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Just now, Gooleboy said:

If that is the case, why aren't players from Leeds, Hull and the other bigger places with RL Clubs already household names?

Because one is among those those towns which don't rate with the public at large and the other might be too, and their teams play in a league full of other teams from such towns.  Times have changed since the days "When Ellery Was King" as Tony Collins called the podcast of his first interview with Sean McGuire; multinational competitions like the Champions League, Europa League and Heineken Cup have become standard fare and that's undoubtedly raised the bar re what's needed to make a good impression on that public.

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14 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

So we're dividing up a marketing and PR function to replace for 12 SL clubs, all with their own audiences and priority markets, as well as the central marketing of SL, RFL and their respective events? Either this is going to be a big function, or it's going to be spread very thinly. 

The clubs have no issue finding the funds for another NRL dropout as they become available - isn't the issue simply one of not having the right priorities. 

If you're doing marketing and advertising right, it isn't a cost centre. 

We paid Elstone £400,000 as a sport per year. He was your metaphorical 30-something Australian forward who was knackered. That could and should have been utilised elsewhere. Marketing and PR the obvious area. The game’s profile, general perception and standing is non-existent, as highlighted by people in the game and out of the game. 

Clubs aren’t doing marketing right. Some are doing next to nothing. You’ve said it yourself. We have the assets. We don’t use them at all. 

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Rugby League is just a frustrating sport to support.

From top to the bottom its run by the wrong kind of people, who are generally running their little corner for selfish reasons. 

The game needs a Root and Branch review, followed by action. There are many ways the sport could go, many ways we could both improve the product and improve the match day experience. But watching SL now is less entertaining and less of a spectacle than it was 10 years ago. There is no drive in the sport, not from the clubs, not from the SL and not from the RFL.

The SL is littered with clubs that do nothing for the sport, that are a drain on its finances and make it more difficult to market to sponsors and broadcasters. 

Close the Shop, Set targets for playing in SL based on Minimum support levels, Full grade 1 academy as a minimum. Good facilities. you dont make the grade, you dont play SL. You are a Champ Club and you have worked to attain the above minimum standards. Welcome to the top table, dont worry about relegation, Work to build your club. Dont panic buy a squad, build on what you have and grow.  Take the long term view. 

 

This Year

Leigh Out, Toulouse IN

Warnings For

Huddersfield ( crowds )

Wakefield ( crowds, Facilities )

Salford ( Crowds, Facilities, Academy )

 

If a club in the Championship attained the required level of support, with the right facilities and a commitment to run a grade 1 academy. Goodbye Salford Hello new team.

Rinse and repeat until you have 12 clubs that meet the criteria, no matter how long it takes. Stop messing about and worrying about upsetting Bob from a Village in Yorkshire/Lancashire who's grandad used to tell him stories of ( insert team name here ) being good once upon a time. 

Or do something completely different, But get a strategy and a focus and push it. no constant moving of goalposts and pandering to individual clubs. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

We paid Elstone £400,000 as a sport per year. He was your metaphorical 30-something Australian forward who was knackered. That could and should have been utilised elsewhere. Marketing and PR the obvious area. The game’s profile, general perception and standing is non-existent, as highlighted by people in the game and out of the game. 

Clubs aren’t doing marketing right. Some are doing next to nothing. You’ve said it yourself. We have the assets. We don’t use them at all. 

£400k doesn't touch the sides of what you're proposing when you consider the manpower and media and creative budgets needed for a long term strategy. Then you have the issue that some clubs just won't go with this. Warrington will argue that they were doing fine pre-pandemic and have bigger ambitions than a 1/13th share of a centralised team will give them, whilst people like Hetherington, a firm believer in clubs doing their own thing and with his priorities very much focused on the corporate market, isn't going to back it either.

What other businesses expect someone else to do their marketing for them?

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1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Why don't the clubs just employ more capable people? 

Different clubs will have different target audiences and marketing priorities - they should own their own promotion. 

The clubs are the primary point of sale for the sport. We don't (or shouldn't) need a "guru" running it centrally because a) we should be holding the clubs to better standards on that front and b) getting a "guru" is pointless if you don't know the audience you want to attract and the objective from your marketing. 

Asking someone to come in and "run the CC Final" will get you a lot of short term advertising for the CC Final, but it will achieve nothing in the longer term - the CC Finals problems aren't problems you can advertise your way out of. 

 

I agree , the top tier clubs should be sorting all that themselves , however the lower tiers IMO would benefit from a more centralised approach , essentially having a group of ' marketeers ' working at each club for say one home game a month , sharing ideas used at other clubs , this is something I suggested a decade ago when we had licencing 

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1 hour ago, tonyvikinggee said:

Rugby League is just a frustrating sport to support.

From top to the bottom its run by the wrong kind of people, who are generally running their little corner for selfish reasons. 

The game needs a Root and Branch review, followed by action. There are many ways the sport could go, many ways we could both improve the product and improve the match day experience. But watching SL now is less entertaining and less of a spectacle than it was 10 years ago. There is no drive in the sport, not from the clubs, not from the SL and not from the RFL.

The SL is littered with clubs that do nothing for the sport, that are a drain on its finances and make it more difficult to market to sponsors and broadcasters. 

Close the Shop, Set targets for playing in SL based on Minimum support levels, Full grade 1 academy as a minimum. Good facilities. you dont make the grade, you dont play SL. You are a Champ Club and you have worked to attain the above minimum standards. Welcome to the top table, dont worry about relegation, Work to build your club. Dont panic buy a squad, build on what you have and grow.  Take the long term view. 

 

This Year

Leigh Out, Toulouse IN

Warnings For

Huddersfield ( crowds )

Wakefield ( crowds, Facilities )

Salford ( Crowds, Facilities, Academy )

 

If a club in the Championship attained the required level of support, with the right facilities and a commitment to run a grade 1 academy. Goodbye Salford Hello new team.

Rinse and repeat until you have 12 clubs that meet the criteria, no matter how long it takes. Stop messing about and worrying about upsetting Bob from a Village in Yorkshire/Lancashire who's grandad used to tell him stories of ( insert team name here ) being good once upon a time. 

Or do something completely different, But get a strategy and a focus and push it. no constant moving of goalposts and pandering to individual clubs. 

 

A ' commitment ' to run an academy ? 😂

These Lowe tier clubs you want to reach SL standard ? , How do you suggest they achieve it ? 

Minimum support levels ? 

Do you include location in this closed shop ? 

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1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

£400k doesn't touch the sides of what you're proposing when you consider the manpower and media and creative budgets needed for a long term strategy. Then you have the issue that some clubs just won't go with this. Warrington will argue that they were doing fine pre-pandemic and have bigger ambitions than a 1/13th share of a centralised team will give them, whilst people like Hetherington, a firm believer in clubs doing their own thing and with his priorities very much focused on the corporate market, isn't going to back it either.

What other businesses expect someone else to do their marketing for them?

Correct , the lower tier clubs though probably need something like that 

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20 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Get rid of Super League. 

What would you propose instead, Smudger?

I suppose you would prefer to see a return to the old county leagues? With Leeds Rhinos running in 114-0 victories against the likes of Hunslet and Dewsbury. Out of shape part timers who have been working on a roof all day, training two nights a week... Taking on professionals and ex NRL internationals. 

👍🏽

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Part of the problem is……the world isn’t as small as it used to be.

In 1921, Bradford playing at Halifax would have been quite a journey for most people and sort of exotic. England playing people from New Zealand (wherever that was) would have been mind blowing….actual foreigners from the empire? Incredible. Harold Blenkinsop signing on for Wigan for £500  cash would have been incredible…..’owww much?.?

I’m not being sarcastic or taking the pee there, that was the world once upon a time. I don’t really think RL has moved enough with it - which may be endearing or tragic depending on your point of view. Sadly I can’t help thinking RL has missed the boat.

 

 

 

 

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One constant about the world is change. You can't keep doing the same thing or you risk getting left behind.

When SL arrived in the UK in the 90's, it was a shot in the arm for the game. Since then, the game has done nothing new, thinking if it worked decades ago, it works now. Society is in a constant state of flux so observing and adapting is essential. The set up needs to adapt but the SL clubs aren't. Toronto should have been nurtured and Toulouse needs to be invited to SL. I'd love to see less SL games and a geniune international calendar. 

When only three countries were strong in international RL, they needed each other. The emergence of Pacific nations (not achieved by what Australia did Gus, but through emigration) means there are now several genuine top nations. Australia and NZ don't need their third partner like they did. By England putting all its eggs in the Aust/NZ/Eng basket ignored Europe. Change has marginalised England. 

How will RL in England react to this new international situation? A credible and innovative NH international programme. I'd like to see the NH divided into groups of four nations, playing each other once within their group (just three games each). The Group A winner is the NH champ, the loser drops to group B. Depending on how many groups are formed (depending on funds as usual), the other group(s) have one side promoted and one relegated. Each team has something to play for and a pathway to rise up the ranks if good enough. It could expand as success and finances allow.  

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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1 hour ago, RayCee said:

One constant about the world is change. You can't keep doing the same thing or you risk getting left behind.

When SL arrived in the UK in the 90's, it was a shot in the arm for the game. Since then, the game has done nothing new, thinking if it worked decades ago, it works now. Society is in a constant state of flux so observing and adapting is essential. The set up needs to adapt but the SL clubs aren't. Toronto should have been nurtured and Toulouse needs to be invited to SL. I'd love to see less SL games and a geniune international calendar. 

When only three countries were strong in international RL, they needed each other. The emergence of Pacific nations (not achieved by what Australia did Gus, but through emigration) means there are now several genuine top nations. Australia and NZ don't need their third partner like they did. By England putting all its eggs in the Aust/NZ/Eng basket ignored Europe. Change has marginalised England. 

How will RL in England react to this new international situation? A credible and innovative NH international programme. I'd like to see the NH divided into groups of four nations, playing each other once within their group (just three games each). The Group A winner is the NH champ, the loser drops to group B. Depending on how many groups are formed (depending on funds as usual), the other group(s) have one side promoted and one relegated. Each team has something to play for and a pathway to rise up the ranks if good enough. It could expand as success and finances allow.  

The NH program will absolutely be crucial moving forward. What you've described re P&R is pretty well what the revamped Rugby League European Championship was meant to look like beginning in 2020, however due to covid it did not take place last year. At the bottom of this wikipedia article you can see the teams and how they were allocated in tiers A-D. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_European_Championship#2020-present:_Relegation 

There's only one problem with the championship currently, England seem to believe they are above participating (sounds eerily similar to another major nation doesn't it). In fact, England hasn't participated in the European Championships in any form since 2004. While an optimist would hope they'd look to support elite-level international competitions in their own backyard moving forward, I daresay we're more likely to see England v Combined Nations again before we'll see England take their place in the European Championships. Would love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong though.

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25 minutes ago, UTK said:

The NH program will absolutely be crucial moving forward. What you've described re P&R is pretty well what the revamped Rugby League European Championship was meant to look like beginning in 2020, however due to covid it did not take place last year. At the bottom of this wikipedia article you can see the teams and how they were allocated in tiers A-D. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_League_European_Championship#2020-present:_Relegation 

There's only one problem with the championship currently, England seem to believe they are above participating (sounds eerily similar to another major nation doesn't it). In fact, England hasn't participated in the European Championships in any form since 2004. While an optimist would hope they'd look to support elite-level international competitions in their own backyard moving forward, I daresay we're more likely to see England v Combined Nations again before we'll see England take their place in the European Championships. Would love nothing more than for them to prove me wrong though.

I didn't much notice the 2020 comp but yes, it is close but as you say without England. I could have saved myself some writing and posted the link. 🙄

I'd like to think England's snubbing of Europe in favour of Aus/NZ was money driven rather than it being beneath them. probably a bit of both. Whatever the motive, it's time England had a reality check and accept the SH may not be as welcoming as before. 

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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Stop treating France like Australia has treated England. I’d start by looking at a genuine annual European program with junior tournaments as well at 16s, 18s & 20s.

Also look at how the club game can accelerate the strengthening of France, Wales and other European nations. Offer incentives to get more French players in to Super League academies & first team squads.

It won’t happen overnight but England really  need another strong nation or two behind them in the Northern Hemisphere. Australia unfortunately has control over NZ and we’ll most likely see NRL clubs try to withhold lots of Pacific players as well.

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9 hours ago, tonyvikinggee said:

Rugby League is just a frustrating sport to support.

From top to the bottom its run by the wrong kind of people, who are generally running their little corner for selfish reasons. 

The game needs a Root and Branch review, followed by action. There are many ways the sport could go, many ways we could both improve the product and improve the match day experience. But watching SL now is less entertaining and less of a spectacle than it was 10 years ago. There is no drive in the sport, not from the clubs, not from the SL and not from the RFL.

The SL is littered with clubs that do nothing for the sport, that are a drain on its finances and make it more difficult to market to sponsors and broadcasters. 

Close the Shop, Set targets for playing in SL based on Minimum support levels, Full grade 1 academy as a minimum. Good facilities. you dont make the grade, you dont play SL. You are a Champ Club and you have worked to attain the above minimum standards. Welcome to the top table, dont worry about relegation, Work to build your club. Dont panic buy a squad, build on what you have and grow.  Take the long term view. 

 

This Year

Leigh Out, Toulouse IN

Warnings For

Huddersfield ( crowds )

Wakefield ( crowds, Facilities )

Salford ( Crowds, Facilities, Academy )

 

If a club in the Championship attained the required level of support, with the right facilities and a commitment to run a grade 1 academy. Goodbye Salford Hello new team.

Rinse and repeat until you have 12 clubs that meet the criteria, no matter how long it takes. Stop messing about and worrying about upsetting Bob from a Village in Yorkshire/Lancashire who's grandad used to tell him stories of ( insert team name here ) being good once upon a time. 

Or do something completely different, But get a strategy and a focus and push it. no constant moving of goalposts and pandering to individual clubs. 

 

So Castleford,s ground is now ok but Wakefield,s isn't?

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As for 2022 if any ‘plans’ had been made with Aus or NZ cancel them. I believe NZ were due to tour the UK, so instead of planning that only to have NZ potentially pull out last minute - scrap it early and plan something not involving Australia or NZ.

I’d like to see a Euro cup, played in tiers, for example:

A - England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy

B - Greece, Russia, Spain, Serbia

C - Regional tournaments with a promotion playoff.

Invite some Pacific Islands or North American teams to tour as well if possible.
 

Jamaica in particular could possibly become a pretty strong opponent with all their heritage players available.

You can bet there will be a Pacific Cup played in Aus so something to match that would be good. Australia has played their cards and England should be looking at opportunities to get some local opposition up to scratch or they really risk becoming isolated. England will probably put 50+ on all those bar a full strength France or heritage Ireland & Scotland but big deal. Some compromises need to be made, England haven’t played weaker opposition regularly for a while, that mentality needs to change.

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12 hours ago, RayCee said:

One constant about the world is change. You can't keep doing the same thing or you risk getting left behind.

When SL arrived in the UK in the 90's, it was a shot in the arm for the game. Since then, the game has done nothing new, thinking if it worked decades ago, it works now. Society is in a constant state of flux so observing and adapting is essential. The set up needs to adapt but the SL clubs aren't. Toronto should have been nurtured and Toulouse needs to be invited to SL. I'd love to see less SL games and a geniune international calendar. 

When only three countries were strong in international RL, they needed each other. The emergence of Pacific nations (not achieved by what Australia did Gus, but through emigration) means there are now several genuine top nations. Australia and NZ don't need their third partner like they did. By England putting all its eggs in the Aust/NZ/Eng basket ignored Europe. Change has marginalised England. 

How will RL in England react to this new international situation? A credible and innovative NH international programme. I'd like to see the NH divided into groups of four nations, playing each other once within their group (just three games each). The Group A winner is the NH champ, the loser drops to group B. Depending on how many groups are formed (depending on funds as usual), the other group(s) have one side promoted and one relegated. Each team has something to play for and a pathway to rise up the ranks if good enough. It could expand as success and finances allow.  

Lot of this is on the money. Any 4 nations tournament would have to have England (for TV purposes) and I would invite Jamaica in. 3 games and a final at the top level. Plus a relegation playoff for the bottom team except in years where Jamaica need to go and qualify for World cups. 

France and England won´t get relegated so at least there is certainty for FTA tv company. Was looking at figures for BARB and think we could sell this to Channel 5 and easily do more than their current Friday or Saturday night programming. 

Edited by ShropshireBull
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2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Lot of this is on the money. Any 4 nations tournament would have to have England (for TV purposes) and I would invite Jamaica in. 3 games and a final at the top level. Plus a relegation playoff for the bottom team except in years where Jamaica need to go and qualify for World cups. 

France and England won´t get relegated so at least there is certainty for FTA tv company. Was looking at figures for BARB and think we could sell this to Channel 5 and easily do more than their current Friday or Saturday night programming. 

I think Jamaica could become quite a strong international side over the next few years. Let them play regular games against European nations as well as the Americas cup. This could create a lot of interest in Jamaica and in the Jamaican communities in the UK. The RFL could support this by developing the junior game in these communities which would potentially provide more players who are eligible for Jamaica in the future. The same could be done with Nigeria also. 

Adding those two nations to the four home nations plus France gives the NH a viable competition to build on without having to rely on the NRL for players

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4 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think Jamaica could become quite a strong international side over the next few years. Let them play regular games against European nations as well as the Americas cup. This could create a lot of interest in Jamaica and in the Jamaican communities in the UK. The RFL could support this by developing the junior game in these communities which would potentially provide more players who are eligible for Jamaica in the future. The same could be done with Nigeria also. 

Adding those two nations to the four home nations plus France gives the NH a viable competition to build on without having to rely on the NRL for players

We can either pack it up or we get serious about building our own baby. What we need is long term lock in. 

If Jam knew that they were getting three games end of season (one vs Eng, France and Wales/Ireland plus the chance of a final, you can get some proper sponsors to carry the one year they need to qualify for World Cup.  

Likewise Ireland. Go and play USA every year mid season in states.  Build a brand for our Northern Hemisphere sides. 

England as well. Mid season game vs Celtic Nations then in a Northern Hemisphere 4 nations.  Thats 3 guaranteed home games a year.  5 on FTA tv and again, you can build a brand.  If USA and Canada do get a semi pro tournament going they should be rewarded with France and Eng going over for games.  

Sponsors and tv partners know what they are getting and RFL can give themselves plenty of time to market the games. 

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One of the things that frustrates me the most about the sport is the constant change. We tinker around with pointless format and rule changes, often reversing them very quickly when we realise they are ridiculous. We somehow seem to think we just haven't stumbled on the perfect structure and that once we find it we will take off.

Then, when we do something right, we pat ourselves on the back and do nothing to capitalise on it. An example would be the RLWC 2013 semi final at Wembley. Big crowd, lots of locals, brilliant match. And we don't play another international in London for 2 years. I've written a blogpost recently on this very subject. 

Our priorities are all over the place and until we get those in order and end our infighting, I struggle to see how we grow.

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1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

We can either pack it up or we get serious about building our own baby. What we need is long term lock in. 

If Jam knew that they were getting three games end of season (one vs Eng, France and Wales/Ireland plus the chance of a final, you can get some proper sponsors to carry the one year they need to qualify for World Cup.  

Likewise Ireland. Go and play USA every year mid season in states.  Build a brand for our Northern Hemisphere sides. 

England as well. Mid season game vs Celtic Nations then in a Northern Hemisphere 4 nations.  Thats 3 guaranteed home games a year.  5 on FTA tv and again, you can build a brand.  If USA and Canada do get a semi pro tournament going they should be rewarded with France and Eng going over for games.  

Sponsors and tv partners know what they are getting and RFL can give themselves plenty of time to market the games. 

An ideal situation would be a combination of NH tournaments and tournaments involving SH sides plus mid season test matches during a 4 year cycle.

Year 1 - NH tournament.

Home Nations and France plus Jamaica and Nigeria.

Year 2 - Nations Cup.  

8 teams - 6 Oceania Cup teams plus top 2 NH teams. (Can still be played without Aus and NZ. Just draft in next 2 NH teams if Aus and NZ don't play).

WC qualifiers can also be held for all the other nations.

Year 3 - NH tournament as in year 1.

Year 4 - WC.

Mid season tests each year

Eng vs France

Ireland vs USA

Scotland vs Wales

Jamaica vs Nigeria.

Mix and match these teams to play more than one test if needed.

 

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3 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

An ideal situation would be a combination of NH tournaments and tournaments involving SH sides plus mid season test matches during a 4 year cycle.

Year 1 - NH tournament.

Home Nations and France plus Jamaica and Nigeria.

Year 2 - Nations Cup.  

8 teams - 6 Oceania Cup teams plus top 2 NH teams. (Can still be played without Aus and NZ. Just draft in next 2 NH teams if Aus and NZ don't play).

WC qualifiers can also be held for all the other nations.

Year 3 - NH tournament as in year 1.

Year 4 - WC.

Mid season tests each year

Eng vs France

Ireland vs USA

Scotland vs Wales

Jamaica vs Nigeria.

Mix and match these teams to play more than one test if needed.

 

Nah no mix of southern hemisphere tournaments.  If you want to get a fta channel on board we need an annual tournament that you can build up.  6 year deal so thats two world cup cycles.  Four nations year 1,2,3 (year three switch out Jamaica). World cup year 4. 

Mid season:

Usa vs Ireland 

Canada vs France  (Quebec)

Wales vs whoever aint in 4 nations

England vs Celtic Nations 

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A plan? Would be nice wouldn't it. We're not far off where clubs will be looking to retain players for next season and could have huge funding cuts. Championship and League 1 have been excellent this year whereas Superleague is a complete mess. Due to mismanagement at the very top of the game the rest will suffer. No plan other than self interest. 

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On 27/07/2021 at 12:57, jim_57 said:

As for 2022 if any ‘plans’ had been made with Aus or NZ cancel them. I believe NZ were due to tour the UK, so instead of planning that only to have NZ potentially pull out last minute - scrap it early and plan something not involving Australia or NZ.

I’d like to see a Euro cup, played in tiers, for example:

A - England, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy

B - Greece, Russia, Spain, Serbia

C - Regional tournaments with a promotion playoff.

Invite some Pacific Islands or North American teams to tour as well if possible.
 

Jamaica in particular could possibly become a pretty strong opponent with all their heritage players available.

You can bet there will be a Pacific Cup played in Aus so something to match that would be good. Australia has played their cards and England should be looking at opportunities to get some local opposition up to scratch or they really risk becoming isolated. England will probably put 50+ on all those bar a full strength France or heritage Ireland & Scotland but big deal. Some compromises need to be made, England haven’t played weaker opposition regularly for a while, that mentality needs to change.

Love this idea! I would definitely get Jamaica, USA and Canada involved in the tournament with at least England, Wales and France on the top table as it were. We wouldn't need to worry about NRL clubs releasing players for a tournament of that sense, if anything it would make it more competitive. 

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