was a pain to get to but since the new bridge has opened the access to the stadium has improved drastically. plenty of free parking only a 10/ 15 min walk away. you say you cant stand along the sidelines yet of the teams in SL there are very few where you can stand at along the sides, Sts, Hull, Hudds, Wigan, leeds pretty much all modern stadia with the exception of Warrington. 

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20 minutes ago, DC77 said:

Correct.

Books have been written about the difference in fan culture between here and North America. I quoted a paragraph a few months back. They all say the same thing; here teams are deeply entrenched in their local communities that they represent, this does not exist there. The passage I quoted stated the connection fans feel to their team here is almost “spiritual”. How your team does affects your own daily life. This deep connection does not exist in NA where fans are much more transient, ie.fleet around from one thing to another. The better weather is probably one of the reasons for that....more attractions. “Going to the ball game” is like a day out at the races, or the zoo. The way clubs can dominate a persons life here again does not exist there. And this is why NA teams move “home” from one location to another, it’s acceptable, the locals will just find another attraction to go see (if they haven't already). In contrast, Liverpool FC announce tomorrow they are upping sticks and moving 300 miles away from Anfield, there would be World War III. 

What ive read is backed up by experiences. Brother in Texas couldn’t get over the constant commotion in the stands at a baseball game..compared it to a picnic environment. My sister in law from Texas once made a comment about a Premier League game being shown in a sports bar there, stating the expats from the UK were “singing from a different place” than fans from there. There is a depth in fan emotion here that isn’t the case there. 

And all this explains why a team like Toronto can magic up 8k or 9k fans from nothing, something that couldn’t happen here. Because it’s transient there, an attraction, it’s a day out. There isn’t the depth of emotion, that takes years to build up. It’s often mentioned on here that fans in NA arrive late to their seats, or often go walkabout during games. Precisely. They are not engrossed in the game to anywhere near the same extent as here. The sideshow stuff like beer tents is part and parcel of the experience there. Take out Toronto they will go find another thing to do. 

I don’t watch MLS (mainly as it’s a retirement home for players who were once good...Henry, Zlatan, Beckham etc), but I did hear about a new club Cincinnati (I think it’s them) having 30 odd thousand straight away, and appear weekly. In one hand it’s impressive, but similar to Toronto, there isn’t the same emotional depth, hence they can appear so quickly.

 

So then rugby league clubs have no chance of attracting a new audience then in England 

I find this whole argument hogwash 

You seem to have less confidence in the sport than Australians or Canadians do 

Rugby league is one of English sports best kept secrets 

I'm sure with the right people in.charge at the rfl and clubs things could change 

Even a poor sport like union has seen massive crowd growth 

Edited by aj1908
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16 minutes ago, To Be Confirmed said:

Sugar Daddy (Koukash) lost interest and left 2 seasons ago and the crowds have actually increased since he left.

Salford generally spend within their means as they do not have a benefactor.

you say you went to the AJB once, when was that out of interest? you say it was a pain to get to but since the new bridge has opened the access to the stadium has improved drastically. plenty of free parking only a 10/ 15 min walk away. you say you cant stand along the sidelines yet of the teams in SL there are very few where you can stand at along the sides, Sts, Hull, Hudds, Wigan, leeds pretty much all modern stadia with the exception of Warrington. 

2016 I went. I stood on the side at Headingley a couple of weeks ago.

Maybe I'll give the AJB another go. Wasn't aware of a new bridge.

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1 hour ago, Hopping Mad said:

Wow. So aggressive, and so many assumptions. 

Salford RL's crowds have been generally in decline pretty much all the time I've been watching rugby league - since the mid-1970s.

At present, they have maybe 2,500-3,000 diehards, who will go along whether they're good, bad or indifferent. Now the sugar daddy has lost interest, those attendances won't sustain a Super League team.

You don't think Salford RL might have lost even a few fans to Salford City FC, whose crowds have grown from circa 50 to circa 2,500 since the Man U old boys took over? I'd hazard a few 'floating' Salford sports fans - the sort the rugby league club need to attract to increase their crowds - have been lured to Salford City, perhaps merely by promotion after promotion. People prefer success to stagnation. Not to mention subsidised entry. It's only a tenner to watch fourth tier football at Salford City. How much is at Salford RL this season?

Either as a neutral, or supporting the team I used to follow, I went to The Willows many times over the years. I've been once to the AJ Bell, and that was enough. Because it's a pain to get to and away from (especially for evening games), the atmosphere is poor, one can't stand on the side of the ground (not for the match I went to) and Salford (last season's blip apart) aren't particularly competitive in Super League.

I emailed Salford a few weeks ago with a query about the season ahead. They couldn't muster even the courtesy of a reply. Ninety per cent of the other clubs I contacted responded (several via their CEOs).

Next time I'm over that way, looking for some sporting entertainment, I'll watch either Swinton RL or Salford City or the T20 at Old Trafford. You reap what you sow.

I have posted previously over some of the points that you have made and I will repeat once again that the AJ Bell  Stadium  Company has listened to previous complaints and there has been a marked improvement in getting in and leaving the ground and my family come to each match some from Salford others from Cheshire and we can get to the ground easily, park up, have 10 minutes walk and get into our excellent seats.

The atmosphere is not good?How can you say that if you have only been once?

One cannot stand on one side, that goes back to the old days when the clubs were told what type of seating standing they needed to get a licence, Salford made the decision to do something about it, a couple of other clubs didn’t and got away with it but we might not have standing on one side but at least the away fans get a good seat, excellent view and can watch the game in comfort, unlike some grounds where the away supporters are treated like irritants.

The crowds have increased over the last two seasons and are up again this season as well so let’s see how it goes from here.

I no longer find it amazing that people who have hardly ever been to the AJ Bell can put themselves forwards as experts on what is required and furthermore have no idea what efforts the club are making on and off the field to take the club forward etc.

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40 minutes ago, Hopping Mad said:

2016 I went. I stood on the side at Headingley a couple of weeks ago.

Maybe I'll give the AJB another go. Wasn't aware of a new bridge.

I'd give it a go. I travel up from London for games and due to the combination of how much I enjoyed last season and how easy I now find it to get to the stadium I've got a season ticket this year. Bus from Manchester to the Trafford centre takes less than half an hour (X50) and the walk over now takes about 15/20 minutes if you use the gap in the fence under the motorway bridge (not hard to spot as everyone uses it). The walk is less if you park up closer to the bridge.

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