RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[JonM]

5 minutes ago, redjonn said:

With regard to street Buzz, to be honest their wasn't anything around my area regarding the women's euro's until the later games of England. Just the same with regard to RLWC and we are 15 mile from Leeds. 

Doncaster town centre was absolutely filled with RLWC branding - flags, posters etc. I didn't spend much time in Leigh, but the roundabout outside the ground (on a main road through the town) has a big RLWC display. Tees Valley region has been pushing the game at Middlesbrough hard on local social media, including paid advertising. I think at least some local councils have been doing their part to promote "their" games.

I think it's a combination of ticket pricing (and economic conditions that could not have been foreseen when the prices were set pre-pandemic), too many games in the same locations and a really poor ticketing website that places obstacles to the casual would-be spectator actually buying anything.

I wonder whether a lack of local sales support/ promotion is an issue. If Leigh RL and the local council had been able to sell tickets for their games directly, and keep a share of the revenue, would that have helped? If RLWC had a pop-up shop in Doncaster town centre on gameday, selling tickets, would that have helped?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, JonM said:

Doncaster town centre was absolutely filled with RLWC branding - flags, posters etc. I didn't spend much time in Leigh, but the roundabout outside the ground (on a main road through the town) has a big RLWC display. Tees Valley region has been pushing the game at Middlesbrough hard on local social media, including paid advertising. I think at least some local councils have been doing their part to promote "their" games.

I think it's a combination of ticket pricing (and economic conditions that could not have been foreseen when the prices were set pre-pandemic), too many games in the same locations and a really poor ticketing website that places obstacles to the casual would-be spectator actually buying anything.

I wonder whether a lack of local sales support/ promotion is an issue. If Leigh RL and the local council had been able to sell tickets for their games directly, and keep a share of the revenue, would that have helped? If RLWC had a pop-up shop in Doncaster town centre on gameday, selling tickets, would that have helped?

To be fair - leigh doesn't even turn out for its own games or England games played there - so not sure why there was an expectation of higher crowds.

In fact the obsession with using the ground, nice as it is, is frankly bizarre.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Leonard

[nadera78]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

One thing that continues to bother me about the Emirates semi is that you can buy a £110 ticket for a front row seat or a £70 ticket for the very back row. I wanted to buy tickets in the £70-85 range but wasn't prepared to risk getting a seat I hadn't chosen. At those prices, leaving it to the organisers to put you where they want is madness. I hope it doesn't put others off.

This is a bugbear of mine too. It is, frankly, astonishing that you can't pick your own seat, and I find it hard to believe that no-one involved in organising this event brought it up as an issue beforehand so it must have been a conscious choice on behalf of Dutton and co.

[JonM]

2 minutes ago, Leonard said:

To be fair - leigh doesn't even turn out for its own games or England games played there - so not sure why there was an expectation of higher crowds.

In fact the obsession with using the ground, nice as it is, is frankly bizarre.

It's a good ground, in a genuine rugby league town, and it's the right size for a game of this type. It's a short distance from St. Helens, Warrington, Wigan, WIdnes, Salford etc. It shouldn't be just the population of Leigh that is the target here.

The attendance for the game yesterday was higher than the Kiwis got at Warrington.

[Gomersall]

42 minutes ago, Damien said:

£85 for a front row seat is ridiculous. It is just ludicrous that you can't pick your seat at a tournament with these prices.

I just don’t get the logic of not being able to choose your seat. I blindly assumed they would allocate from the back of the lower section down. More fool me.

[redjonn]

4 minutes ago, JonM said:

Doncaster town centre was absolutely filled with RLWC branding - flags, posters etc. I didn't spend much time in Leigh, but the roundabout outside the ground (on a main road through the town) has a big RLWC display. Tees Valley region has been pushing the game at Middlesbrough hard on local social media, including paid advertising. I think at least some local councils have been doing their part to promote "their" games.

I think it's a combination of ticket pricing (and economic conditions that could not have been foreseen when the prices were set pre-pandemic), too many games in the same locations and a really poor ticketing website that places obstacles to the casual would-be spectator actually buying anything.

I wonder whether a lack of local sales support/ promotion is an issue. If Leigh RL and the local council had been able to sell tickets for their games directly, and keep a share of the revenue, would that have helped? If RLWC had a pop-up shop in Doncaster town centre on gameday, selling tickets, would that have helped?

Good to hear about the promotion stuff. Although I don't always notice what being shown in the towns or cities.  I guess down to promotional experts knowing what works and what the travel/people movement is for eye-balls.

I still wonder if selling is an aspect and how hard it has been sold. I agree with your implication that revenue sharing or pop's up would not be sufficient. 

[glossop saint]

39 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

All this talk of ticket prices is a bit of a red herring. It plays a part but I believe that's not the main reason for poor attendance figures. I'm just guessing,  but it's reasonable to suppose 90% of the tickets have been purchased by RL fans who know the game. You'll notice that poor attendances are really evident at games that are obvious mismatches, that's because RL fans are not mugs, they know the game and know what's worth going to. The general public wouldn't have a clue that say Samoa vs Greece would be one sided or even Australia vs Scotland. Why would people who know naff all about the sport know what's a mismatch and what's not? The answer is that the excitement of hosting this tournament has not percolated through beyond the confines of the already converted out to the great masses. 

I'm possibly not best placed to know what the street buzz is about RLWC because I live on the London/Essex border,  but there's no sign of the tournament going on round these parts. During the summer I saw almost daily fans from the women's euros visiting London. Outside of the Northern powerhouse area, the rest of the country is merrily carrying on in ignorance about the World Cup,  okay I'll rephrase that, not merrily at all, but angst ridden due to the economic and political chaos engulfing us!

The one sided games point is interesting. As with anything you won't get agreement but I think this is a negative of having 4 groups of 4 and with 'traditional' seeding (top 4 separate, next 4 separate and so on). The games I have got tickets to were games that I anticipated being good close games (as it is with the changes in squads and personnel over the last 2 years it isn't the case now) as 2 evenly matched teams is more interesting than a thrashing. I think you would get more closer games with the group arrangement of previous tournaments though that is probably a discussion for another thread.

[Gomersall]

50 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Every week we can tweet out video of Dom Young scoring a blinder we're on a winner, he's media gold dust. 

He talks well on camera too.

[glossop saint]

4 minutes ago, JonM said:

It's a good ground, in a genuine rugby league town, and it's the right size for a game of this type. It's a short distance from St. Helens, Warrington, Wigan, WIdnes, Salford etc. It shouldn't be just the population of Leigh that is the target here.

The attendance for the game yesterday was higher than the Kiwis got at Warrington.

In that case Leigh are also the target for games in St Helens, Warrington etc. There are a lot of games of varying quality and competitiveness in a small area. This is a problem when it comes to selling lots of tickets, some of which are more expensive than has been seen in this sport before.

[JonM]

Just now, glossop saint said:

In that case Leigh are also the target for games in St Helens, Warrington etc. There are a lot of games of varying quality and competitiveness in a small area. This is a problem when it comes to selling lots of tickets, some of which are more expensive than has been seen in this sport before.

Yep.

I think this problem is worse for places like Newcastle (4 games) and Doncaster (3 games) though, where you're relying on an event crowd rather than committed RL fans.

Saints/ Leigh/ Warrington/ Wigan/ Bolton (12 games in total I think) does at least have a pool of 100 000ish RL fans to go after - and there the issue, as you say, is that many people will have chosen to go to England v France at Bolton or Tonga v Wales at St. Helens today, rather than the game at Leigh.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Gomersall said:

I just don’t get the logic of not being able to choose your seat. I blindly assumed they would allocate from the back of the lower section down. More fool me.

It just seems laughable that you can pick your seat for an amateur youth theatre production with tickets for a tenner but can't for a premium event with tickets costing £85. Its standard fare these days for any event and there is no excuse.

[glossop saint]

1 minute ago, JonM said:

Yep.

I think this problem is worse for places like Newcastle (4 games) and Doncaster (3 games) though, where you're relying on an event crowd rather than committed RL fans.

Saints/ Leigh/ Warrington/ Wigan/ Bolton (12 games in total I think) does at least have a pool of 100 000ish RL fans to go after - and there the issue, as you say, is that many people will have chosen to go to England v France at Bolton or Tonga v Wales at St. Helens today, rather than the game at Leigh.

Of all the reasons that the WC will struggle with attendances this is the main one for me. There should have been a much bigger spread of games. It doesn't even include all of the heartlands let alone enough expansion areas.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

It just seems laughable that you can pick your seat for an amateur youth theatre production with tickets for a tenner but can't for a premium event with tickets costing £85. Its standard fare these days for any event and there is no excuse.

I assume they had some plan for optics - hence the Doncaster fans last night all seemed to be spread about a bit and not in the same rows.

[Damien]

10 minutes ago, glossop saint said:

In that case Leigh are also the target for games in St Helens, Warrington etc. There are a lot of games of varying quality and competitiveness in a small area. This is a problem when it comes to selling lots of tickets, some of which are more expensive than has been seen in this sport before.

Exactly. If money was a factor and I was prioritising North West games then I'd have probably gone for PNG v Tonga and England v France. That is a fair outlay in itself for a family, especially if they plan on then going to say a quarter final and maybe a final. Once you throw in several more games in the North West, of varying levels of attractiveness and mismatches, it becomes pretty easy to see why attendances seem to have a ceiling around 6k.

I very much doubt that any Football or RU World Cup has such a high proportion of fans going to 4, 5 or 6 matches, or would even expect that, certainly outside of their home team. 

[sweaty craiq]

27 minutes ago, Leonard said:

To be fair - leigh doesn't even turn out for its own games or England games played there - so not sure why there was an expectation of higher crowds.

In fact the obsession with using the ground, nice as it is, is frankly bizarre.

It’s never ending what a ding dong.

Purchasing tickets is a nightmare, you end up with about 20 in your basket to pick the 4 you want.

Tickets should be available from the hosts ticket office and online facility, they could then target their entire database and make it a must see event - as happened in 2013 when 10000 packed LSV for Tonga v Cooks bu granted with lower prices

Top end pricing is too high for a country that’s tightening it’s belt in uncertain times, with the exception of the final

[Damien]

4 minutes ago, Leonard said:

I assume they had some plan for optics - hence the Doncaster fans last night all seemed to be spread about a bit and not in the same rows.

It's not difficult to do that and still allow people to pick seats from a selection. It's absolutely no excuse.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

Yeah, although you expect they knew of an issue long before the tournament started and in that respect a change in strategy shouldn’t have needed to be ‘in tournament’ if there was to be one. We could and should still get 3 big crowds for the 2x semi and final and hopefully a 20k+ for Eng QF.

I had been really impressed with the World Cup pre tournament, especially Dutton. I now have some reservations on reality vs. the ‘talk’. Still, I’m willing to wait until the end of the tournament to form a full view on the approach.

The thing that frustrates me is they did have the early sales data, knew we were short and also that the demand was especially weak in the upper two price segments (which are either two high, or were given too much real estate). As a result they re-categorised pretty much all matches, re-pricing some sections downwards and moving advance purchasers in those sections into "better" ones. That required them going offline for 48 hours which you'd never do unless it was a critical issue, so clear they understood.

However, if you're going to do a big reset like that, go bigger: They just played with the margins. Couple of things on reflection:

1. It's about value per price banding, not availability per price banding (there have always been 'cheap' tickets available, its not about lack of supply at X price. I'll happily pay £50, £60 or even £70 to sit on the half way line. But I won't to sit past the 20m line, in the corner. Likewise someone may be happy to pay £35 to sit on the 30m line, but won't to sit behind the sticks. It's that level of detail they got wrong - creating price/value intersections for as many people as possible.

2. They missed the chance to aggressively tier pricing by quality of event - there's obviously a big difference between a match with 2 of the 'big 5' and a match with only one in. Probably A, B and C grade events. They have some price segmentation like that, but it's nowhere near aggressive enough in the C category. Nobody is paying £50 or more to watch NZ play Jamaica, unless you're throwing food in. 

3. I also think the lack of bundle offers was strange. We've missed opportunities to bundle by location, or to do things like offer discounts for multiples or perhaps 'group game ticket = discount for QF ticket' incentives to multi-buy. That's not an innovative idea, probably a default setting, so they've clearly actively decided to not do that which is mystifying. 

4. Regardless of price, they obviously haven't got the sales and marketing strategy right. There's always been 'stock' at low prices, so the issue is mainly the activation plans. Awareness has been good, but not been translated into action. 

It's all been interesting stuff to watch, but not much anyone can do now. On the pitch the tournament is delivering, and some of the other bigger past issues like media engagement have been smashed out of the park - the BBC involvement has been outstanding, and they've even got Fox Sports onside with the concept in Australia which on past tournaments' experience is a minor miracle. Step-by-step perhaps - onwards to 2025!

...and if England win after a packed Semi in London and a sold-out Final at Old Trafford, will anyone really give a s***?

[MattSantos]

2 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

 At those prices, leaving it to the organisers to put you where they want is madness. I hope it doesn't put others off.

It's a crazy and a completely incompetent decision. The NFL UK screwed people over with tickets this year, but the actual mechanics in Ticketmaster to select a seat at Tottenham was an absolute joy.

 

2 hours ago, Gomersall said:

My £85 ticket for the Emirates was on the front row. I contacted Jon Dutton via Twitter and a few days later Jason (I didn’t catch his surname) from RLWC ticketing rang me and moved me to a seat further back.

What a productive waste of time for someone so senior to be involved in this. 

[RL Tragic]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

It just seems laughable that you can pick your seat for an amateur youth theatre production with tickets for a tenner but can't for a premium event with tickets costing £85. Its standard fare these days for any event and there is no excuse.

It looks poor in tv as well , fill the TV facing stand before you sell another ticket else where in the ground . Then as far as a TV viewer is concerned it’s fairly full or chokka 

[WN83]

I'd love to hear Duttons take on why we can't select seats or why the website is a nightmare to use. Other than him giving some politicians answers around ticketing pricing, I never seem to have come across answers on just why the website is so appalling and why that ability to select a seat isn't there. The semi finals are the huge one for me in terms of selecting a seat. I wanted to sit on the bottom tier for Arsenal but I am not prepared to pay £70 to sit on the front row, so I've taken my chances on a £30 ticket in the top tier (£30 tickets up there are in blocks that aren't as steep as £55 and £70 tickets weirdly, so you're likely to get a better seat for less money). I want to go to the Elland Road semi but the £30 tickets have gone and again, I'm not prepared to go to nearly double that at £55 without being able to select a seat, so on my decisions alone, they've gone from a potential income of £125, down to £30. That also stands for the 2 lads going with me to the semis, so they could've had £375 from us for those 2 semi finals and will now probably get £90 and we'll watch the first on the tv. All on the basis that we cannot select seats and all whilst seats will sit empty for that first semi at least (and probably both). 

Edited October 24, 2022 by WN83

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

44 minutes ago, RL Tragic said:

It looks poor in tv as well , fill the TV facing stand before you sell another ticket else where in the ground . Then as far as a TV viewer is concerned it’s fairly full or chokka 

Yup. The software exists to do just this, even to sell alternate rows first so that it looks fuller than it is. We're just choosing not to do it for some reason. 

[faithfulbyname]

Just now, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yup. The software exists to do just this, even to sell alternate rows first so that it looks fuller than it is. We're just choosing not to do it for some reason. 

Cost?

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Just now, faithfulbyname said:

Cost?

No, our ticket partners already have it - the Challenge Cup Final did some of these things. We're just not deciding to pursue these "venue dressing" strategies in the World Cup, for reasons unknown.  

[RL Tragic]

3 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Yup. The software exists to do just this, even to sell alternate rows first so that it looks fuller than it is. We're just choosing not to do it for some reason. 

That would be a good one alternative rows . I love the stadiums CNN like York with the multicoloured seats so it’s not so obvious the crowd . 

[Chris22]

Another example of a fan trying to buy tickets but not being able to due to a poor ticket interface.

I dread to think of sales lost from fans who wanted to attend but gave up.