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Rugby league receives £16 million loan lifeline (Merged threads)

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3 hours ago, POR said:

unfortunately after devolution  sports and community funding in wales was taken over by the Welsh Assembly. so neither  club qualify for this handout

I somehow don’t think either of the Welsh clubs will get a penny of the Welsh Government.

 

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So, according to the British government, the Wolfpack are definitely not an English team, but are a Canadian one. So let's not hear any more of that particular argument from the nay-sayers.

For the Wolfpack's perspective on this see:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-britain-excludes-toronto-wolfpack-from-28-million-emergency-loan-to/

Edited by TIWIT

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6 hours ago, TIWIT said:

So, according to the British government, the Wolfpack are definitely not an English team, but are a Canadian one. So let's not hear any more of that particular argument from the nay-sayers.

For the Wolfpack's perspective on this see:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-britain-excludes-toronto-wolfpack-from-28-million-emergency-loan-to/

That is a misleading article written with no apparent input from the club and does not claim to be the Wolfpack perspective. This is what they have actually said and it's supportive of the RFL: https://www.torontowolfpack.com/bob-hunter-statement-uk-government-loan/

The Wolfpack are a UK business registered at Companies House, so are eligible for the general UK government support: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680 They probably have a Canadian business registered as well for tax and operational purposes.

Whether they qualify to receive the loan money will depend on their status as a RFL/SL club, not sure what that is. Either way, I'm not aware they have expressed any particular financial concerns, although I understand they have furloughed players like everyone else.

Edited by Whippet13
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1 hour ago, Whippet13 said:

That is a misleading article written with no apparent input from the club and does not claim to be the Wolfpack perspective. This is what they have actually said and it's supportive of the RFL: https://www.torontowolfpack.com/bob-hunter-statement-uk-government-loan/

The Wolfpack are a UK business registered at Companies House, so are eligible for the general UK government support: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680 They probably have a Canadian business registered as well for tax and operational purposes.

Whether they qualify to receive the loan money will depend on their status as a RFL/SL club, not sure what that is. Either way, I'm not aware they have expressed any particular financial concerns, although I understand they have furloughed players like everyone else.

Good post. 

The RL bailout seems to be about protecting social and physical assets in England - the Wolfpack have hardly any so it's not surprising they don't qualify. 

UK employment is protected by other schemes such as furlough, and if their players have UK-based employment contracts they will be eligible. 

And as you say, the operational business  - gameday and merch - is Canadian, so some support for that may be available there. 

BUT... if SL does resume play behind closed doors, will any Canadian govt support be enough to make the Wolfpack sustainable? 

English SL clubs will be getting a chunk of the bailout to cover for absent crowds, in return for keeping their community schemes going. 

Wolfpack will be losing - back of fag packet calculation - at least £2 million in gameday revenue which I doubt the Canadian govt will make up. Some travel and hotel costs will be reduced, and players may also take a pay cut as they won't have to do the transatlantic travel, but that won't likely make the difference up either. 

In the end, David Argyle will have to put his hand in his pocket even further this year to keep things afloat. Like many other chairmen at the moment, he might say he's reluctant to do that if relegation is on the table. 

Who will blink first? 

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13 hours ago, Robthegasman said:

I somehow don’t think either of the Welsh clubs will get a penny of the Welsh Government.

 

Couldn't agree more. The Cru are, apparently, not in too bad a position as the players are on pay for play and not contract payments, but like everyone else we can't go on indefinitely.

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57 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Good post. 

The RL bailout seems to be about protecting social and physical assets in England - the Wolfpack have hardly any so it's not surprising they don't qualify. 

UK employment is protected by other schemes such as furlough, and if their players have UK-based employment contracts they will be eligible. 

And as you say, the operational business  - gameday and merch - is Canadian, so some support for that may be available there. 

BUT... if SL does resume play behind closed doors, will any Canadian govt support be enough to make the Wolfpack sustainable? 

English SL clubs will be getting a chunk of the bailout to cover for absent crowds, in return for keeping their community schemes going. 

Wolfpack will be losing - back of fag packet calculation - at least £2 million in gameday revenue which I doubt the Canadian govt will make up. Some travel and hotel costs will be reduced, and players may also take a pay cut as they won't have to do the transatlantic travel, but that won't likely make the difference up either. 

In the end, David Argyle will have to put his hand in his pocket even further this year to keep things afloat. Like many other chairmen at the moment, he might say he's reluctant to do that if relegation is on the table. 

Who will blink first? 

True Toby FEV CEO announced 

"During the past few weeks our Club focus has been on two successful applications, one for the small business grant and the other application to HMRC for the job retention scheme. These positive applications will ensure the players and staff at Featherstone Rovers will receive their usual salaries, so when we do return our club is prepared and ready to go to continue its great work across the local community. 

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3 hours ago, Toby Chopra said:

Good post. 

The RL bailout seems to be about protecting social and physical assets in England - the Wolfpack have hardly any so it's not surprising they don't qualify. 

UK employment is protected by other schemes such as furlough, and if their players have UK-based employment contracts they will be eligible. 

And as you say, the operational business  - gameday and merch - is Canadian, so some support for that may be available there. 

BUT... if SL does resume play behind closed doors, will any Canadian govt support be enough to make the Wolfpack sustainable? 

English SL clubs will be getting a chunk of the bailout to cover for absent crowds, in return for keeping their community schemes going. 

Wolfpack will be losing - back of fag packet calculation - at least £2 million in gameday revenue which I doubt the Canadian govt will make up. Some travel and hotel costs will be reduced, and players may also take a pay cut as they won't have to do the transatlantic travel, but that won't likely make the difference up either. 

In the end, David Argyle will have to put his hand in his pocket even further this year to keep things afloat. Like many other chairmen at the moment, he might say he's reluctant to do that if relegation is on the table. 

Who will blink first? 

Well Argyle / Toronto have looked to sign Watkins in amongst this, so I think that in itself is a sign of their commitment 

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Please don't worry about us, I'm sure we will be fine. Providing of course we still have a league to play in when this is all over. ?

Seriously, we probably have the lowest overheads of any semi pro club.The players only get paid when they play, and we only pay rent for the ground on match days. All of our staff, apart from players, are unpaid volunteers. Playing behind closed doors would be a challenge, but even then I would be hopeful that we can cope.

I think this loan is great news and I'm not envious at all, there are plenty of clubs out there who have been around far longer than we have and really are focal points for their community. Not only do you deserve this money, you've earned it.

Stay safe everyone, hopefully we can all get through this and come back stronger.

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12 minutes ago, fearnowt said:

Please don't worry about us, I'm sure we will be fine. Providing of course we still have a league to play in when this is all over. ?

Seriously, we probably have the lowest overheads of any semi pro club.The players only get paid when they play, and we only pay rent for the ground on match days. All of our staff, apart from players, are unpaid volunteers. Playing behind closed doors would be a challenge, but even then I would be hopeful that we can cope.

I think this loan is great news and I'm not envious at all, there are plenty of clubs out there who have been around far longer than we have and really are focal points for their community. Not only do you deserve this money, you've earned it.

Stay safe everyone, hopefully we can all get through this and come back stronger.

Hope you get through it ?

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13 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

The Wolfpack are a UK business registered at Companies House, so are eligible for the general UK government support: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680 They probably have a Canadian business registered as well for tax and operational purposes.

 

The English company is/was an entity to facilitate some Brian Noble stuff over here. It had £200 in the bank at last accounts and Noble has since resigned leaving Vickers as sole director. Nothing to do with the main business and the Wolfpack pay no business rates here so would not be eligible 

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3 hours ago, fearnowt said:

Please don't worry about us, I'm sure we will be fine. Providing of course we still have a league to play in when this is all over. ?

Seriously, we probably have the lowest overheads of any semi pro club.The players only get paid when they play, and we only pay rent for the ground on match days. All of our staff, apart from players, are unpaid volunteers. Playing behind closed doors would be a challenge, but even then I would be hopeful that we can cope.

I think this loan is great news and I'm not envious at all, there are plenty of clubs out there who have been around far longer than we have and really are focal points for their community. Not only do you deserve this money, you've earned it.

Stay safe everyone, hopefully we can all get through this and come back stronger.

I believe that another club Coventry only get paid when they play,something I don’t see an issue with myself.

But someone questioned the legality of it with living wage etc.

So my question is how do clubs get round that and just pay players when they play?

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3 hours ago, Marty Funkhouser said:

The English company is/was an entity to facilitate some Brian Noble stuff over here. It had £200 in the bank at last accounts and Noble has since resigned leaving Vickers as sole director. Nothing to do with the main business and the Wolfpack pay no business rates here so would not be eligible 

Thus they are not an English company/team but a Canadian one who happens to employ mostly Brits and mostly works in the UK. But they are CANADIAN. That was my point.

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52 minutes ago, Robthegasman said:

I believe that another club Coventry only get paid when they play,something I don’t see an issue with myself.

But someone questioned the legality of it with living wage etc.

So my question is how do clubs get round that and just pay players when they play?

It either a second or part time job to those lads. Not that many full time players in Championship and none that I know of in League 1.

Plenty better off earning 10 - 15k as a second job than full time on 15 - 20k.

Top part time players could earn 25k+ as second job in 80s, much more than the "first" job paid. 

Many lower ranked players got their 1st full time contracts when SL started and quite a few didn't want one, some still don't.

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Does anyone think we will get full transparency on the distribution of this loan?

Will we be told:

How much team A got and why

How much team B got and why

Why did team A get more than team B

 

This could be interesting reading,but could also satisfy some of the cynics on here.

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2 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

Does anyone think we will get full transparency on the distribution of this loan?

Will we be told:

How much team A got and why

How much team B got and why

Why did team A get more than team B

 

This could be interesting reading,but could also satisfy some of the cynics on here.

I doubt it as I would be surprised if securing aid from it didn't come with non-disclosure conditions. If the RFL did publish it then all it would achieve would be to cause ill feeling amongst clubs and fans (due to perceived unfairness). It is likely IMO that the largest amounts will go to the biggest clubs due to their larger fixed overheads and a lot of fans would be unhappy should they find out that that was the case. Fans will speculate anyway but published evidence of the funds distributed would only increase resentment at a time when the sport needs to be pulling in the same direction.

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23 minutes ago, gittinsfan said:

Does anyone think we will get full transparency on the distribution of this loan?

Will we be told:

How much team A got and why

How much team B got and why

Why did team A get more than team B

 

This could be interesting reading,but could also satisfy some of the cynics on here.

Should do if it is coming out of public coffers.

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41 minutes ago, wiganermike said:

I doubt it as I would be surprised if securing aid from it didn't come with non-disclosure conditions. If the RFL did publish it then all it would achieve would be to cause ill feeling amongst clubs and fans (due to perceived unfairness). It is likely IMO that the largest amounts will go to the biggest clubs due to their larger fixed overheads and a lot of fans would be unhappy should they find out that that was the case. Fans will speculate anyway but published evidence of the funds distributed would only increase resentment at a time when the sport needs to be pulling in the same direction.

Published evidence could decrease resentment if the reasoning for each grant is explained.Imagine all the false news and rumours that will appear on here and in the press if this is done in secret.

If everything is done fairly then producing evidence of this can only be beneficial.Theories of any wrongdoing will only appear because of lack of true information.

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On 04/05/2020 at 09:55, gittinsfan said:

Does anyone think we will get full transparency on the distribution of this loan?

Will we be told:

How much team A got and why

How much team B got and why

Why did team A get more than team B

 

This could be interesting reading,but could also satisfy some of the cynics on here.

Well apparently Trinity will not be applying for any of the 'loan'. 

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3 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Well apparently Trinity will not be applying for any of the 'loan'. 

That's interesting, why wouldn't they? 

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8 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

That's interesting, why wouldn't they? 

I guess with a circa £3m loan already to buy the ground back they dont want additional debt on top of that when there is so much unknown ahead of us all.  

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16 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

I guess with a circa £3m loan already to buy the ground back they dont want additional debt on top of that when there is so much unknown ahead of us all.  

But on another thread dboy claims that (according to Carter) Wakefield only have £3k of debt and including that £3m would be being 'silly'...…..

Edited by Les Tonks Sidestep
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3 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

But on another thread dboy claims that (according to Carter) Wakefield only have £3k of debt and including that £3m would be being 'silly'...…..

I guess mortgage type loans don't usually count against you when it comes to credit, but it is a significant figure to service for a club like Trinity. Regardless it doesn't alter the intention not to apply for the government loan. 

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7 minutes ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

I guess mortgage type loans don't usually count against you when it comes to credit, but it is a significant figure to service for a club like Trinity. Regardless it doesn't alter the intention not to apply for the government loan. 

I'd guess the 'service' of any existing mortgage would be taken into account (especially when everything you own now, and in the future until paid off, is secured against it) if applying for any additional loan/credit (and I know it has been for at least one other club). Certainly the one time I applied for a loan my mortgage payments were included in my outgoings to assess whether I could afford the repayments.

Edited by Les Tonks Sidestep

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15 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I'd guess the 'service' of any existing mortgage would be taken into account (especially when everything you own now, and in the future until paid off, is secured against it) if applying for any additional loan/credit (and I know it has been for at least one other club). Certainly the one time I applied for a loan my mortgage payments were included in my outgoings to assess whether I could afford the repayments.

Which is why I suggested that Trinity are not looking for more outgoings, especially when there are reduced incomings and no certainty on what the future holds short term. 

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2 hours ago, PREPOSTEROUS said:

Which is why I suggested that Trinity are not looking for more outgoings, especially when there are reduced incomings and no certainty on what the future holds short term. 

How will they survive then if the league resumes without crowds? That's got to be close to a million in lost revenue this year for a club like Wakefield. They can't make all that back with wage and stadium staff cuts. 

Carter doesn't have the money to put in himself so I hope they don't go down the road of cutting reserves, youth, foundation activities etc, which is the exact opposite of what the govt wants, hence the bailout. 

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