RLWC Attendance-O-Meter

[gingerjon]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

About 46 pages back there was a discussion where it was generally agreed that the IRL got their hosting fee up front. 

So yes, the hope is that the IRL has made money from this. They may not make as much as if we had hit all targets, but it looks like we have gone with up front fee payment after the Aussie World Cup missed its guaranteed returns. 

With the (un)spoken concern that this may mean that any actual shortfalls hit the RFL not the IRL.

[pahars]

Having had a thought about it and being a bit of a Devil’s advocate. I reckon the major grumps of the 2013 attendance thread and indeed most of the international attendance threads dating back 20 years on this forum would have been: 

Crazy discounting with people who fully intend to go waiting for a last minute bargain. 

Too low ticket prices to start with  for top quality events - particularly in London. 

Only part opening stadiums leading to a small time look for any event buyers looking in and people unable to buy the seats they want. 

Booking lots of football/union grounds leading to lots of ‘why isn’t the money going in to Rugby League?’ Comments. 

Now they have addressed all these ….it’s just when issues arrised relating to all of them they kept doubling down instead of being flexible. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

With the (un)spoken concern that this may mean that any actual shortfalls hit the RFL not the IRL.

Yes. I suppose it all depends on the structure of the commercials, plus the company structure too. 

I wouldnt be surprised if the IRL got their £Xm in fees up front, and maybe a profit share would have been in place for anything above and beyond. 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, pahars said:

Having had a thought about it and being a bit of a Devil’s advocate. I reckon the major grumps of the 2013 attendance thread and indeed most of the international attendance threads dating back 20 years on this forum would have been: 

Crazy discounting with people who fully intend to go waiting for a last minute bargain. 

Too low ticket prices to start with  for top quality events - particularly in London. 

Only part opening stadiums leading to a small time look for any event buyers looking in and people unable to buy the seats they want. 

Booking lots of football/union grounds leading to lots of ‘why isn’t the money going in to Rugby League?’ Comments. 

Now they have addressed all these ….it’s just when issues arrised relating to all of them they kept doubling down instead of being flexible. 

I'm not sure I'd agree that these were the major issues of the day but all absolutely will have been mentioned. 

Points 1 and 2 are the same thing. Discounting made the tickets cheap, nobody was ever asking for £150 tickets, or £70 for PNG v Cook Islands. 

Point 3 hasn't been a massive issue in this tournament, I think people have been happy you can buy where you choose. Not enough fans in is what makes it look worse. I've only seen suggestions of closing stands at mayev Coventry and Riverside. 

Point 4. I've never really seen complaints about using football grounds. Fans have been very happy to use Olympic Stadium, Wembley, Etihad, Elland Road, Old Trafford, St James - in fact these grounds return the biggest crowds. Anfield gets loaned at because of legroom really. 

So I think your summary of the situation is off tbh. 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes. I suppose it all depends on the structure of the commercials, plus the company structure too. 

I wouldnt be surprised if the IRL got their £Xm in fees up front, and maybe a profit share would have been in place for anything above and beyond. 

So the emphasis on money , has diminished the actual impact the tournament will have on the whole games growth ? 

Marvelous 

All it needed was 2013 revisited and improved , up the prices but fill the stadiums 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So the emphasis on money , has diminished the actual impact the tournament will have on the whole games growth ? 

Marvelous 

All it needed was 2013 revisited and improved , up the prices but fill the stadiums 

I'm not sure we can say that. We don't know what the IRL's fee is, but if they have made £10m from this it will be the biggest financial return ever from a WC. 

Not as successful as it could/should have been doesn't necessarily mean unsuccessful. We need to be careful on that point. 

 

On your last line, I broadly agree. There was plenty to improve on from 2013, but there was a great template of things that worked. 

[pahars]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure I'd agree that these were the major issues of the day but all absolutely will have been mentioned. 

Points 1 and 2 are the same thing. Discounting made the tickets cheap, nobody was ever asking for £150 tickets, or £70 for PNG v Cook Islands. 

Point 3 hasn't been a massive issue in this tournament, I think people have been happy you can buy where you choose. Not enough fans in is what makes it look worse. I've only seen suggestions of closing stands at mayev Coventry and Riverside. 

Point 4. I've never really seen complaints about using football grounds. Fans have been very happy to use Olympic Stadium, Wembley, Etihad, Elland Road, Old Trafford, St James - in fact these grounds return the biggest crowds. Anfield gets loaned at because of legroom really. 

So I think your summary of the situation is off tbh. 

Well Dave as I said I was being something of a Devils advocate. I’m trying to understand how the organisers got themselves in their starting position and as you say all would have been mentioned. Maybe they analysed the info but went too far? 
 

With regard to point 4 those aren’t the grounds I’m referring to. There have been many moans over the years about money going to Dave Whelan, The Allams etc. that may have made them aim for too many games in Warrington and St Helens. 
 

 

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, pahars said:

Well Dave as I said I was being something of a Devils advocate. I’m trying to understand how the organisers got themselves in their starting position and as you say all would have been mentioned. Maybe they analysed the info but went too far? 
 

With regard to point 4 those aren’t the grounds I’m referring to. There have been many moans over the years about money going to Dave Whelan, The Allams etc. that may have made them aim for too many games in Warrington and St Helens. 
 

 

I understand where you are coming from, but I think some of the issues you list are a little niche. I wouldnt say Wigan and Hull are controversial choices for internationals - a little uninspiring at times when fans want big exciting grounds, but other than quite specific grudges that some hold, I don't think there has been much noise about that. 

I think Wire, Leigh and Saints are just naturally good grounds for the RL to use, as Leeds is in Yorkshire. I recall Sally Bolton saying after 2013 that they had learned that they needed more games at fewer grounds to help costs and logistics. Dutton was part of her team and I just think they have taken that too far without truly considering how much we stretch the fans. All three of those grounds did very well in 2013.

[GUBRATS]

7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not sure we can say that. We don't know what the IRL's fee is, but if they have made £10m from this it will be the biggest financial return ever from a WC. 

Not as successful as it could/should have been doesn't necessarily mean unsuccessful. We need to be careful on that point. 

 

On your last line, I broadly agree. There was plenty to improve on from 2013, but there was a great template of things that worked. 

I didn't say unsuccessful Dave , just not the big step up we all hoped it would be , pretty much every post on this board over the last 12 months has ended with " just hope the WC can provide the boost the game needs "

[Dave T]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

I didn't say unsuccessful Dave , just not the big step up we all hoped it would be , pretty much every post on this board over the last 12 months has ended with " just hope the WC can provide the boost the game needs "

As I say though, if it provides millions of quid, that will be a huge boost. 

For once, and I never thought I'd say this, we do appear to have a very friendly media on our side, and if we are going to be critical of the organisers over sales, they should receive the praise for their work with the media and how they have positioned the tournament with them. 

Let's be honest, some of the crowds have looked really bad on TV, yet we haven't seen the hatchet jobs that we often get around RL, and the attitude to the tournament is still broadly positive. 

A strong finish to the men's tournament, with some big crowds for England, plus the women and wheelchair games showing themselves in a great light on national TV and we can finish with a bang.

Sure, the post mortem will look at many things that should have been better, but if the end result is a large pot of money and a great finals series then that would be a result, particularly within the context of what we've seen so far. 

[theswanmcr]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Funnily enough, the RFL always used to do that, maybe not quite round the whole ground, but the first few rows used to always be the cheap seats at around £10-15 for big games. 

Yes I’d forgotten that. Man United also did/do the same.

[meast]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

Some of the seating plans look like a dodgy Harlequins shirt.

They really should have kept it more simplistic. They have made a right hash, and it really does look like it was done by an outsider.

It's like some psychedelic test card, why so many pricing categories for what are effectively the same seats is mind boggling.

[meast]

5 hours ago, Ragingbull said:

I'll never ever understand the rationale for having different priced tickets for different areas behind the sticks.  Especially in the same block.  Absolute madness.  Blocks NL 3, 4, 5 is just ridiculous why are they different to  S3 or S4?

I think block NL stands for 'no logic'

[meast]

2 hours ago, IM2 said:

christ you guys have far too much time on your hands

Which guys?

[redjonn]

5 hours ago, WN83 said:

I’m not sure it would and sadly I’m not confident there will be particularly good crowds at any of the quarter finals and that IMO is down to errors made and not things like the cost of living crisis. The cost of living plays a part simply because of the costing and the fact so many games are in the same areas. Had it been more affordable and fans had less games to choose from, I think we’d have seen bigger crowds across the board. 

 

I must reiterate there have been successes and the stuff on the field, the stories that come from that and away from the field are great but as an all round tournament, it feels like the experience from the moment you buy the ticket (or try), to when you leave the stadiums, has gone backwards. Did they bite off more than they can afford by having the 4 World Cups running at the same time? I don’t know but the ticketing site, the pre match entertainment, the technical side of things like sound systems and the screens, the feel of an event around the ground, anthems being boomed out on recordings, etc has all felt like there are budget constraints. 
 

Overall I think we’ll end up with a Good World Cup from a playing perspective and some huge positives come from the inclusivity of the World Cup and they could be felt going forward for many years but I’d rate the performance of Dutton and his team as less than average when it comes to delivering a tournament that made you go ‘wow’. There has been too much frustration for that sadly. 

With regard to the non playing aspects i thought at the headingley nz v ireland all the things you mentioned were excellent with a good atmosphere all helped by the sound dj interjecting with upbeat music at various stages of the game...

So at least headingley got it right which makes one wonder if some of the stadium owners didn't put the effort in with the rlwc organisers.

To add Leeds even had the pitch redone with the WC games in mind... compere the pitch at saints cutting up to headingley pitch...

Edited November 3, 2022 by redjonn

[AB Knight]

3091 at the women’s double header at LNER stadium last night. The second biggest RL crowd there in 2022, whether that’s a positive I don’t know. Got my tickets for the next double header there, looking forward to it.

[Snowys Backside]

In regards to the Mens World Cup, I feel we have missed a trick by not playing at York (or did we?)

LSV is a fantastic facility, and probably would have sold out if it was just the one game. Should have had one of the 'Lesser' games at York at maybe one at Craven Park Barrow.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

As I say though, if it provides millions of quid, that will be a huge boost. 

For once, and I never thought I'd say this, we do appear to have a very friendly media on our side, and if we are going to be critical of the organisers over sales, they should receive the praise for their work with the media and how they have positioned the tournament with them. 

Let's be honest, some of the crowds have looked really bad on TV, yet we haven't seen the hatchet jobs that we often get around RL, and the attitude to the tournament is still broadly positive. 

A strong finish to the men's tournament, with some big crowds for England, plus the women and wheelchair games showing themselves in a great light on national TV and we can finish with a bang.

Sure, the post mortem will look at many things that should have been better, but if the end result is a large pot of money and a great finals series then that would be a result, particularly within the context of what we've seen so far. 

A lot of the sentiment will be driven by whether England reach the final. With a sell-out at that following a big crowd at the Arsenal semi, an England women’s semi (at least) and hopefully England winning the wheelchair trophy, the tournament will create massive goodwill and the earlier issues will be forgotten (but hopefully learned from).

An unlikely victory, after almost 50 years of failure, will be another level entirely! 

 

 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

Back to attendances… I think the fact that all sections still have high availability in the East Stand (in front of the TV), and they’re selling all of the £70 sections in it for £55 (and the £85 ones for £70), whilst keeping almost all of the (less visible) West Stand off sale, tells you what sort of crowd we’re looking at for the Wigan match… not good at all…

PS for anyone who looked before and found little other than singles, all price categories including £25 and £35 are back on with availability 

 

[RayCee]

Does anyone know the attendances for the Women's Aus-Cooks and NZ- Fra games?

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Does anyone know the attendances for the Women's Aus-Cooks and NZ- Fra games?

Comment above: 3091?

[Northern Eel]

3 minutes ago, RayCee said:

Does anyone know the attendances for the Women's Aus-Cooks and NZ- Fra games?

A tad over 3k. 
Edit: Thanks @gingerjon, you beat me to it. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Northern Eel

[AB Knight]

3 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

In regards to the Mens World Cup, I feel we have missed a trick by not playing at York (or did we?)

LSV is a fantastic facility, and probably would have sold out if it was just the one game. Should have had one of the 'Lesser' games at York at maybe one at Craven Park Barrow.

Good question. I know when venues were initially announced they picked Workington’s still unbuilt new stadium to host 3 matches (which ended up going to Newcastle) but nothing for York. I was disappointed but then York have been given plenty of women’s games, I’d hope there’s a good 4/5k there next week for the double header.

BUT....it’s hard to say how crowds have held up at York, for whatever reason they decided to stop announcing them after the first few league matches of 2022. Fans have estimated the rest of the league attendances as being anywhere from 800 to 2000 ish. I think venues will already have been chosen before York Knights decided to go all secretive so i doubt it was a factor in the organisers reasoning for not giving York any men’s games but going forwards I hope the club is more transparent and if crowds are promising, shout about it like other clubs do, for whatever reason I feel we struggle to create a buzz at the club.
 

The York public do turn out for some sporting events - obviously the racecourse is usually at capacity. The football club have been getting some 6-7000 crowds in. York Knights have had crowds of 3000-4000 at the last stadium (swelled by away support) and a handful of 3000 ish crowds here at the LNER. There’s a huge target market.
 

In short on the one hand I think a crowd of 6000+ for a men’s group game could have been achieved, on the other hand it wouldn’t have surprised me if a game like Fiji vs Italy at York only got 3675 like it did at Newcastle. A work in progress.

Edited November 3, 2022 by AB Knight

[Archie Gordon]

Double headers are hard to gauge but it looked like a tiny crowd for NZ and a very small crowd for Australia. 3k should look over a third full, shouldn't it?

[AB Knight]

8 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Double headers are hard to gauge but it looked like a tiny crowd for NZ and a very small crowd for Australia. 3k should look over a third full, shouldn't it?

Not quite that simple. The organisers might have given tickets to schools which then didn’t turn up (but still counted the tickets). Fans only staying for the first game or only arriving for the second. Also there’s a 500/600 capacity hospitality area at the back of the main stand where a lot of guests like to watch from.