Challenge Cup Final 2023 - Four Games

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, Jughead said:

No, it’s definitely moaning. I’ve seen plenty of the womens players celebrating that they’ll potentially get to play at the spiritual home of the Challenge Cup and where the England womens football team just created history. I haven’t seen one womens rugby league player say that they want a standalone event either off the back of this news or in any interview, unsurprisingly it’s just people on here who think this. 

 

The important point on this is what is the plan for the women's game to get to the next step. Playing at Wembley is far better than what we did for this year, and there is a fair argument that this will raise the profile even more, but will they get a share of the takings, which has a well-established formula on how it is split. 

Bundling together may be exciting for amateur women RL players, but their excitement won't grow the game commercially - there needs to be a plan for how to attract unique sponsors, crowds and revenue to drive growth in the women's game. 

I think this move is OK, I understand the criticisms etc. and I'd now move the Sundeck Cup out and relaunch like the old Northern Rail Trophy thing, with its own marquee final. I think the women's game at least has a natural fit as part of Cup Finals day, but I'm interested to know how it will become its own thing. 

Maybe there is a finals weekend in future? 

[Jughead]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

You must be livid that the women’s Grand Final is a standalone event.

Not at all. It’s childish to claim others are “livid”, too.

Again, three of the last four finals have failed to get crowds of above 2,000 and you could argue the only reason the 2021 final did is because it was at Headingley, the home of Leeds, who happened to play in the final. Hardly an elite venue for something we’re trying to turn elite and not exactly a great look commercially. 

[Damien]

For me the issue isn't the women's Challenge Cup final being at Wembley per se, it's a fact that this decision sums up the entire direction of the women's game. I can appreciate the lure of playing at Wembley makes the final a little different when it comes to this debate but this isn't an isolated decision. The bigger issue for me is that the RFL are taking the easy route of tagging the womens game along with the men. That may be the final, triple header semi finals, double headers at SL grounds etc.

While this is the easy approach it is the most restrictive and the route that will severely limit income streams and the growth of the women's game. The very target audiences should be different. The women's game should be a blank canvas free from the baggage that has blighted mens RL but the game is simply following the same path. At the moment it feels like the women's game is simply being used to fill the inadequacies of the men's game and sell more tickets for the main men's event and that is just wrong. Worse still it is showing, yet again, an abject failure to learn from other sports.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Damien

[RP London]

23 hours ago, daz39 said:

From the RFL/Womens game.

Good, I'm glad they are asking and listening. I hope it helps build the women's game I just don't see it. After what could be a huge world cup (certainly sounds like it) I just can't see how going back to being a curtain raiser can help.. I hope I am wrong. 

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, RP London said:

Good, I'm glad they are asking and listening. I hope it helps build the women's game I just don't see it. After what could be a huge world cup (certainly sounds like it) I just can't see how going back to being a curtain raiser can help.. I hope I am wrong. 

I can certainly see how it can help. The final is progressing from 3rd billing at the semis in Leeds to presumably 2nd billing at Wembley with the prestige and viewing figures that comes with that. 

But I do think the decision is also problematic, I think it is positioning women's RL as pre-match entertainment, and I also think it is an example of avoiding doing the graft to build up women's SL in its own right. Are they ever going to be brave enough to make it a standalone event in future? 

As was touched on by someone else, we were starting from scratch and could have setup the women's game however we saw fit - we've just set it up the same as the men's game. 

[yipyee]

On 12/08/2022 at 12:09, Dunbar said:

The Women's Challenge Cup Final should be its own stand alone game.

We can't even have the semis as stand alone games so no chance of that, (plus no one would go )

[gingerjon]

11 hours ago, Dave T said:

I can certainly see how it can help.

Can you?

Because I think there are basically have two options - standalone final or double header - and the RFL has just told us which one they've chosen.

[Tommygilf]

4 games seems a hell of a lot - pass outs must be essential. The 1895 cup seems especially superfluous now too as part of the day.

I can see the attraction of playing the women's cup final at Wembley, just as I can with the World Cup Final at OT. Women's RL is just not at the level commercially yet to make the leap other women's sports have; I will accept a lot of that is almost certainly poor management which is true of the sport across the board. Wembley will be fantastic for so many players, and the aspiration for the sport to have more parity between the sexes with marquee billing Wembley finals for the Women's game (as part of a weekend for example) has to start somewhere.

I do think there needs to be more thought, investment and time put into the women's game. It doesn't have as much of the baggage as the rest of RL, which should be a massive opportunity. It needs managing outside or at least alongside the mens game, not just as a tag on for existing CEOs etc.

All that said, I've some experience with lower division women's RL. If anything, playing a few double headers with the mens games has helped massively in increasing both awareness of the players and how seriously the sport is taken. It has broken down a lot of perceptions etc. There is undeniably value in that at the moment.

[Tommygilf]

8 hours ago, yipyee said:

We can't even have the semis as stand alone games so no chance of that, (plus no one would go )

A large reason the semis aren't standalone is because it is perceived to have better value broadcasting both games on the same day at a good venue than halving the budget and potentially losing the broadcast coverage of one of those games, with one or both of the games having to go to cheaper venues. A lot of the same reasons why the mens is a double header semi final now too.

Would be less of a problem if we had an in house match production team who could pick these games up and absorb the cost in their overall budget. Something I'm sure IMG will be looking at.

[Griff]

21 hours ago, Scubby said:

It's 2022 mate. I'm talking boys and girls here at aged 11. Y7 boys get to play at Wembley and girls don't

Easily solved. Scrap the Y7 boys game and tell the kids Scubby wouldn't let them play.

[RL Tragic]

As someone who runs a company, Before I stage any changes or promotions or incentives, I actively consult my fan base , Can somebody please ask Ralph to get his ###### in this message board and see what fans actually feel . The decisions that are coming out of the RFL are now beyond poor and frankly the leadership should hold their heads in shame at how badly they have managed the sport . Incredibly simple and low cost marketing decisions and a common sense approach to not repeating obvious mistakes , coupled with a grassroots up policy of grow the game  stronger in its heartland and gradually spread would be fairly obvious to most people on these message boards. New clubhouses for a mature teams would frankly make better financial sense that the wages we have expended on these clowns. 

[gingerjon]

39 minutes ago, Griff said:

Easily solved. Scrap the Y7 boys game and tell the kids Scubby wouldn't let them play.

Alternate years would seem to be a less destructive option.

[gingerjon]

49 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

4 games seems a hell of a lot - pass outs must be essential. The 1895 cup seems especially superfluous now too as part of the day.

I can see the attraction of playing the women's cup final at Wembley, just as I can with the World Cup Final at OT. Women's RL is just not at the level commercially yet to make the leap other women's sports have; I will accept a lot of that is almost certainly poor management which is true of the sport across the board. Wembley will be fantastic for so many players, and the aspiration for the sport to have more parity between the sexes with marquee billing Wembley finals for the Women's game (as part of a weekend for example) has to start somewhere.

I do think there needs to be more thought, investment and time put into the women's game. It doesn't have as much of the baggage as the rest of RL, which should be a massive opportunity. It needs managing outside or at least alongside the mens game, not just as a tag on for existing CEOs etc.

All that said, I've some experience with lower division women's RL. If anything, playing a few double headers with the mens games has helped massively in increasing both awareness of the players and how seriously the sport is taken. It has broken down a lot of perceptions etc. There is undeniably value in that at the moment.

Four games in a day speaks, yet again, to the ongoing failure to do anything to expand the fan base - a lot hinges on a World Cup that is being sold almost exclusively to existing fans to change that.

I've said all I'm going to say for now about bundling the women's and men's finals together. I think it's the wrong approach but it comes from the RFL obsession about adding value rather than increasing worth, and that's not going to change any time soon.

Lastly, having been to multi-game days at Wembley before, I'm not aware that a pass out system has ever been employed there. I'm doubtful there will be one in place for this finals day.

[Yakstorm]

Firstly, I'd love to see Women's Challenge Cup Final played as a standalone event at a premier stadium somewhere in the UK, with nationwide coverage on the BBC and a strong crowd behind it.

Unfortunately, as we all know however the RFL doesn't have the budgets, confidence or capabilities to make something like that happen, as such this progression from being the curtain-raiser for the Men's Semi Final Double Header to one of the key games at Wembley is still a significant step forward and can add a lot of value to the Wembley event as a whole if marketed right. 

I just hope the RFL, IMG, BBC and any other stakeholders actually put some renewed effort into promoting the Wembley Finals Day and selling it to the wider sporting public in London (rather than just club members).

Arguably an event at Wembley featuring some of the best men's and women's Rugby players at one ground, for one ticket, playing for a trophy which still holds a lot of value, should be one of the easier things to sell.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Can you?

Because I think there are basically have two options - standalone final or double header - and the RFL has just told us which one they've chosen.

It is better than the current setup. 

That shouldn't be the aim imho, but it is better. 

[Scubby]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Easily solved. Scrap the Y7 boys game and tell the kids Scubby wouldn't let them play.

Yep the RFL love going for easy solutions

[RigbyLuger]

Bar history, what's the reasoning for having the school match there now?

[Jughead]

The thing with the womens game being at Wembley is that unless the womens game experiences an unprecedented boom in interest and finances, having the womens final as a standalone event in the future is always going to be a downgrade from being at Wembley. 

The emails suggest a triple header, so presumably the kids game will be shunted to somewhere local. Even so, three games is a lot. I hope the Challenge Cup Final doesn’t become an early evening kick-off. That would scream ridiculous for public transport back to the north for those who use it. 

I think three is too many games. Nothing against the Sunbed Shield but it’s always been an odd bolt on and never really made much sense. A weekend of Challenge Cup Finals (mens, womens, wheelchair etc) is a consistent theme, adding on a lower league trophy doesn’t feel like it should be there. 

This was IMG’s first chance to be judged and while the addition of the womens game to the weekend is a nice touch, it still looks heavily RFL influenced with four games on the same day. 

[gingerjon]

6 hours ago, Jughead said:

The emails suggest a triple header, so presumably the kids game will be shunted to somewhere local. Even so, three games is a lot. I hope the Challenge Cup Final doesn’t become an early evening kick-off. That would scream ridiculous for public transport back to the north for those who use it. 

The men's final will surely have to have a c.3pm kick off so the 1895 Cup Final and the women's final will need to have a 12.30/1pm kick off and a 5.30pm(ish) kick off, with the way round TBD.

[Tommygilf]

6 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

Bar history, what's the reasoning for having the school match there now?

Prestige junior event surely has some value?

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The men's final will surely have to have a c.3pm kick off so the 1895 Cup Final and the women's final will need to have a 12.30/1pm kick off and a 5.30pm(ish) kick off, with the way round TBD.

I can see the Mens cup final being shunted to 5, so kick offs at 12 and 2.15 possible. Also a potentially a 11am start for the year 7s. How long do they play each way now?

[Leyther_Matt]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I can see the Mens cup final being shunted to 5, so kick offs at 12 and 2.15 possible. Also a potentially a 11am start for the year 7s. How long do they play each way now?

No chance the BBC would go along with the men’s final eating in to their Saturday evening schedule. Women at 12, men at 3, 1895 at 6. Not a clue how the kids will fit in to that. Either 10am or playing a portion at half time in each final (I joke, but it can’t be ruled out)

Edited August 14, 2022 by Leyther_Matt
Kick off times based on 2022 (it did feel a HUGE gap between games, but at least allowed on field presentations and celebrations)

[Jughead]

Mens final has kicked off late (3.30-4pm) in the past, hasn’t it? 

[gingerjon]

13 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Mens final has kicked off late (3.30-4pm) in the past, hasn’t it? 

Really not sure. It's (nearly) always 3pm, isn't it? Never later that I'm aware of but happy to be wrong if that's the case.

[gingerjon]

32 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I can see the Mens cup final being shunted to 5, so kick offs at 12 and 2.15 possible. Also a potentially a 11am start for the year 7s. How long do they play each way now?

No, I think @Leyther_Mattis right. If it is that order then we're not going to be on BBC 1 with it.