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Chris Taylor

Michael Carter / Wakefield

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8 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

Its not a definition but based on my knowledge of construction.  I'm not sure they get all the money from it either as a big portion of income comes from the Training Centre under the new stand.  That was part of the deal  for the Council.

Both Hull clubs are struggling as are most.

 

 

Ok, its one word out of a 17 line post that has little to do with the point of my post or what I was replying and is not something that is important to me and not something I'm going to debate. Sometimes you cant even compliment other clubs on here about them doing a good job without someone taking umbrage. 

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11 hours ago, Wholly Trinity said:

What have other clubs done that Cas & Wakey have not done?

(apart from, by luck, being in the right place at the right time/having a local soccer team/supportive local authority/sugar daddy?)

What advantage do you think Cas & Wakey have gained by not having a new/redeveloped stadium?

Who should replace Cas & Wakey in the top flight?

 

So just because clubs like Saints and Warrington have got some rich backers, have invested in a strong academies, and play out of a modern stadium, they should be penalised for being lucky. If you won the lottery next week by this logic you shouldn’t be allowed to buy a nice big house ,car etc.

The advantage Cas and Wakey have had by not developing their stadium is akin to a year on year salary cap breach, since other clubs reduced investment on the pitch to ensure that their off field facilities were modern and fit for purpose. As was required at the time under the minimum standards criteria, Widnes, Leigh even Hull KR have improved their ground.
 

As an example take Oldham, they were told in no uncertain terms that the Watersheddings was not fit for super league, they sold their ground and were in the process of getting a new council funded ground. They then got relegated (due to them diverting money from the on field side to the off field) and the whole ground project become unviable. The irony is the Watersheddings in the 1990’s was a better Ground than Bell Vue and Weldon Road are now.
 

Who should replace them how about Halifax, Widnes, Leigh any club that plays out of a ground that recognises that has basic hygiene facilities for the entire population are a necessary, not some sort of 21st century namby pamby luxury  because the world’s gone soft.

Edited by Bostik Bailey
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5 hours ago, Bostik Bailey said:

So just because clubs like Saints and Warrington have got some rich backers, have invested in a strong academies, and play out of a modern stadium, they should be penalised for being lucky. If you won the lottery next week by this logic you shouldn’t be allowed to buy a nice big house ,car etc.

The advantage Cas and Wakey have had by not developing their stadium is akin to a year on year salary cap breach, since other clubs reduced investment on the pitch to ensure that their off field facilities were modern and fit for purpose. 

I say this as no fan of Wakefield but, when you look at the situation objecitively, you have to acknowledge that Wakefield have been well and truly shafted. By the same token, you also have to acknowledge that there is a degree of fortune, along with the hard work, that has gone towards the grounds at Warrington and St Helens. Had neither of those stadiums been completed by around 2012-ish, they wouldn't exist in their current form. That's not to say neither club would have some sort of new ground, but they would have found themselves in a similar situation to the one Wakefield and Castleford find themselves in. 

The HJ and TWS exist because Tesco sought land to built a hypermarket in those towns. There really isn't a lot more to it than that. Tesco wanted permission for a sizable development, the local authority put planning conditions in place and one of those was a stadium. 

The period around 2012 is important because that's the point at which Tesco realised that the hypermarket business model was a busted flush. The recession changed shopping habits, led to the rise of Aldi and Lidl, the demise of the weekly "big shop" and those factors combined to make those mega-supermarket developments unviable. Tesco even abandoned several very similar developments.

So then you have Wakefield and Castleford. Supermarket developers weren't interested in those areas anyway, but even less so after that point. So it leaves the clubs either looking for other developments to piggy-back off, or relying on the local authority. Neither club sits on land that is desirable for housing, so that is out. 

Castleford have tried relying on big-box retail, but we all know what has happened with retail. Wakefield did actually find a development to piggy-back off, but a loophole in the planning condition and a council that isn't doing an awful lot to enforce the condition has left them high and dry. 

So the answer to the question "why don't Wakefield and Castleford do what St Helens and Warrington did?" is "they have". But what they haven't had that the latter two have had is a good element of fortune - fortune that the right developers rolled into town at the right time. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays
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14 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The period around 2012 is important because that's the point at which Tesco realised that the hypermarket business model was a busted flush. The recession changed shopping habits, led to the rise of Aldi and Lidl, the demise of the weekly "big shop" and those factors combines to make those mega-supermarket developments unviable. Tesco even abandoned several very similar developments.

Interestingly in a post Covid world, with social distancing, number limits in stores and encouragement from both governments and health officials to make fewer trips to shop the big is beautiful model may be back in favour again. If that were to happen, which clubs would be in a position to benefit, Wakefield is a pretty big place, could they finally get some luck?

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19 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Interestingly in a post Covid world, with social distancing, number limits in stores and encouragement from both governments and health officials to make fewer trips to shop the big is beautiful model may be back in favour again. If that were to happen, which clubs would be in a position to benefit, Wakefield is a pretty big place, could they finally get some luck?

That's not the way I see it. COVID restrictions aren't going to last forever and what we have had over the last few months is a hell of a lot of people realising that getting their groceries delivered is actually pretty sweet. That's the growth area, along with the discount grocery sector. 

I don't think the Wakefield district is exactly under-served by supermarkets either. I'm not sure what the situation in Warrington was, but I seem to recall that Tesco's motivation in St Helens was to get out of a restrictive and unsuitable town-centre building. 

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56 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I say this as no fan of Wakefield but, when you look at the situation objecitively, you have to acknowledge that Wakefield have been well and truly shafted. By the same token, you also have to acknowledge that there is a degree of fortune, along with the hard work, that has gone towards the grounds at Warrington and St Helens. Had neither of those stadiums been completed by around 2012-ish, they wouldn't exist in their current form. That's not to say neither club would have some sort of new ground, but they would have found themselves in a similar situation to the one Wakefield and Castleford find themselves in. 

The HJ and TWS exist because Tesco sought land to built a hypermarket in those towns. There really isn't a lot more to it than that. Tesco wanted permission for a sizable development, the local authority put planning conditions in place and one of those was a stadium. 

The period around 2012 is important because that's the point at which Tesco realised that the hypermarket business model was a busted flush. The recession changed shopping habits, led to the rise of Aldi and Lidl, the demise of the weekly "big shop" and those factors combines to make those mega-supermarket developments unviable. Tesco even abandoned several very similar developments.

So then you have Wakefield and Castleford. Supermarket developers weren't interested in those areas anyway, but even less so after that point. So it leaves the clubs either looking for other developments to piggy-back off, or relying on the local authority. Neither club sits on land that is desirable for housing, so that is out. 

Castleford have tried relying on big-box retail, but we all know what has happened with retail. Wakefield did actually find a development to piggy-back off, but a loophole in the planning condition and a council that isn't doing an awful lot to enforce the condition has left them high and dry. 

So the answer to the question is "why don't Wakefield and Castleford do what St Helens and Warrington did?" is "they have". But what they haven't had that the latter two have had is a good element of fortune - fortune that the right developers rolled into town at the right time. 

Cas have had interest in their ground for housing. In fact I think they reached outline agreement with Ben Bailey homes just before the credit crunch which kyboshed that plan. I think the problem was the money they’d get for the land was going to be used to pay off the clubs debts to Jack Fulton’s family and it wouldn’t leave much for any new ground

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6 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

St Helen's put plenty of money in to building their stadium and Wire have since going in.

It's not 'luck' or 'fortune' it's skill and investment.

The fans, obviously, have little influence so for them it is luck, but the clubs themselves are masters of their own destiny and it cant be dismissed as fortune

I think the reality is somewhere between the two. 

I agree it is silly to dismiss the difference between clubs as lucky vs unlucky. 

Salford had that perfect combination of a new ground and a very rich backer. They showed that it isn't easy to become a strong club. 

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think the reality is somewhere between the two. 

I agree it is silly to dismiss the difference between clubs as lucky vs unlucky. 

Salford had that perfect combination of a new ground and a very rich backer. They showed that it isn't easy to become a strong club. 

I did acknowledge that there was hard work involved in both developments - "you also have to acknowledge that there is a degree of fortune, along with the hard work, that has gone towards the grounds at Warrington and St Helens".

But I would stress that there is still an element of fortune involved in having the right developers rolling into town at the right time. I'm not sure what "skill and investment" is involved from Eammon McMannus in Tesco deciding that their existing St Helens store wasn't fit for purpose. 

Wakefield and Castleford both have grounds to be critiqued when it comes to their facilities but they have undoubtedly been dealt some very questionable hands along the way. 

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10 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Sts spent money on building the ground.

Its also the skill to get it through. Wakefield and Cas both have had opportunities they havent been able to get over the line. 

There is also skill and investment in making these things a success.

Had the Stanley plan come to fruition for Wakefield it would still need a lot of work to become a success. I'm not sure an identikit stadium, on an industrial estate would have massively improved Wakefields fortunes. 

As I've said further up, both clubs have a problem even with new stadia in that you need to give people a reason to travel there. The two options which would have maybe given that Thornes for Wakefield which is pretty much city centre and Glasshoughton for Cas which has easy access and loads of stuff around it, arent happening.

I never argued that St Helens didn't put their own funding into the project. My point was that, without external investment, St Helens' funding probably wouldn't have stretched an awful lot further than Wakefield's or Castleford's would have.

I've also not suggested that St Helens haven't worked hard to make their stadium a success, but that doesn't negate the fact that they weren't exactly "masters of their own destiny" when it came to putting bricks in the ground. They relied heavily on external investment and planning conditions which, because of the way the retail landscape changed following the 2008 recession, was fortunately timed. 

The fact that St Helens also worked hard to make their stadiums a success also doesn't prove that Wakefield or Castleford couldn't have done the same in similar cirumstances. The site that the TWS stands on was disused industrial land and the stadium catalysed a not insignificant level regeneration of that area - we'll probably never get to know what impact a stadium would have had at Stanley. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays

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I find it funny that Widnes, Leigh, Halifax, St Helens, Warrington, Wigan, Hull FC and HKR, Salford are the only lucky clubs  and Cas and Wakey are just unlucky. 

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15 minutes ago, Bostik Bailey said:

I find it funny that Widnes, Leigh, Halifax, St Helens, Warrington, Wigan, Hull FC and HKR, Salford are the only lucky clubs  and Cas and Wakey are just unlucky. 

None of the other clubs have had councils actively working against redevelopment plans.

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On 28/06/2020 at 11:09, Lowdesert said:

HKR do not have a decent stadium at all.  Barring the new north stand and conference centre, the existing 'best stand' is slowly falling into disrepair, the east stand is the same and south end is an open terrace which, bizarrely, has conifer trees planted as a windbreak.  

 

Oh please. The seated West stand and terraced East stand were both only built 32 years ago - and the latter’s extension only a decade ago. They’re not the Halliwell Jones etc., they were built on the cheap without cantilevers, but both have been maintained inside and out and offer perfectly fine places to watch a game. 
 

With a new North stand with exec boxes, additional hospitality space in the building adjoining that and indoor bars and another restaurant in the West, Rovers have a perfectly decent match day experience for 10,500 fans of all budgets. I wouldn’t use the South terrace either, but then we rarely do and on the odd occasion it’s used (once a year if that), people know what they’re getting! 
 

Compare it to what we had 15 years ago, and you can see the difference between Rovers ‘steady and affordable’ approach and clever use of grants etc. and the inability of other clubs who were in SuperLeague from the start to make incremental progress like that, whilst always looking for the silver bullet Saints and Wire found (well done them) but most cannot. 

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The Kershaw story is in the papers today, and I do wonder why he's so special. 

Does everyone who has a skill, be it rugby, or as a singer say, deserve to earn as much as they think because of it?

Plenty of people may lose their jobs because of the pandemic, why are the stories painted that he is more important?

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1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Oh please. The seated West stand and terraced East stand were both only built 32 years ago - and the latter’s extension only a decade ago. They’re not the Halliwell Jones etc., they were built on the cheap without cantilevers, but both have been maintained inside and out and offer perfectly fine places to watch a game. 
 

With a new North stand with exec boxes, additional hospitality space in the building adjoining that and indoor bars and another restaurant in the West, Rovers have a perfectly decent match day experience for 10,500 fans of all budgets. I wouldn’t use the South terrace either, but then we rarely do and on the odd occasion it’s used (once a year if that), people know what they’re getting! 
 

Compare it to what we had 15 years ago, and you can see the difference between Rovers ‘steady and affordable’ approach and clever use of grants etc. and the inability of other clubs who were in SuperLeague from the start to make incremental progress like that, whilst always looking for the silver bullet Saints and Wire found (well done them) but most cannot

I agreed with the rest of Damien’s piece other than the incomes which I am not sure of exactly but know that Hull training are in control of the North facilities during the day.  

I will PM you mate as I am sure I know you.

 

Edited by Lowdesert

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57 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

The Kershaw story is in the papers today, and I do wonder why he's so special. 

I'm sure he isn't but beleaguered journalists have to constantly create new click bait.  Remember a couple of weeks ago, the "Race" to sign George King ?

I hope he holds onto those Hermes parcels a bit better than the ball he's losing in that mirror.co.uk photo.

Edited by Wollo Wollo Wayoo

This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me.
 
 
Wakefield Trinity RLFC
2012 - 2014 "The wasted years"

2013, 2014 & 2015 Official Magic Weekend "Whipping Boys"

2017 - The year the dream disappeared under Grix's left foot.

2018 - The FinniChezz Bromance 

2019 - The Return of the Prodigal Son

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

I'm sure he isn't but beleaguered journalists have to constantly create new click bait.  Remember a couple of weeks ago, the "Race" to sign George King ?

I hope he holds onto those Hermes parcels a bit better than the ball he's losing in that mirror.co.uk photo.

King seems a better use of money than Kershaw. Can't imagine his agent would have been a big issue in him moving to KR. Has he got most of his men there now? ?

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2 hours ago, M j M said:

None of the other clubs have had councils actively working against redevelopment plans.

Fev must have been immensely lucky then.

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Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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1 hour ago, RigbyLuger said:

The Kershaw story is in the papers today, and I do wonder why he's so special. 

Does everyone who has a skill, be it rugby, or as a singer say, deserve to earn as much as they think because of it?

Plenty of people may lose their jobs because of the pandemic, why are the stories painted that he is more important?

He may not be a particularly special talent but his specific circumstances mean that he can't sign for another RL club without Wakefield receiving c£41k in compensation, which it is claimed they have said that they would insist upon. This sounds like the old retain and transfer system returning, but only for young players.


Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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On 28/06/2020 at 10:51, sentoffagain2 said:

      Is that Hull F.C who have never won the right to be in Super League but did it by merging with Gateshead and are not always the best side in the City of Hull.

Hull won the right to be in Super League on the field by finishing top of Division One in 1997.


Old Faithful we never lose at Wembley

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1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

He may not be a particularly special talent but his specific circumstances mean that he can't sign for another RL club without Wakefield receiving c£41k in compensation, which it is claimed they have said that they would insist upon. This sounds like the old retain and transfer system returning, but only for young players.

Of course they would. Quite rightly.

You know that rule was not created by Wakefield and applies to every club in the comp?

I imagine Mr Carter will be quite sympathetic to allowing him to get another club (i.e. by reducing the compensation they would insist upon), but I doubt he would announce that publicly - that would be crazy.

Plus, I guess where he would end up would be a factor - if it happened to be another SL club (doubtful), then the full compensation would be due.

Edited by dboy
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23 hours ago, dboy said:

Of course they would. Quite rightly.

You know that rule was not created by Wakefield and applies to every club in the comp?

I imagine Mr Carter will be quite sympathetic to allowing him to get another club (i.e. by reducing the compensation they would insist upon), but I doubt he would announce that publicly - that would be crazy.

Plus, I guess where he would end up would be a factor - if it happened to be another SL club (doubtful), then the full compensation would be due.

I understand that, which is why he might have to switch to RU in order to play. The alternative of a £16K contract isn't so attractive is it?


Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change.

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2 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

I understand that, which is why he might have to switch to RU in order to play. The alternative of a £16K contract isn't so attractive is it?

If he's worth what he thinks he is, someone will take him.

If not, they won't.

It's a fair market and he's entitled to take his chance.

The market may judge him to be a better Hermes driver than he is (may become), a winger.

BTW - You'd have to pay me a lot more than £16k for me to even watch RU, let alone play it.

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Young Kershaw won’t be signing for Wakefield according to Mike Carter because in his own words Carter has “given up”.

Seems strange for a Chief Executive to be openly talking about negotiations with a player on a fans forum. That said Carter loves to make himself the centre of attention while playing the hard man with a 21 year old kid.

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7 minutes ago, OMEGA said:

Young Kershaw won’t be signing for Wakefield according to Mike Carter because in his own words Carter has “given up”.

Seems strange for a Chief Executive to be openly talking about negotiations with a player on a fans forum. That said Carter loves to make himself the centre of attention while playing the hard man with a 21 year old kid.

Carter actually uses an Internet Fans Forum?

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